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Old 05-05-2016, 11:38 PM   #1
MeisterR
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Question MeisterR coilovers for Subaru, what do you use your suspension for?

Hello everyone,

My name is Jerrick and I am from MeisterR.
MeisterR is a suspension specialist from the UK, and we just recently expanded to the USA.
Some of you may have heard of us and other may not, but I intend to be part of the community so any questions regarding suspension, I am alway happy to help.

MeisterR have been around for over 8 years now, and have provided suspension to quite a few Subaru owners from WRX to Legacy.





Coming from the UK, I am just trying to get a general feel what the Subaru community want from their coilovers.
We do a few different ranges, but the most popular is our new generation ZetaCRD Coilovers



MeisterR ZetaCRD: Designed for fast road & track use

The springs rate are consertivie, design to remain complaint over uneven road surfaces.
GC / GD: 6kg/mm in front, 5kg/mm rear.
GR / GJ: 6kg/mm in front, 7kg/mm rear.

This is the most common setup for most UK owners, as this is design for road compound tyres and deal with uneven road surfaces comfortably.
Most regard this setup as compliant as OEM, but more responsive.


My questions to the community is what do you mainly use your car for?
MeisterR suspension are design as multi-role suspension that does everything well.
However, most enthusiast seems to engage with SCCA Auto Solo that require a slightly different setup than most track suspension.

We want to know do track enthusiast want dedicated setup that that is even stiffer to handle quick transition such as Auto Solo event, but give up compliancy for road use in return.

Let us know what you think, we are just taking in opinion at the moment.
Looking forward to hear from everyone.

Jerrick
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:59 AM   #2
A-man07
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Always glad to see a new player in suspension, particularly one still supporting the GC/GD platform. In my opinion, the main thing we need is a long stroke coilover that can survive normal street driving, especially for us 05-07 STi owners that don't have much in the way of strut options.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:10 AM   #3
lukethedork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Always glad to see a new player in suspension, particularly one still supporting the GC/GD platform. In my opinion, the main thing we need is a long stroke coilover that can survive normal street driving, especially for us 05-07 STi owners that don't have much in the way of strut options.
It's already available. It's called a 40mm Bilstein in a fabricated strut housing. Can be made and valved for under USD2000 anywhere and some places as low as USD1600.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:25 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukethedork View Post
It's already available. It's called a 40mm Bilstein in a fabricated strut housing. Can be made and valved for under USD2000 anywhere and some places as low as USD1600.
Which places would those be?
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:26 AM   #5
Bikelok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Always glad to see a new player in suspension, particularly one still supporting the GC/GD platform. In my opinion, the main thing we need is a long stroke coilover that can survive normal street driving, especially for us 05-07 STi owners that don't have much in the way of strut options.

Yes this^^^^

There are loads of options that lower but few that either keep OEM height or even raise the car. As A-man said, another longer stroke/travel option would be great.

But we all know it's easier to sell suspensions that drop.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:37 AM   #6
MeisterR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Always glad to see a new player in suspension, particularly one still supporting the GC/GD platform. In my opinion, the main thing we need is a long stroke coilover that can survive normal street driving, especially for us 05-07 STi owners that don't have much in the way of strut options.
We never had any complain from customers in the UK about ride comfort, and our roads are pretty bad.
A quick look at the GC / GD suspension, the front and rear have about 5" of total damper stroke travel.

One thing to remember is that the coilovers are dual perch design.
So assuming you need more compression stroke travel, you can adjust that via the spring platform independent from the ride height setting.

But as I have said, before, we never had any complain with lack of travel in our suspension with the Subaru in the past 8 years.

Just to say we are also doing an initial launch offer at $995 delivered.
I will put up another thread in the vendors later, this is more to engage the community to see what you are after.

Jerrick
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikelok View Post
Yes this^^^^

There are loads of options that lower but few that either keep OEM height or even raise the car. As A-man said, another longer stroke/travel option would be great.

But we all know it's easier to sell suspensions that drop.
Because of the GC / GD suspension design (McPherson Strut front and rear), the ride height range is very large.
One of my colleague have a WRX and he set the suspension 15mm (about 1/2 inch) lower than standard without any problem.

I am sure there are more room to go up if you really want to.
But a slight drop does provide some handling benefit.

Jerrick
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:25 AM   #8
AndyRoo
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What does close ratio damping mean?
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
What does close ratio damping mean?
MeisterR CRD valving keeps the compression and rebound ratio much closer to each other than a lot of the other suspension on the market.
It ensure compression force adjustments throughout the adjustment range, and the rebound force are kept in check so it doesn't cause jacking down.



This result in a suspension that is comfortable to use on the road on softer damping setting, but responsive on the track with stiffer damper setting.

Jerrick
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Old 05-06-2016, 12:37 PM   #10
A-man07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterR View Post
We never had any complain from customers in the UK about ride comfort, and our roads are pretty bad.
A quick look at the GC / GD suspension, the front and rear have about 5" of total damper stroke travel.

One thing to remember is that the coilovers are dual perch design.
So assuming you need more compression stroke travel, you can adjust that via the spring platform independent from the ride height setting.

But as I have said, before, we never had any complain with lack of travel in our suspension with the Subaru in the past 8 years.

Jerrick
Actually I'm not talking comfort really, I use 7K/5K springs now, just a stroke long enough to not bottom or top out on regular roads. It doesn't take too many full travel crashes to require a rebuild. But if your delivered price is less than $1K USD I don't think we're going to be on the same page. Best.
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Old 05-06-2016, 01:17 PM   #11
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From your plot it certainly doesn't look like "rebound forces are kept in check."

