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Old 05-14-2012, 10:43 PM   #901
subiTWO
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Ok, here is the quick and dirty analysis:
Thanks, nubsub, fascinating.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:44 PM   #902
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I think where we would have a case is if the car does indeed have a 10,000 mile break in period to acheive the EPA estimates. If that is true than Subaru didn't disclose that in any adversiting, manuals or other documentation. My dealer is now telling prospective buyers that the car has a long break in period.
It took my 2000 Outback 10k to get to repeatable high mpg... Took over 5k for the craptastic audi to loosen up during decel.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:52 PM   #903
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These were all from one person (subiTWO who shared them): i am assuming he kept track of temps at fill-up time or perhaps went back and looked at the weather and corresponding dates of fill up? (they can speak up, of course). it's good that it's from one person, though. if it was from multiple people, there would likely be even more scatter and lack of correlation.

i'm sure temperature has an effect, and warmer weather should help with saving gas at warm up of the car as well as potentially different blends of gas. but i'm guessing most of the scatter is from other complicated variables like traffic patterns, driving style/mood, city/highway changes, etc. it's hard to do a fully controlled experiment to isolate the air temperature effects, IMHO.

even if someone were only doing the same commute route very day, traffic and light patterns would add significant variability on top of the temperature related variability.
I'm used to playing the 'drive 40 miles exactly the same as yesterday' game, and mentally keep track of weather and 'mood' variables. For this exercise, I checked weather underground.com local weather sites for temp data for the week preceeding each fill. I have very light traffic in the morning, and at night, I drive the speed *I* want to drive (usually 2.5 mph over the posted limit).

Some weeks I treat myself to more accel, and am disappointed in the lower mpg. Then I remind myself of the modded Talon running 16.5 psi, and getting 18 (eighteen!!!) mpg! Hell, my SV650 will drop to 30 mpg if I really get on it, hard! It's typically only 45 mpg.

The biggest killer to mpg in this car is wind. I drive thru farm country, and a tailwind can easily give me 3-5 mpg more on the tripmeter.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:56 PM   #904
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I think where we would have a case is if the car does indeed have a 10,000 mile break in period to acheive the EPA estimates. If that is true than Subaru didn't disclose that in any adversiting, manuals or other documentation. My dealer is now telling prospective buyers that the car has a long break in period.
You are pissing into the wind with this. Subaru didnt disclose it and you didnt ask. But any mechanic will tell you that there is a break in period for engines. With modern machining capabilities an engine that would be broken in at 30k is not broken in at 10k . Its not a bad trade.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:19 AM   #905
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Just got my Walmart mobile 1 fuel economy blend 0w20 for $26.48 for a 5 qt jug. The single qts were 6.47. This is in the SF bay area, CA. May be more or less at other locals.

I'm going to try 5 qts for my first change in a few weeks and see where that hits on the dipstick.
I got a coupon from my dealer (Mastria) for $29.95 for my first oil change and thought, "that's nice". After reading here I'm going to read the fine print... hope it's not too good to be true.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:26 AM   #906
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Usually steelies are pretty light. the smaller size of 15 (vs 16 or 17s that are also of course 'stock') also puts the mass towards the center of the rim/wheel, which makes them easier for the car to actually put into motion. My guess would be the EPA estimates are done with the 15" steel wheels as well, and that the larger stock rim/tire combinations are chosen to get as close as possible to those numbers, though I would guess the larger sizes do have a minimal detrimental effect on real world mpg.
The car will coast forever, and driving at a steady rate the weight of the wheels would not enter into it - just on accel/decel, so I'd be surprised if the wheel weight made much of a difference to mpg. What I have noticed is my odometer milage at fill-up is always less by 10-15 miles than what my GPS reports when I use the "at the pump" feature to capture fuel economy. I have 17" wheels, I wonder if the odometer needs to be calibrated as I have read elsewhere. Is that even possible?
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:06 AM   #907
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has anyone really tried to top off their gas tank? i haven't done anything like that in this car and i know in general, it's considered by many to be a bad thing to do. yet, i'm guessing, if it's like most cars, it probably can fit an extra 1/2-1gal over the 14.5gal capacity or what you can put in "post click."

i think nothing to round up to the nearest dollar when i fill up the Impreza. of course at over $4 a gallon, that doesn't amount to much these days...

