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Old 05-12-2008, 11:23 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout255 View Post
I'm amazed people are still defending this based upon a few youtube videos.....
This is the internet, denial is a suitable replacement for facts.
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:33 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by djerickd View Post
nice, is your Miata on the AL-20 kit?

Correct. I am also going to be adding a Meth kit from Snow Performance to see just how many miles we can get. I should be able to have all this done by months end. Just depends on when I can get everything in the car and back on the rollers.

Dustin
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:52 PM   #53
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thats awesome Dustin, props to you on making it work. thats interesting with the meth, I've got methanol now and want to run HHO also.
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:12 PM   #54
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about all this energy input and output business:

the energy of the universe is in fact fixed.
ALL of the energy on this Earth essentially comes from the sun.

Photovoltaic cell progress aside, Solar vehicles are still pretty sketchy depending on region.

That being said, it is theorized that all life on the planet came from photosynthetic algae terraforming the atmosphere (the algae later became plants that we now see).

Craig Venter, the same guy who sequenced the genome, has found that under the right conditions, these algae produce hydrogen (presence of a metal catalyst in some cases, although the situation can be manipulated without it.)

This allows solar power to create hydrogen from hydrolysis. Solar power is, essentially, our source of "free energy" ultimately because as long as the sun is here as long as we are here. When it's gone, so are we. Ultimately it makes the most sense, at least to me.



So yeah, I'm really hoping to work on hydrogen production from the algae eventually as it's of great interest to me.

I truly feel like it seems viable, and although the current literature (do a wiki search and read the cited articles. you can find most on google or lexisnexis) suggests you'd need a farm the size of texas to supply THE WHOLE WORLD with power, they are also forgetting that algae exist in an aquatic environment. The whole system could be made aquatic. The ocean has more than enough space, and what the heck, our oil rigs are already out there.


That being said, if one of these plants explodes, it's going to make a petrol refinery explosion look like childs play.


See prakitant's "hindenberg" reference.


Any thoughts from the smart folks on here?

I'm really thinking of applying for that PHD in biochemistry right about now.
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Old 05-14-2008, 12:30 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by TheRipler View Post
I'd be more inclined to give it a fair shake if HHO's proponents were versed in physics and spelling.

Ouch! IWTTST.

In the Op's defense, Myth Busters is often full of sheeeite.

They "debunked" the brown frequency weapons, and I know for certain that there are weapons designed to make you run from your bunker, pooping and losing control of all bodily functions. They use sub-sonic frequencies which can actually stop the heart at close enough range/high enough volume.



SOTC
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Old 05-14-2008, 01:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by saab-on-the-cobb View Post
I know for certain that there are weapons designed to make you run from your bunker, pooping and losing control of all bodily functions. They use sub-sonic frequencies which can actually stop the heart at close enough range/high enough volume.



SOTC

"the brown note" this would be so funny to use on people
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Old 05-14-2008, 02:17 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by saab-on-the-cobb View Post
Ouch! IWTTST.
I tried to look it up.

MythBusters left the scientific method behind after season 1. HHO vendors have apparently never thought about it, from what I have seen. I try to keep an open mind, but no one has explained the process to my satisfaction.
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:56 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Coolingmist View Post
mythbusters had an episode on the recently. They did substantial tests.
If substantial means they completely sealed off the throat of the carburetor with a metal plate allowing only the flow of air through a tiny tube from a sealed container with some water and a crappy hho setup, then YEAH the test was substantial.

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Originally Posted by djerickd View Post
Was it a Pass or FAIL?
You can't fail when you don't have an actual test, their attempt was a joke.

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Originally Posted by jays05 View Post
It was a complete failure as I recall. Myth busted.
If Adam and Jamie (special effects guys) say so, then it must be "busted".


Seriously though, I understand the physics behind why the hho "generators" can't produce enough energy to recover what it takes to split the hydrogen and oxygen but unless I'm missing something in that poor excuse of a "test", a lot of people are seriously taking mythbusters too seriously. I mean you actually have that much faith in a couple of guys who tried to eat through metal bars by electrifying salsa? Give me a break!

I've actually been on their site and tried to get some support in requesting they actually put a little more effort into the hho trial in some kind of retest, but several of the guys there actually go OT on anyone who asks questions about hho or supports it in any way. Go figure
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Old 05-15-2008, 03:02 AM   #59
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I've actually been on their site and tried to get some support in requesting they actually put a little more effort into the hho trial in some kind of retest, but several of the guys there actually go OT on anyone who asks questions about hho or supports it in any way. Go figure
It happens here too It's a conspiracy!! There is always contraversy around this subject it seems, I've even read about a few early pioneers being mysteriously killed over their HHO research. COINCIDENCE?!
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:03 AM   #60
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There is nothing magic about HHO. It's just an oxidizer and a fuel in one gaseous mixture. If you are running it for fuel mileage improvement, you need to include the costs of generating the HHO, there is nothing "free" about the energy.
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:09 PM   #61
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The fact that this thread wasn't over by post #2 is proof science education fails.

