Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday March 29, 2024
Home Forums Images WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.







* As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. 
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-16-2002, 02:26 AM   #1
impreza2002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 30428
Join Date: Nov 2002
Vehicle:
1999 Impreza 2.5RS
RALLY BLUE

Default what is the purpose of steele brake line???

Hi,
I want to know will I get better braking when I have the "steele brake line"? Which will provide better braking, the "steele brake line" or a racing "brake pads"? Thanks
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
impreza2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 12-16-2002, 02:38 AM   #2
SonicYellowWRX
Guest
 
Member#: 23351
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: i <3 drifting
Vehicle:
Pika Chu!
TEAM DARRIIFFFTAA

Default

its less likely to flex or collapse under pressure. this keeps the brake pressure consistant and where it is supposed to be.
SonicYellowWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 02:39 AM   #3
SonicYellowWRX
Guest
 
Member#: 23351
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: i <3 drifting
Vehicle:
Pika Chu!
TEAM DARRIIFFFTAA

Default

stainless steel braided lines with good brake pads will make a noticable increase in braking.
SonicYellowWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 09:04 AM   #4
xstar
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10821
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
2008 WRB STi

Default

Stainless Steel (SS) Braided Brake lines: give your brake pedal a firm and consistent *feel* over repeated hard braking. This modification will not affect your braking distance. (notice I said feel) The idea is the SS braid will not flex like the oem rubber line under pressure and heat from repeated braking

Most aftermarket brake pads will give you better stop distance (shorter)... But you'd have to research that for specific details.

Race Brake Pads: works better under higher operating temperatures, since you're racing (repeated hard stops over long periods of time). This is usually at the expense of poor low temperature braking (ie: driving around town, on the highway) where the pad is cold.

If you want shorter stopping distance, get larger rotors... But research and think about what this means to your calipers and your wheels before plunging...
xstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 09:27 AM   #5
impreza2002
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 30428
Join Date: Nov 2002
Vehicle:
1999 Impreza 2.5RS
RALLY BLUE

Default

Hi,
I dont want to spend that much money for upgrade my brake! So I dont think I will get the rotor change. For now I am looking forward for a new brake pads. Can anyone suggest me a good brake pads, and should I get the "high performance- street brake pads" or the "race brake pad"? Thanks a lot!
impreza2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 09:51 AM   #6
spidey02wrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 17701
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Queens, NYC
Default

If you're not "racing" don't get "race brake pads"

seriously, DO NOT get brake pads that are meant for high temp. applications (like racing) for driving around normally. Your stopping distances will be longer, and it will be VERY dangerous. Brakes are not something to mess around with, and race pads are not like some badge you can put on your car to impress people with. Get an uprated street pad, you will enjoy the increase in brake performance.

mark
spidey02wrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 10:39 AM   #7
tdxflex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13634
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Boston
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by spidey02wrx
If you're not "racing" don't get "race brake pads"

seriously, DO NOT get brake pads that are meant for high temp. applications (like racing) for driving around normally. Your stopping distances will be longer, and it will be VERY dangerous. Brakes are not something to mess around with, and race pads are not like some badge you can put on your car to impress people with. Get an uprated street pad, you will enjoy the increase in brake performance.

mark
just to reinforce, the difference between race and street are their operating temps. everyone's probably seen nascar dudes swerving around on the pace lap, they're warming up their tires to get to their operating temperature faster. if you can't keep up the temperature, race pads will definately be worse. so stick with street pads like axxis ultimates, hawk hps, there are a bunch more.
tdxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 10:43 AM   #8
rkkwan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5596
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston, TX
Vehicle:
2010 Honda Fit Sport
Black

Default

Like what people have said thousands of times on this board, if you want to stop fast on the street, get better tires.

I do track days with dedicated race pads. But what do I use on the street/highway? OEM Subaru pads. They stop great, and I never thought "Oh, I need better brake pads", even though I drive pretty fast and wild on the freeway.

-Ray
rkkwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 03:37 PM   #9
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

I've heard the SS Brake line with stock calipers does nothing, since there's a lot of flex in the stock caliper alone.
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 08:19 PM   #10
North Ursalia
Miss You Mom
Oct 1940 - Feb 2008

Super Moderator
 
Member#: 809
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: NH, Land Of Many Trees
Vehicle:
2000 2.5 RS, '14 For
92 5MT SVX

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mtb_dude
I've heard the SS Brake line with stock calipers does nothing, since there's a lot of flex in the stock caliper alone.
How exactly do you get cast iron to flex ?


Brian
http://www.northursalia.com
http://www.imprezamods.com
http://www.scoobymods.com
http://www.deniedmywarranty.org
North Ursalia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 09:57 PM   #11
Red-Impreza
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3884
Join Date: Jan 2001
Thumbs up

With the exception of that stock caliper flex comment, the advice above is all good.

