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06-20-2010, 07:36 PM | #151 | ||
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Ryan has been busy with his brother's wedding, so I'll answer a few of these questions for him (I work with him on some of the MP products):
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06-21-2010, 09:25 AM | #152 |
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06-21-2010, 09:32 AM | #153 | |
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Quote:
Turbo Non Turbo Before you get bold and PM again please study the photos and stop listening to that Brit that is telling you they bolted a WRX manifold to their car and made it fit w/o any modifications to the cat pipe it is a LIE |
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06-22-2010, 12:03 AM | #154 | |
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Quote:
Huh...? |
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06-22-2010, 12:16 AM | #155 |
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http://www.haywardandscott.com/subar...-flow-cat.html
He was German actually..... ..... Nomex suit on.... Last edited by suex; 06-22-2010 at 04:34 AM. Reason: Irrelivent |
06-22-2010, 02:38 AM | #156 |
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http://www.techworkseng.com/Products...ce_Exhaust.htm
Sexy... Wrong type, stupid expensive... But sexy... |
06-22-2010, 10:52 AM | #157 | |
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Quote:
They are also the best header money can buy for an RS/I. |
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06-22-2010, 12:36 PM | #158 |
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Interesting..... To bad they don't update that kind of stuff, Sam at excelleration said the exact same thing, they have an install on there web site with a set of those going being installed....hmm I wonder how much cheaper they are now....
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06-23-2010, 12:50 AM | #159 |
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Either way I think it's a good thing to have another good set on the market, choise is good... |
06-23-2010, 01:26 AM | #160 |
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06-23-2010, 02:12 AM | #161 |
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All i know is, I want a header that doesn't move the cat.
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06-23-2010, 08:57 AM | #162 |
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That link you posted was not the one you sent in that PM if it was we would not of had to play pictures also the has the RS connection on the end
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06-23-2010, 04:57 PM | #163 |
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Yeah the TWE is the wrong one, it's to bad they don't do one for the 06-07... Not that they would sell more than 10 a year with those prices, but it would be cool...
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06-23-2010, 05:05 PM | #164 | |
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Quote:
More than worth the money. TWE's headers leave your cat alone. |
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06-23-2010, 05:09 PM | #165 |
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Oh I'm not put in them down, the wrong type for this thread is all, yeah they kick ass..no doubt there....
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06-23-2010, 05:11 PM | #166 |
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Yeah, that's why I'm really hoping Moore will come out with something mid-priced (say $450-$500) that's well made, reliable, fits, and makes at least as much power as the OBX setup. That'd be a great niche to fill: people who want better quality than chinese crap but just can't spend out for the TWE unit.
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06-23-2010, 05:18 PM | #167 |
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Hard to say, people buy the e-bay headers cuz there cheap, poor fit up or not, they do the same as the borlas, even the borla header has half ass welds, well mine does anyway.
So It might just be up to quality,which Moore, no doubt, will out do borla hands down. I wonder if there's a TWE rip off.. |
06-23-2010, 06:05 PM | #168 |
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No. TWE is probably a little more complex in shape then what the knock off manufacturers want to deal with. There's more challenge in getting it to fit up right and clear engine parts. In the past, people generally considered the TWE and Cobb headers were pretty equivalent for power gains. Both are effectively the same design: similar runner diameter, runner length, and collector size. They may look a bit different, but they follow the ideal settings for a header for the 2.5L when focusing on the stock power band and rev range. You're pretty much looking at 1.5" to 1.625" primary piping, 1.5" being on the small size for low-mid range gearing, 1.625" better for broad band use. The 1.75" size that TWE does offer is better suited for engines with raised redlines, running sport cams, and have some P&P work. Runner length is appropriate for midrange gearing. You're looking at something between 30" and 40" with the length generally being towards the longer for good low-midrange power. The Cobb and TWE designs are both in the 1.625" runner diameter and of about 40". The 2.25" collector sizing is appropriate for the exhaust that would be attached to it.