First law of thermodynamics. /thread.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:36 AM   #62
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I just read though this whole thing and need to give my opinion on this hho stuff, for the past few month I have been doing a lot of research on this and this is my idea of how it can work to increase gas mileage, now like many here have said an engine is only about 25% efficient so that leaves us with 75% waste and a 75% area to improve upon. Now if a gas engine was all ready 100% efficient then there would be no room to improve and adding on removing anything would only hurt it.

So you say that because it takes energy from the engine to make the hydrogen then there is no way it could help it. But here is how I think it can, in an engine a percentage of the fuel that goes in the cylinder doesn't even get burned and just goes out the exhaust so what the hydrogen dose being a gas and being volatile helps to burn up that gas that would be other wise wasted. Also when hydrogen is burned it turns into water this water helps to cool the engine allowing you to, with a proper tune, run a leaner AF ratio with out melting things and there by using less fuel.

Now this is just my idea of how this can work like people claim, I am currently working on building a hho generator for my car and will test it out and see how it goes, and until I do that I don't care why it wont work until I see for my self. And for running a car on hho alone the only way that could be done is if you had a hho cell that was over 100% efficient, but that's not what I'm going for I just want to make my gas engine more efficient.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ioku View Post
I just read though this whole thing and need to give my opinion on this hho stuff, for the past few month I have been doing a lot of research on this and this is my idea of how it can work to increase gas mileage, now like many here have said an engine is only about 25% efficient so that leaves us with 75% waste and a 75% area to improve upon. Now if a gas engine was all ready 100% efficient then there would be no room to improve and adding on removing anything would only hurt it.

So you say that because it takes energy from the engine to make the hydrogen then there is no way it could help it. But here is how I think it can, in an engine a percentage of the fuel that goes in the cylinder doesn't even get burned and just goes out the exhaust so what the hydrogen dose being a gas and being volatile helps to burn up that gas that would be other wise wasted. Also when hydrogen is burned it turns into water this water helps to cool the engine allowing you to, with a proper tune, run a leaner AF ratio with out melting things and there by using less fuel.

Now this is just my idea of how this can work like people claim, I am currently working on building a hho generator for my car and will test it out and see how it goes, and until I do that I don't care why it wont work until I see for my self. And for running a car on hho alone the only way that could be done is if you had a hho cell that was over 100% efficient, but that's not what I'm going for I just want to make my gas engine more efficient.
You are doing nothing to increase the efficiency of the engine. You do know that you are already putting hydrogen into your engine now right??? Gasoline is a hydrocarbon (hydrogen+carbon) in various ratios depending on the type. More usable energy is released from the oxidation of carbon than hydrogen (I don't know how many times I have said this in this thread) look at the BSFC of diesel vs. gasoline engines and compare the carbon ratio.

Yes some fuel is not fully oxidized before the exhaust cycle and thus goes out the exhaust. You aren't changing any of that by adding hydrogen or burning it during the combustion process. You are still using the same inefficient "pump" that you were before you aren't doing anything to help it pump better (using waste energy to drive a compressor) or make it more efficient. You are only burning a fuel (one that is there already) with the same thermal loss, same pumping loss, same friction loss, and you haven't changed the stroke so time/event is the same at a given rpm. You have added extra load to the same process so in a perfect world the best you can have is equal BSFC.

I don't know where people got the idea that buring hydrogen can somehow cool anything. It releases energy (exothermic) the resulting steam will be very hot. It is HOT expanding gasses that drive the piston down.

The only way I would ever buy into this whole idea (and I never will) would be if I was presented with actual data normalized to BSFC. This will never happen because it isn't possible and how can you sell bogus science with a paper that proves it can't work. I can say "the earth is flat" but that doesn't make it fact it just means I'm an idiot. Everyone knows the earth is round but I could probably get a few to believe otherwise. Everyone knows this "technology" is bogus but a few still buy into it everytime gas prices get high. Electrolosis is nothing new and these same "kits" started advertising when gas prices went up in the 1970s. We still haven't figured out how to defy the laws of physics even though technology has advanced.

If this technology actually worked every power company on the planet would be using it. It's one thing to accuse the oil companies of suppressing the idea. To think that an electrical power generating company (large corporations) would not implement technology that would reduce their $$/Kw generating cost thus increasing their profit margin (your bill would remain the same I'm sure) is just plain gullible.


R/ Jacob

Last edited by di2co; 05-22-2008 at 01:16 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:18 PM   #64
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I am not picking sides.