I got the SS brake lines for 2 reasons. 1. I wanted a firmer pedal feel. It makes it easier to heel-toe downshift. My brake pedal now firms high enough to allow me to cover both the brake and gas with one foot. 2. I (used to) rallycross alot and I wanted a little protection for my brake lines. I've had branches and rocks and crap get stuck up in my wheel wells and I didn't want to cut a brake line.

I also have a mild race pad on my stock brakes. I did this because I felt that the stock pads were _too_ grabby. I wanted a more linear feel to my brakes. On the stock pads, as soon as you touch the brakes, you get immediate stopping power. It can be a little too much if you just wanted to shift the weight of the car or slow down a little. They can be a little exciting the first time you hit them on a cold morning if you forget. I usually drag them a little on the way out of the subdivision.

You might look into EBC Greenstuff pads. I have no experience with them, but if their advertising is to be believed they're a good autocrossing pad and don't require any warm up.

To each his own, your milage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer then they appear.

Red-Impreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2002, 10:41 AM   #12
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by North Ursalia


How exactly do you get cast iron to flex ?

Take a cast iron "I" beam, place a penny in the middle and pull out your handy dandy laser measuring device and notice it flexed! The stock calipers are push type calipers, not clamp type. Which means that as you apply braking force, the caliper is literally trying to pry it self apart, with the rotor caught in the crossroads. Now look at a Boxter (not S) brake caliper and look how HUGE it is compared to ours. It is not cast but a billet machined piece of steel. (Casting is the weakest forming method, forging and machining are far better.) This is Porsches normal non high performance caliper. Finally, go outside, take off a front wheel, have your friend pump the brakes with the car running and stare at the caliper. It flexes, and you didn't even have to take my word on it.

Edited: For maximum nicety.

Last edited by mtb_dude; 12-19-2002 at 10:13 AM.
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2002, 10:52 AM   #13
mrbell
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1871
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

sarcasm of the above aside, the reason the stock calipers flex(mostly) is because of machining tolerances... Once some presure is applied, the slop gets taken up, and it's pretty solid after that... SS lines do make a difference
mrbell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2002, 11:22 AM   #14
LyveWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 19057
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: The Lost Valley, Detroit, MI
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
& Blue Ford & '72 CB350

Default Any thing will...

Any thing will flex if enough force is used.


I'm sure that our stock caliper is not the best, but I would consider that each component of the system adds flex.

On Bicycle Calipers it is easy to see the flex, hard to see the compression in the cable casing. You will definately notice if a better (less compressible) casing is used.

I think the same rule would apply in this case, IE: even though the caliper will still flex the casing of the hose will expand less w/ the SS so if you would notice the difference in calipers then you would definately notice the difference in the SS vs. rubber w/ internal steel lines.


(Really its a consideration of scale, I could design Kevlar/rubber brake lines that shouldn't expand at the pressures involved. the question becomes: Would it be worth it? Can you tell the difference?)

nick

PS: Casting is not always the weakest forming method.
LyveWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2002, 11:28 AM   #15
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

BTW, that was meant to be light sarcasm, and not attacking sarcasm. Sorry if that came across that way. But you have to realize a lot of the information on this board (escpecially lately) is being spun by vendors, not that it's entirely a bad thing. Me and two friends of mine are mechanical engineers and it's hard to listen to quasi-engineering sometimes. But we've evaluated SS brake lines and saw the caliper flexes even more and we've found a 5-10% increase in firmness at most. Not worth the time and money, and yes we bleeded them correctly. Get better calipers first, or try Greenstuffs for the cheapo solution that will actually make a difference.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to save people money.
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2002, 07:12 PM   #16
Subie Gal
GC84Ever
Super Moderator
 
Member#: 301
Join Date: Sep 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: WA
Vehicle:
1970 FF-1 & '70 Van
02 WRX/01 RS

Default

[sarcasm mode on]

Quote:
and yes we bleeded them correctly
that would be "bled"..... bleeded is not a word

[sarcasm mode off]

US Rallyists like them for the protection factor mainly...
Reduces the chance of a rock piercing your lines...
been known to happen


Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
SubieGal Rally Posters available now!!
*******************
www.allsubaru.com
Subie Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2002, 11:51 PM   #17
angus
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10664
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: nh
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mtb_dude BTW, that was meant to be light sarcasm, and not attacking sarcasm. Sorry if that came across that way. But you have to realize a lot of the information on this board (escpecially lately) is being spun by vendors, not that it's entirely a bad thing. Me and two friends of mine are mechanical engineers and it's hard to listen to quasi-engineering sometimes. But we've evaluated SS brake lines and saw the caliper flexes even more and we've found a 5-10% increase in firmness at most. Not worth the time and money, and yes we bleeded them correctly. Get better calipers first, or try Greenstuffs for the cheapo solution that will actually make a difference.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to save people money.
5-10% of what? from what? to what? How did you messure firmness?
angus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 12:15 AM   #18
Red-Impreza
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3884
Join Date: Jan 2001
Wink