In the end, the best option will be the most appropriately sized and best flowing option. Runner diameter, runner length, collector diameter, and collector length need to be picked appropriately for the application. The design should use large radius curves, mandrel bends, and collect into the collector at a shallow angle to retain good flow. As for the cheap argument, a LOT of people will greatly prefer the cheap route as long as there are not sizable differences between the cheap option and the expensive option. To have someone pay for a better product, it must be significantly better, proven and understandably better. One can say that the OBX and TWE designs give the same power gains despite the vast difference in build quality. One can equally say that there is a sizable difference in power gains between the cheaply built OBX and well built TWE options. Conceptually, they're about the same. The difference would need to be proven. There has to be a sense of worth associated with the better product, a sense of need. Why should I buy the TWE over the OBX? Build quality alone isn't enough for a lot of people. If you said the OBX made 5ft-lbs over stock and the TWE 10ft-lbs over stock, there is worth to the item. You get double the gains from the design and build quality. There is value to that. However, such things need to be clearly proven. You buy the OBX, the TWE, the Borla, the Moore prototype, and dyno each one. You do road testing to gauge throttle response and drivability. You measure fitment and quality of materials. You gather all the comparative data and weigh each product against the other. What's best? Why? Are the gains of one versus the other worth the cost difference? Moore has a task of trying to develop a product where people will say yes, the Moore header is the best option out there, makes the most power, is the best bang for the buck, or whatever. Last edited by Back Road Runner; 06-23-2010 at 06:15 PM. |
06-23-2010, 07:23 PM | #169 | |
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Quote:
The TWE are vastly superior in both performance and build quality. |
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06-23-2010, 11:42 PM | #170 | |
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06-24-2010, 01:14 AM | #171 |
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Williaty, I am curious why you feel the TWE has those kinds of gains over the OBX. For one, I've never seen a dyno graph of the TWE versus anything, ever. Heck, I don't think I've ever seen a dyno graph of a TWE equipped Impreza at all. The closest thing I've ever seen is your Borla vs. OBX test and some of Matt's older dyno results for the MRT header and such. I've looked but never managed to find one. Now yes, I've seen "claim" of it making more power where there have been words and "proof" of it, but I have never seen an actual dyno graph showing it. I am also curious because I don't even make over 10 ft-lbs. with my TWE header over stock let alone over what should be decent gains from an OBX one which is known to be decent in gains over the Borla which also has gains over stock. You get the idea. I don't know. I think my average gains were 9ft-lbs. over a lot of the power band versus the stock exhaust. Mind you my header is not TWE's normal header by a rally prototype that Section 8 owned way back. It's quite a different design, although the car does end up with a very flat torque band over much of the rev range with pretty linear gains over much of the area versus stock, so I don't think it's really down anywhere. I'm not denying that TWE may make more power. Frankly the build quality is higher. I've just never seen any numbers on the subject.
As for Moore, yeah, I would hope to think that this is basically the conundrum. For anyone making an aftermarket part or any product that needs to compete well in a market, you need to find that sweet spot. I think you guys just need to spend some time prototyping. Spend the upfront resources and build a half dozen different designs. Do 1.5" primaries with a 40" length paired to a 2" exhaust. Measure power, economy, and crutch cost numbers. Do a 1.625" primary in 40" and 30" collected into a 2.25" exhaust and see how the power band changes. See if fuel economy changes. Crunch cost numbers. Step up to a 1.75" primary and run a 30" and 40" length. Dump into a 2.5" exhaust and see what changes. You may do this in large steps or simply adjust one factor at a time and get data. Build a small collection of headers and gather the info you need. Purchase the Borla, the Cobb copy OBX, and one or both of the TWE headers and dyno all of them. To regain some cost, raffle off the headers to the public at a decent price, say $400-$500 and indicate what each header is better suited for. You can sell off the Borla, OBX, and TWE headers near the cost to you. Certain gearing will favor certain people, so someone will be happy with each design. Frankly, anything well built will have gains over stock, and most people will be happy to purchase any one of them at a decent price. Then take the best prototype package and start selling that as your main product. You may even think about selling 2 or 3 types like a high mileage version, the optimum unmodified version, and a high rpm version for a built engine. You could certainly do these made to order, so you never have any inventory costs and invested money. Someone orders, and you start building it. That way there's no burden to you. The buyer won't see the header at their door 3 days later, but most people would be very content waiting a couple weeks to have a good product built for them. I will also note you may want to look into some engine modeling software as a guide. There's a program called Engine Analyzer Pro that has a free, fully working demo that lasts I think 10 days or so. You can use that as a guide to kind of show what difference it makes to change runner diameter, runner length, collector diameter, and collector length. It may help with trying out some initial design choices. I also suggest that you look into the concept of "anti-reversion" and see what is needed to help prevent the feeding of exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber and intake and contaminate the next cycle. Proper sizing and design choices will minimize this effect. I also want to note that a specific exhaust design may make more power on the stock ECU tune than another header, however the other header may actually make more power with a revised ECU tune that may take advantage of more timing with the other design. Little details play big roles. In the end you may or may not create a product for sale. At the very least, it will be a learning experience for your company. You will very much get good at building exhausts and know what works well on these engines. This could very well translate into custom work for customers down the road and into the public market if you do actually find this endevour economically feasible. |
06-24-2010, 01:27 AM | #172 | ||
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Honestly, I wasn't expecting the TWE header to be any different the OBX header, given that they were both EL designs. The only thing I was looking for from the TWE was better build quality than the crap from OBX. I was honestly pretty shocked when I got in the car to go to the grocery after the swap and I could feel the difference just pulling out of my driveway. There's an immense difference in the *feel* of the way the headers make power and the TWE headers have an extension towards the top end that the OBX just can't match. I logged it and was very surprised at how much more the engine was breathing. |
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06-24-2010, 01:50 AM | #173 |
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so where's the best place to score TWE headers from now that we've established this?
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06-24-2010, 01:51 AM | #174 |
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Well I would imagine that you'd do so from TWE.
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06-24-2010, 02:00 AM | #175 |
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You've done a bit of stuff beyond just headers though. I'm not sure what cams you're running now or P&P work with the heads. My prototype is a 1.75" primary as well and 4-1 but 60" long, lol, and with cross pipes at 30" to what TWE told Section 8 to aid top end. My car is limited by the stock cams quite noticeably. I was quite glad the low end is so good though given 1.75" is actually a bad size for a stock geared setup. Frankly, I don't expect to see the real benefits from the headers until I do cams and P&P work.
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