(but even back at $2 a gallon, i never had any spillage rounding up to the nearest buck on my old Honda, after the pump "clicked.")
i always stop it at the first click as stated from the manual... sometimes im 3 bars short of a full tank...dealer will look at this as well when i take it to the dealer thurs for clips popping from the dash and touchy brakes. i do that in my other cars if im going on long trips though
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:40 AM   #908
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Mention these... email this to your service dept if you have to.

Service Bulletin # 11-113-12: TCM Reprogramming Files for Improved Drivability

Bulletin Description: This is to announce that TCM reprogramming files are now available to address a concern where, on light acceleration from a stop, the customer feels a sensation that the vehicle's rate of acceleration is trailing off, requiring more throttle input to maintain a constant level of acceleration. Note: TCM reprogramming files were sent to all SDS users in the January 2012 SSMIII Update Version 1.31.45.7.

Service Bulletin # 11-115-12: ECM Reprogramming Files to Improve Drivability

Bulletin Description: This is to announce that ECM reprogramming files are now available to optimize engine drivability while cruising and during engine braking. Note: ECM reprogramming files were sent to all SDS users in the January 2012 SSMIII Update Version 1.31.45.7.
OK, so I brought my car in for the updates. Turns out they were installed at the port, like so many others who have posted here. The service manager said he reset everything and said to give it a few tank fill ups and about a month of driving so the system can re-learn how I drive.

I am not sure if this is a bunch of BS, but he did say when he drove the car he noticed the RPM drop off at 40MPH and did notice the RPM increase and engine drag when going downhill. He said to give it a month and see if there is any improvement. Unfortunately I did not have a chance to get on the accelerator for the 40MPH issue and there were no significant downhill events on my way into the office from the dealer.

Is there any way for me to actually tell if the service dept really did reset everything, or am I just taking his word for it?

One other question, does the terrain (gain/loss in altitude) during my commute really have that big of a negative effect on my MPG? I still see my Avg MPG when driving in "CITY" type conditions in the low teens, and I am not getting on this car at all, in fact I feel like I am babying this thing too much. Is this really how I have to drive to see decent MPG averages?
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:42 AM   #909
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Originally Posted by chicagocpo View Post
I got a coupon from my dealer (Mastria) for $29.95 for my first oil change and thought, "that's nice". After reading here I'm going to read the fine print... hope it's not too good to be true.
My first oil change was $53.90....I am thinking that is going to be the norm in MA and NH.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:53 AM   #910
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One other question, does the terrain (gain/loss in altitude) during my commute really have that big of a negative effect on my MPG? I still see my Avg MPG when driving in "CITY" type conditions in the low teens, and I am not getting on this car at all, in fact I feel like I am babying this thing too much. Is this really how I have to drive to see decent MPG averages?
The car stinks on hills in my experience. To get good MPG you need to avoid hills, cold weather, traffic, and short trips under 15 miles.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:17 AM   #911
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The car stinks on hills in my experience. To get good MPG you need to avoid hills, cold weather, traffic, and short trips under 15 miles.
every car stinks on hills traffic and short trips unless its a hybrid.

When approaching a hill allow the car to slow down then when going down a hill acclerate. Keeping a constant speed is nice but to get the best mpg you have to be aware of the terrain
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:38 AM   #912
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Originally Posted by thedataman

My first oil change was $53.90....I am thinking that is going to be the norm in MA and NH.
That's a reasonable price if you account for the fact that it includes 5+ qts synthetic oil.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:04 AM   #913
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For hills, I've had good results climbing with moderate to heavy throttle around 1800-2200 RPM and maintaining about 1500 RPM in gear with zero throttle on descents. If you do it right, you won't use any fuel on the way down.