Quote:
SS lines with stock caliper is throwing money away.
That depends on what you're looking for. Will they reduce braking distance, obviously not. Personaly, my main purpose was for off road protection. However, I was pleasantly suprised at how much of a difference the SS lines made in pedal feel. (Speaking purely subjectively, from personal experience - no engineering analysis performed.) I suppose I could be equally suprised at how much difference higher quality calipers would make. I don't know. I don't have them.

BTW: There are (or at least used to be) quite a few engineers on the board (like, myself for instance). Be sure you're specific about what is opinion, theory, and empirical data.

Red-Impreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 07:46 AM   #19
jblaine
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8512
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 WRX chassis...
stage-infinity.com

Default

Foot dyno, Angus. Foot dyno.
jblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 09:37 AM   #20
mrbell
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1871
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mtb_dude
BTW, that was meant to be light sarcasm, and not attacking sarcasm. ... Not worth the time and money, and yes we bleeded them correctly. Get better calipers first, or try Greenstuffs for the cheapo solution that will actually make a difference.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to save people money.
Oh, I know it was sarcasm, I didn't want you to think I was seriously defending the penny on the i-beam thing... :-)
also, most stainless lines aren't any more expensive than a good set of pads and they also won't stop caliper flex....
calipers will be WAY more expensive, altho the best solution combined w/ better brake lines, obviously...
mrbell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 10:09 AM   #21
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Angus

5-10% of what? from what? to what? How did you messure firmness?
Angus:
sed -e ' s/5-10%/barely perceptible/g'
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 10:16 AM   #22
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mrbell

most stainless lines aren't any more expensive than a good set of pads and they also won't stop caliper flex....
You're totally right. However the increase coefficient of dynamic friction on the pad will need less force for an equivalent braking torque, effectively eliminating the flex effect, which is a big reason (although certainly not the only reason) that our brakes feel mushy. But the pads will only reduce braking distance, not change feel.
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 10:23 AM   #23
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Red-Imp


Will they reduce braking distance, obviously not.

...

BTW: There are (or at least used to be) quite a few engineers on the board (like, myself for instance). Be sure you're specific about what is opinion, theory, and empirical data.

And if they don't reduce braking distance, would you not agree that there is the same amount of flex in the system? Afterall, you're moving the brake pedal the same distance, the hoses are no longer giving, and there is no more normal force on the rotor than there was before. Think about it.

As for the large amount of engineers on this board, I'm well aware, and quite used to peer review. (ie thick skin)
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 10:25 AM   #24
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Subie Gal

US Rallyists like them for the protection factor mainly...
Reduces the chance of a rock piercing your lines...
been known to happen
That's the first person I've seen to come up with a good reason to use them - offroad.
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2002, 10:54 AM   #25
Red-Impreza
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3884
Join Date: Jan 2001
Lightbulb

Quote:
you're moving the brake pedal the same distance,
No, actually, I'm not. That's what I was trying to say above:

Quote:
My brake pedal now firms high enough to allow me to cover both the brake and gas with one foot.
Sorry, that might not have been very clear. The pedal firms up with noticably less travel. It makes it easier for people with less then size 11's to put one side of the foot on the brake and one side on the gas. It's not the reason I got them, just a happy side effect. (I had actually put on aluminum pedals and offset the brake to be closer to the gas to help heel-toe downshifting, but I was a bit dissapointed until I put the brake lines on. It just made it easier for me and it might be a perfectly valid reason for someone to spend $100 on silly SS brake lines.)

The actual reason I got them:
Quote:
I (used to) rallycross alot and I wanted a little protection for my brake lines. I've had branches and rocks and crap get stuck up in my wheel wells and I didn't want to cut a brake line.
Off road! Which, it appears, I mentioned first.



(Sheesh, nobody listens around here until Subie Gal says it.)

Red-Impreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is the purpose of dual valve stems? kidatari Tire & Wheel 7 05-09-2003 07:12 AM
what is the purpose of gauge pack? gypsymoth Newbies & FAQs 6 08-07-2002 03:38 PM
What is the purpose of improving these parts? sherifx Brakes, Steering & Suspension 13 05-14-2002 12:40 AM
What is the purpose of an oil pressure gauge? redobs Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 9 01-01-2002 12:59 AM
What is the purpose of an angled top mount intercooler? latinskllz Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 3 04-10-2001 10:07 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission
Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.