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Old 11-14-2002, 12:34 PM   #1
David@Vishnu
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Default Vishnu Stg 2 TXS stg 4 comparo

Ok after paper racing both systems the TXS seems to have a significant amount more torque. HP seems the same but I feel TXS has the step on it and go advantage. What say you?
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Old 11-14-2002, 01:04 PM   #2
Need4Boost
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Talk to Dug-e-fresh.

He has had experience with both setups.
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Old 11-14-2002, 01:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Need4Boost
Talk to Dug-e-fresh.

He has had experience with both setups.
Actually Doug has only had experience with both chips, not both exhaust systems and the rest of the parts.

-Nathan
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Old 11-14-2002, 02:24 PM   #4
dug-e-fresh
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My set-up, stuff that matters for Hp:

VF30 turbo
STi Injectors
Walbro 255 Pump
Vishnu Uppipe
Vishnu Sig Exhaust, catless
Vishnu Crank Pulley
NGK 7 Plugs
Blitz SBC iD Boost Controller

SO FAR, my best run with Vishnu Stage 2 Unichip has been [email protected] w/1.831 sixty foot on 17 psi of boost

My best with everything the same except using Turbo XS Stage IV Unichip and more boost was [email protected] w/1.790 sixty foot on ~19 psi of boost.

I am gonna be able to run more boost with the Vishnu Stage 2 set-up, and will have more times tomorrow.... if all goes well.

def
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Old 11-15-2002, 09:46 AM   #5
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Default Jealousy!

I have the exact same setup as Dug minus exhaust and stage 2 map. I have run 13.50 E.T. 1.87 60' at a 5000' altitude. Stock exhaust.

I am trying to get the Signature Exhaust to complete my system as well. Dug, Have you run the TXS exhaust? Sorry I don't have any info to offer. I am simply jealous of Dug for actually laying his hands on a Signature Exhaust.

The Non-Signature Stage 2s are in stock FWIW.

It would seem the TXS maps are more aggressive since the Vishnu exhaust system was the same.

What is the Best TXS stage4 ET out there?
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Old 11-15-2002, 11:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by WRX Harvey


It would seem the TXS maps are more aggressive since the Vishnu exhaust system was the same.

Typical stg4 air fuel chart


Vishnu's stg2 air fuel/boost chart



The way we tune is different, but "more aggressive" might not be the right way to phrase it. I'll let others comment on the success they have had at the track with stg4... My favorite stories come from our road racers though.

-Nathan
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Old 11-16-2002, 03:21 PM   #7
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Last night a Turbo XS Stage IV car and I went to the local track...

Him:

Turbo XS Stage IV
Utec
TXS TMIC
Aggressive Race Gas Map
1.3 bar of boost (18.8 psi)
100+ Octane
Full Interior

12.8 @ 107 on a high 1.8 sixty foot

Me:

Vishnu Stage 2
Sig Series Exhaust
Normal Map
Max 18.5 psi boost
93-94ish Octane (had to add some 93 before I made it to the track)
Full interior minus spare and floor mats ()

12.738 @ 105.88 on a 1.828 sixty foot.

This is my whole run:

60- 1.828
330- 5.246
1/8- 8.128
mph- 85.87
1000- 10.608
1/4- 12.738
mph- 105.88

I think near the top of the track I was having some timing being pulled. Had I been running a slightly higher octance, perhaps 98 or 100, I think I would have trapped near 107 or so... looking @ my 1/8 mile trap normally I pull about 21-22 mph from there to the quarter trap...

def
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Old 11-16-2002, 03:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti


Typical stg4 air fuel chart


Vishnu's stg2 air fuel/boost chart



The way we tune is different, but "more aggressive" might not be the right way to phrase it. I'll let others comment on the success they have had at the track with stg4... My favorite stories come from our road racers though.