If your city driving consists of crawling through traffic jams, nothing but a hybrid will give you decent numbers. In those conditions, the A/C penalty is huge. All cars get zero MPG when idling and this car idles more efficiently than most. Few engines will use less fuel than a 2.0 spinning at 650 RPM.

As for topping off, don't do it. You'd think if pretty much every gas station posts signs telling you to use less of their product, they'd have a good reason for it.

Last edited by Commander Keen; 05-15-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:21 AM   #914
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I never click after the pump auto shuts off the first time. In the manual it also says not to do that. It's kind of an obsessive compulsive thing to do, lol. Since I am keeping track at each fill-up I want to be consistent also.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:53 AM   #915
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from what i saw on fuelly(25-29avg), majority of people are not getting the highway miles and getting even worse city miles.
Fuelly is showing a combined fuel average on their site.

The Combined fuel average is not the same as either the City or Highway mileage, it is a number halfway between printed on the EPA section of your window sticker that represents the expected average fuel economy for mixed driving conditions.

Not the best data, but all we have got is Fuelly: the average 2012 Subaru Impreza on Fuelly is achieving 27-30mpg Combined fuel use.

Now explain how you can win a Class Action lawsuit when the average driver is achieving the EPA approved Combined Fuel Economy printed on the sticker approved by the EPA?

You also would need to be achieving probably way lower than 20mpg city to have a case, because the expected range on my label shows: CITY MPG 25, but just underneath that big number is the small print, Expected Range for most drivers 20 to 30 mpg.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:02 PM   #916
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I have a 2012 impreza sport premium, and my avg mpg read 27.9 this morning when I walked in to work. Half highway, half city. I have less than 1k miles on it though.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:04 PM   #917
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Originally Posted by Haunty View Post
I never click after the pump auto shuts off the first time. In the manual it also says not to do that. It's kind of an obsessive compulsive thing to do, lol. Since I am keeping track at each fill-up I want to be consistent also.
I usually round up to the nearest quarter, not a huge amount of gas these days anyway...we're all a little OCD I guess, haha. I usually have a guesstimate about how much gas will be needed, so if it stops very early (which happens occasionally with any car), I'll start pumping again normally, which usually results in a normal fill.

I don't worry about being exact about the fill up and the auto-stop at the pump isn't necessarily consistent anyway. In the end as long as you track gallons pumped and miles driven you'll get a proper overall average.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:37 PM   #918
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Fuelly is showing a combined fuel average on their site.

The Combined fuel average is not the same as either the City or Highway mileage, it is a number halfway between printed on the EPA section of your window sticker that represents the expected average fuel economy for mixed driving conditions.

Not the best data, but all we have got is Fuelly: the average 2012 Subaru Impreza on Fuelly is achieving 27-30mpg Combined fuel use.

Now explain how you can win a Class Action lawsuit when the average driver is achieving the EPA approved Combined Fuel Economy printed on the sticker approved by the EPA?

You also would need to be achieving probably way lower than 20mpg city to have a case, because the expected range on my label shows: CITY MPG 25, but just underneath that big number is the small print, Expected Range for most drivers 20 to 30 mpg.
i agree. the combined EPA number for this car is 30mpg and that's probably the number to compare fuelly with. 27.6 isn't too far from that, and with break in and perhaps some numbers tilted down because of the TCM/ECU programming things, i am guessing the estimate is a pretty decent one as far as raw numbers goes. (acknowledging that some people are expecting to exceed EPA numbers based on past experience)
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:38 PM   #919
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Originally Posted by pxpaulx View Post
I usually round up to the nearest quarter, not a huge amount of gas these days anyway...we're all a little OCD I guess, haha. I usually have a guesstimate about how much gas will be needed, so if it stops very early (which happens occasionally with any car), I'll start pumping again normally, which usually results in a normal fill.