I do have one concern. If the Hydrogen and oxygen gas is collected inside the same chamber, what if a spark occurs from a less-than-perfect electrical joint on the electros.

Perfect O/H ratio...
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:21 AM   #65
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BOOM! I'm assuming...
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:48 AM   #66
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I installed an HHO system on my F150. The engine puts out 7 to 10 more rwhp. No dyno papers used g-tech meter. The cell puts out over 1.5 lpm of HHO@ 23amps.
Mark
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:07 AM   #67
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Please post pics of the system installed.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:34 PM   #68
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:57 PM   #69
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I

Your comment about just adding a battery in your trunk..... Where do you think that the energy stored in the battery is going to come from????? whether or not you run it from the alternator or a battery charger in your garage, you still paid for that energy!

I don't think anyone is arguing about what the exterior cost of running this machine might be. The fact is the amount of money spent charging a battery in my garage would be far less then the $4.15/gallon for 85 octane that I have to pay.

If this system in fact can promote better combustion of the gasoline going through the motor then the efficiency of the process to make the hydrogen does not really matter. You are not trying to run the motor with the hydrogen. You are still running the motor from gas. So comparing this to a perpetual motion machine is off track.

I am not sure if I believe the theory completely but I also think that the physics minded people are not including all variables to the process when they are trying to debunk it.

The only solution to this for me is to make one and see. If anything, it will be fun to build. Good electronics and fabrication practice. If it fails. who cares. It is cheap to make.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:21 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by maxc View Post
I installed an HHO system on my F150. The engine puts out 7 to 10 more rwhp. No dyno papers used g-tech meter. The cell puts out over 1.5 lpm of HHO@ 23amps.
Mark
have you been able to calculate the gas savings at all?
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:22 PM   #71
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The only solution to this for me is to make one and see. If anything, it will be fun to build. Good electronics and fabrication practice. If it fails. who cares. It is cheap to make.
I agree, someone post up a DIY
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:42 PM   #72
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The fact is the amount of money spent charging a battery in my garage would be far less then the $4.15/gallon for 85 octane that I have to pay.
You know this, or you think this?
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by OnetwelleO View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing about what the exterior cost of running this machine might be. The fact is the amount of money spent charging a battery in my garage would be far less then the $4.15/gallon for 85 octane that I have to pay.

If this system in fact can promote better combustion of the gasoline going through the motor then the efficiency of the process to make the hydrogen does not really matter. You are not trying to run the motor with the hydrogen. You are still running the motor from gas. So comparing this to a perpetual motion machine is off track.

I am not sure if I believe the theory completely but I also think that the physics minded people are not including all variables to the process when they are trying to debunk it.

The only solution to this for me is to make one and see. If anything, it will be fun to build. Good electronics and fabrication practice. If it fails. who cares. It is cheap to make.
Efficiency of the process to generate the hydrogen most certainly does matter if you are using the engine to generate the current to do it. Why don't you explain all of the variables to me since I'm obviously missing something. To think that you will somehow get more work out of your engine if you are using it to "generate" fuel to burn is pretty much the text book definition of a perpetual motion machine.

If you think about it, you are using the engine to generate current to split water and somehow when you combine the components inside the engine not only are you going to get the energy it took to split it in the first place but somehow have "leftover" energy to move the car? If you follow that "theory" to it's conclusion you find that it tells you you could start the car with gasoline and once hydrogen was being generated you could stop the flow of gasoline. You wouldn't need it because you are getting more energy from burning the hydrogen than the electrolysis process requires. In reality even in a perfect world the best you could do is achieve the same BSFC you had before hydrogen injection. In reality you will end up with a net loss.

I have already stated that you could gain some efficiency if you used a source other than the engine for current. How far do you think you are going to get with one car battery (or several) supplying a constant 23 amp load without recharging it? Given that as a general rule electrolosis of water takes 3 times more energy than the oxidation of hydrogen releases. Electrolysis is very inefficient only being somewhat cost effective if you are using solar or waste energy to support it.

A liter of gaseous H2 has crap for energy, a cubic foot is roughly equal to .009 gallons of gasoline pressure dependant. 23amps is more energy than you could ever possibly get out of hydrogen combusting it at 1 lpm. One cubic foot equals 28.3 litres. For the record one cubic foot of H2 = 324.3 btu.

R/ Jacob
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:27 PM   #74
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You know this, or you think this?
Well its sure mot going to cost you $4.15 in electricity to charge a car battery if you are paying 10 cents per Kilowatt hour for electricity that would mean your little 12V battery would have to take 41 Kilowatt hours of power for it to cost the same as 1 gal of gas at 4.15, it would take over 20 12V battery's to equal that much power.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:02 AM   #75
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I can't wait to get this going on the scooby, here's a basic vid on how it's done:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/938147...usehold_items/
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