-Nathan
Nathan,

It's not feasible to compare wideband readings taken from different widebands. I (and many others worldwide) have reported the Autronic wideband unit (the one we use) to read quite a bit differently from other widebands units. The difference mainly lies in its temperature compensating logic. The resultant differences usually manifest themselves most at higher engine speeds when EGTs are at the highest.

Doug-e-fresh,

Congrats. I'm not entirely surprised the computer pulled back timing towards the top en of your run. We've recorded some pretty high intake temps from high-hp WRXs with stock intercoolers under prolonged boost. Same thing happens when we do repeated run-after-run dyno pulls without cool-down. Knock correction goes negative (well, actually less positive). It's just on of the ways the factory computer keeps your engine in one piece. More of an issue with pump gas than with race gas, of course.

Just my 2c,
shiv

Last edited by Vishnu Performance; 11-16-2002 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 11-16-2002, 05:22 PM   #9
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by dug-e-fresh

This is my whole run:

60- 1.828
330- 5.246
1/8- 8.128
mph- 85.87
1000- 10.608
1/4- 12.738
mph- 105.88

def [/b]
That's good stuff doug! I bet your happy. Can I drive your car again? Pretty please?

-- Rich
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


Nathan,

It's not feasible to compare wideband readings taken from different widebands. I (and many others worldwide) have reported the Autronic wideband unit (the one we use) to read quite a bit differently from other widebands units. The difference mainly lies in its temperature compensating logic. The resultant differences usually manifest themselves most at higher engine speeds when EGTs are at the highest.
,
shiv
Not to prolong this... but we use the same wideband as far as I know...

Doug,
Good job! As you know I’ve been cheering for you.

-Nathan
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti


Not to prolong this... but we use the same wideband as far as I know...
If that's the case, sorry. Which one do you use?

Shiv
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:32 PM   #12
nmyeti
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


If that's the case, sorry. Which one do you use?

Shiv
Ours is an Autronic unit. I don't know the actual "model number" on the box, but when I stop by the office tomorrow I’ll check it out. I assume that any of the Autronic units with output for data logging are going to process the 5-volt signal in much the same way.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:37 PM   #13
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The correct one Thanks Michael
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:41 PM   #14
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Thanks guys! I appreciate the responses... TTYL

def
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Old 11-16-2002, 07:45 PM   #15
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti


Ours is an Autronic unit. I don't know the actual "model number" on the box, but when I stop by the office tomorrow I’ll check it out. I assume that any of the Autronic units with output for data logging are going to process the 5-volt signal in much the same way.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
That's not entirely true. The model a and model b box are calibrated for different sensors-- both of which offer different response characteristics at the lean and rich end of the spectrum. I have a pretty good idea of this since I have both models (with both sensors), one which I take on tuning trips and the other which stays on the dyno. Also keep in mind that wideband sensors will read differently as they approach the end of their livespans-- reading leaner as they get older. Not to mention that absolute a/f numbers will depend on where they are monitored in the exhaust system. Mounted post-catalyst like many folks do, they tend to misread due to the oxygen catalyzing effects of the catalytic converters. This is one of the reasons we do all preliminary stage kit tuning with the sensor installed in our up-pipe (in it's extra o2 bung) before any cat. It's only until later in the process that we resort to tailpipe sniffing for the sake of laziness. General consensus among those who have used more than one dyno for tuning/development is that it's not very accurate to compare dyno logged a/f ratios between different dynos/different conditions as it is to compare absolute dyno numbers. Little deeper into the subject that I wanted to go. Back to the topic

Cheers,
shiv

Last edited by Vishnu Performance; 11-16-2002 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 11-16-2002, 09:07 PM   #16
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Wink My lord I'm long winded!

Back to the topic... I can't say for the TXS stage 4 kit as for most of us it's not financially feesable to test both out (and the two companies have different tuning methods/philosophies.) It's not news that I'm pro Vishnu, just as there are many people also happy w/ TXS components... It's simply a personal choice which company you choose to go with. Realistically, the TXS4 & VS2 will likely show similar results at the drag strip and on the street. I'd be curious to see a real world road test conducted of the two, but such tests are invariably difficult at best. Maybe someone should work on a nice article for SCC.