I don't worry about being exact about the fill up and the auto-stop at the pump isn't necessarily consistent anyway. In the end as long as you track gallons pumped and miles driven you'll get a proper overall average.
yep. in the end, it depends on what you are looking for...tank to tank, there is going to be a fair bit of variability, but the long term numbers work out regardless of pumps used, topping off, etc.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:26 PM   #920
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Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
i agree. the combined EPA number for this car is 30mpg and that's probably the number to compare fuelly with. 27.6 isn't too far from that, and with break in and perhaps some numbers tilted down because of the TCM/ECU programming things, i am guessing the estimate is a pretty decent one as far as raw numbers goes. (acknowledging that some people are expecting to exceed EPA numbers based on past experience)
Yes, the Fuelly miles include:
- break-in miles
- mileage with cars with CVT with older programming
- cold weather miles
- MT and CVT mileage is combined, no way to filter out for the transmission you have (that I can see).

Considering all that, the Fuelly-reported mileage is reasonable. I think the Fuelly numbers will go a bit higher with summer driving and as people get more break-in miles.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:38 PM   #921
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i agree. the combined EPA number for this car is 30mpg and that's probably the number to compare fuelly with. 27.6 isn't too far from that, and with break in and perhaps some numbers tilted down because of the TCM/ECU programming things, i am guessing the estimate is a pretty decent one as far as raw numbers goes. (acknowledging that some people are expecting to exceed EPA numbers based on past experience)
Interestingly I analzyed the 2012 Outback Fuelly MPG a while back and found that the Fuelly AVG mpg was .6 MPG higher than the EPA combined avg for the 2012 Outback.

Granted the 2012 Outback has been out a bit longer than the 2012 Impreza so more of those cars would have longer break in periods but I found it interesting to see the Impreza so far under the EPA combined MPG while the Outback was above.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:53 PM   #922
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Yes, the Fuelly miles include:
- break-in miles
- mileage with cars with CVT with older programming
- cold weather miles
- MT and CVT mileage is combined, no way to filter out for the transmission you have (that I can see).

Considering all that, the Fuelly-reported mileage is reasonable. I think the Fuelly numbers will go a bit higher with summer driving and as people get more break-in miles.
Fuelly miles also include someone who claims to have gotten 95mpg on their tank(and other equally improbable numbers) in their 2012 Impreza.(check out the details of the high score reports)

Also note the high percentage of very high percentage highway miles on the cars that actually get close to the EPA "mixed" mileage.

And its maybe something to consider that if you single out other brands/models and just single out the 2012 reports, those averages should include just as much break-in time.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:57 PM   #923
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Hopelessly incomplete (more when I get home) but I had to report on the first leg f my first highway trip. Very pleased:

77 miles and computer shows 40.2 mpg. Was 41.1 when I left highway and then encountered 3 miles of stop and go. Was as High as 42.6 after 40 miles but rolling hills dropped the average.

I was diligent to keep 60-65mph as my speed.

Not bad!
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:08 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
Fuelly miles also include someone who claims to have gotten 95mpg on their tank(and other equally improbable numbers) in their 2012 Impreza.(check out the details of the high score reports)

Also note the high percentage of very high percentage highway miles on the cars that actually get close to the EPA "mixed" mileage.

And its maybe something to consider that if you single out other brands/models and just single out the 2012 reports, those averages should include just as much break-in time.
There are a lot of anomolies, which is why you use the AVERAGE numbers, and they are close if not spot on to the Combined Fuel Economy printed on the label approved by the EPA for the AVERAGE driver entering their data on Fuelly.
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:14 PM   #925
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just as a side note....Im about to break 13K on my HB Limited CVT PZEV....and I would say yes...it does have an extended breakin period...I saw steady increase in avg MPG after my first oil change, again at around 7K and at 10K.....my commute is 106 miles round trip each day.....car delivered 17 Dec....have not checked on TSB updates.....and my MPGs seemed to have leveled off now after passing through 10K.....Im averaging 31ish.....have seen a high of 33.4 for a full tank.....which I allow to click off at the pump..then fill slowly again till the next click off....all my calculations are manually done.....my low avg since delivery was 26.7 and my high as stated.....

hwy/city on commute....80/20 ish....speeds 45-75 based on hwy and traffic...commute from MD into Northern VA.......through two lane state roads four lane interstate and toll roads over some rolling hills....and about 5-7 miles city driving with stop lights/signs
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