Fact is the Vishnu products are undeniably more expensive, but most of this is due to their no-compromises approach which will cost more. I guess the best way to describe the Vishnu products (I'll agree the battery tie down is a little out there) is more akin to something you'd expect from a highly skilled custom fabrication shop rather than a shop targetted at high-volume high-profit sales. The detail of quality is impeccable of all their products. In fact I would say that their signature series downpipe fits BETTER than the stock unit, and this with a 3" cat, and divorced dump tube. The welds are among the best I've ever seen. The clamps seal perfectly and fully the first time out (and require less effort to seal up than most smaller exhaust components including the stock unit.) Angles are a perfectly aligned for the entire legnth of the exhaust. Pulley's are perfectly balanced. Uppipes fit perfect w/ a very logical location for wideband O2 placement. In the end it is really hard to find flaw in the execution of their products, and this isn't even hitting on the tuning side of things (which is even more important.)

The best way to describe the Vishnu tuning philosophy is one of max power, but not to the point of compromising the safety/reliability of the motor. This is their philosophy and one that is at the very heart of their company. Vishnu in the Hindu religion is known as the "Great Preserver," or one who "sustains" and finds/achieves "balance"; while Brahma is the "creator" (which it could be said that Vishnu (the company) also does.) Vishnu initially strictly did tuning, but has since branched into the creating new products realm. In the end though the sence of balance that is Vishnu (both meanings) shows up in everything that comes from them. In the US though their company can best be surmised by the saying, "Anything worth doing is worth doing right."

Yes, they've had their share of problems in the past w/ customer service as they grew because of their current load, but this has changed quite a bit as of late. It is now rare that you cannot contact them for a question, comment, complaint, or order. If you have a problem or complaint Brett, Shiv, or Ken will do what they can to work with you and make things right. (At least this has always been my experience.) The only front they seem to still have some trouble on is the email, but I've seen that improve quite a bit as well.

Vishnu is growing just as our entire Subaru community has grown dramatically over the last year. One thing for certain though is that the Subaru community is certain to get even bigger over the next couple of years, and that all of the competitors will have to grow, expand, and change over time to cope with things. One thing I know though is that Shiv and Vishnu and hardly ever content to just sit on their laurels.

--Matt

Last edited by Obsidian; 11-16-2002 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 11-16-2002, 10:03 PM   #17
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A friend of mine and I frequently get into pulls on the street... he runs Turbo XS Stage IV... with the topmount and the Utec... I of course run the Vishnu Stage 2...

Normally its who ever kicks it first who wins... but the other day we got on it the SAME time and we were literally DEAD EVEN!

def
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Old 11-16-2002, 11:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


That's not entirely true.

<BIG SNIP>

Cheers,
shiv


Shiv,
My post of the two plots was for simple comparison to show that boost, and air-fuel ratios are in the same ball park not to say one is better than the other or to say that all Vishnu kits run at 11.2:1 where as all txs kits are at 10.5:1.

There seems to be an erroneous notion going around that TXS is more aggressive and that Vishnu is more concerned with reliability. In the end it's marketing or "I-club" fluff.

Both kits are comparable, and from looking at Doug’s track results, I’d say that the power levels he is NOW running are very much in line with what most stage4 cars will make assuming a proper install. I'd even go so far as to say that it's likely a very reliable setup for him assuming he can manage to keep the boost under control, but that is a whole different issue.

You'll not get an argument from Turboxs that full exhaust system; VF30, STI injectors, Up-pipe and a unichip make a nice kit. If nothing else, we at least agree on that.

Anyway back to your regularly scheduled I-club post...

-Nathan
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Old 11-16-2002, 11:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti


There seems to be an erroneous notion going around that TXS is more aggressive and that Vishnu is more concerned with reliability. In the end it's marketing or "I-club" fluff.
I agree that each respective company should let their track record with regards to catastrophic engine failure speak for themselves.

Shiv
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Old 11-16-2002, 11:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jealousy!

Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


I agree that each respective company should let their track record with regards to catastrophic engine failure speak for themselves.

Shiv
I can live with that...

-Nathan
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Old 11-16-2002, 11:48 PM   #21
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psst... don't forget about the fuel pump...
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Old 11-17-2002, 12:11 AM   #22
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For the record I did not mean to further imply that TXS was not concerned w/ reliability. Afterall, if they didn't care at all then people would stop bying their kits most likely (as happened to at least one turbo setup in the Miata community.) Anyone can have the potential to kill an engine: modified or even stock. So from a sheer probability standpoint there will likely eventually be someone somewhere that'll have problems. The only thing that I can say though for a fact was that last time I went to one of the local tracks (road course, not drag strip) there was a guy running the TXS Stage 4 kit. He was obviously having a bad day. I spoke w/ him for a bit and he said that he was having massive problems mostly w/ his EGT's wanting to go dangerously North (read 1700+. ) This was w/ the TXS UniChip, TXS IC, and everything. Needless to say he was quite upset he was being passed by Miata's on the straights b/c he couldn't get on the power safely on the track. I didn't go into detail w/ the man as I had to get ready for my session. FWIW when I ran that day in my Stage 0 WRX (stock IC) EGT's never went North of 1600f. I'm not saying that all instances of the TXS kits or stage 4 kits are, will, or do manifest themselves like this, but either way it was enough to scare me away from personally doing business w/ TXS (in regards to their UniChip tuning.) It's entirely possiable that this may be an isolated case and I hope it is, but this was my encounter w/ the TXS Stage 4 which wasn't exactly confidence inspiring.

--Matt
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Old 11-17-2002, 08:14 AM   #23
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This tread used to be about Doug's great run in his Vishnu stage 2 set up. But since everyone got a hair up ther ass whether Vishnu or Turboxs is the best. "The proof is in the pudding" how many 12 second Turboxs cars are there versus Vishnu?. Obsidian ( You do a great Marc Anthony ) I have 44k on my car and have been turboxs since 6k and no worries. You spoke of The "NO COMPROMISE" approach by Vishnu. You should ask Doug about this, or better yet how about the NO COMPROMISE product developement such as the Turboxs management system (utec) that allows you to run different maps,gas,boost etc with a flip of a switch while not cutting one wire versus that of the Vishnu that everytime the gas, and weather change you have to disconnect your hacked wires and send it to Shiv for a remap and hope its right. Obsidian Thanks for the lesson in Hindu it was quite enlightening. Does Obsidian mean anything in Hindu? If it does I bet its "wanker" Regards Michael

Last edited by mikaust; 11-17-2002 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 11-17-2002, 08:56 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikaust
This tread used to be about Doug's great run in his Vishnu stage 2 set up. But since everyone got a hair up ther ass whether Vishnu or Turboxs is the best.

<cut>

Obsidian Thanks for the lesson in Hindu it was quite enlighting. Does Obsidian mean anything in Hindu? If it does I bet its "wanker" Regards Michael
wrong, this "tread" used to be about comparing Vishnu stage 2 to TurboXS stage 4.

d-e-f gave some results and opinions, and then we got some interesting discussion between 2 very knowledgable TurboXS and Vishnu people, which may have drifted slightly off topic, but in the spirit of making direct comparisions.

I agree that Obsidian's post of trying to explain the origin of the Vishnu name seemed slightly out of place. But, not enough to make him a "wanker"
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Old 11-17-2002, 09:43 AM   #25
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I am sorry you're right the original tread was Vishnu 2 versus The Turboxs stage 4. Doug is a good friend so I was just happy he ran a 12.7 on the Vishnu 2 system. As for my remarks toward Obsidian well just read his posts and you too will understand the ways of a "wanker". Boy I hope I didn't hurt his feelings. Thanks Michael
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