What is different between these and everything else out there like BC racing, megan, k-sport etc?
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Old 05-06-2016, 01:46 PM   #12
MeisterR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Actually I'm not talking comfort really, I use 7K/5K springs now, just a stroke long enough to not bottom or top out on regular roads. It doesn't take too many full travel crashes to require a rebuild. But if your delivered price is less than $1K USD I don't think we're going to be on the same page. Best.
ZetaCRD is MeisterR entry level performance suspension.
We do offer a high performance GT1 coilovers.




The GT1 are build using precision made CNC internals engineered and manufactured in house at our UK R&D workshop.
They are back by our technical partner Black Art Design (BAD) who have a track record of providing suspension solution from OEM, government, military, to championship winning race cars application.

The GT1 carries a lifetime warranty on hydraulic function.
If the damper isn't physically damaged (bend or scored rod), we will rebuild the damper free of charge 5 years later if it ever leaks.
Even if you track the car every weekend.

That's because our precision in house made CNC shaft seal are design to hold pressure up to 400bars and so not wear from use.
We don't intend to rebuild the GT1 often because it was designed not to fail, even under hard usage.

The GT1 will be priced around the $2000 mark.
That might be more along the line of what you are after.

Jerrick
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Old 05-06-2016, 01:51 PM   #13
MeisterR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
From your plot it certainly doesn't look like "rebound forces are kept in check."
From a vehicle dynamic stand point, that graph certainly looks like there are enough rebound force (more importantly, not too much rebound force in relation to the compression force) for a fast road & track dampers.

Can you tell me why you think the rebound force are out of specs?

Jerrick

Last edited by MeisterR; 05-06-2016 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:15 PM   #14
MeisterR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
What is different between these and everything else out there like BC racing, megan, k-sport etc?
Right, I can't say what MeisterR is different from the product listed, because I can only do that if I have complete information on the other product, which I do not.
I can say what are unique about MeisterR, and those are features that other products will not have.

So lets go through some of the unique feature of the MeisterR ZetaCRD coilovers for the a few WRX coilovers:

1. Close Ratio Damping (C.R.D.)
The heart of the ZetaCRD is our close ratio damping



The closer compression and rebound peak force ratio and the "shield" shape graph mean your car will push the tyres harder into the ground to generate better traction and steering response on stiffer damping setting, but still have a compliant road car that will deal with uneven road surfaces well on softer damping setting.

The CRD valving were designed in house at our UK R&D workshop along with our technical partner Black Art Design.
We have combined over two decade of experiences from providing suspension to OEM, Government, and Military application as well as a track record success of providing suspension to championship winning race cars.

The CRD is what makes the MeisterR coilovers ride nicer, grip harder, and perform better than the next suspension.

2. Vehicle dynamically calculated springs rate
All of MeisterR coilovers have their springs rate calculated by a vehicle dynamic engineer in our UK workshop.
We didn't just pick some numbers out of thin air and hope it works, they were calculated to know it works.
While it might be similar or the same as other company (As it is the same car we are all working on), we have confidence that it will work because we worked the math to before hand.

3. Thicker diameter damper shaft
The ZetaCRD employ a thicker damper shaft, and is larger by the industry standard (and our previous generation) by about 10%.
This increase in diameter provide a stronger unit that are more stable dynamically.

4. Rubber insulated spring coil
The ZetaCRD all have an insulator on the first coil of the springs.
This help improve service life of the springs as well as reduce any possible of noise coil noise.

5. Unique UK Patent Pending Radial Adjustable Non-Slip Collars.
Our unique locking collar are engineered in house using CAD program.
This collar allow large amount of force to go through without slipping allowing user to lock and unlock collar easier in the future.
This system require much higher precision than most collar system, therefore each C-spanner must be individually laser cut in order to meet it's tolerance.


The MeisterR ZetaCRD coilovers isn't like other coilovers because a lot of engineering have gone on in from our UK R&D workshop to make sure it is the best we can put out within this market segment.

It may look similar, it can even look the same; after all, they are all designed to fit the same chassis.
But while the outside may look the same, the inside and the performance will be different; because we engineered them to be different.

I hope that help shed some light on what is different between the MeisterR Coilovers and other brands.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to let me know.

Jerrick
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:29 AM   #15
jamal
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It looks like there is way too much high speed rebound.

It also looks like this is just a rebranded cheap and mass produced suspension, and it looks like you just pasted in a lot of words without actually saying anything.

Like, if I'm in the market for $1000 coilovers, why would I buy these over BC or Megan? Or KW's ST brand?
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:06 AM   #16
MeisterR
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So lets break this down to address your questions.
One thing I will mention first is that the ZetaCRD are designed as a fast road & track damper, so the valving will focus more on compliancy over uneven road surfaces than all out track use.

After all, no one want a horrible ride 95% of the time, for marginal gain on that 5% of the time they are on track.
If someone are looking for a pure track setup, we do have other suspension more suited for those purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
It looks like there is way too much high speed rebound.
I included the both the Force vs Displacement and the Force vs Velocity graph on this.
This way you can see HOW the force are generated, and HOW MUCH force are generated.

This damper will handle an 8kg/mm springs, which is what we roughly pair this damper valving with.
We do have a lot of different damper valving design to pair with different springs rate.

The "shield shape" graph shows that this valving will work well as a fast road / tarmac rally damper.
The compression and rebound ratio are also kept around a 1:3 ratio which is great for a fast road car.

Therefore, when you say there is a bit too much high speed valving, I am a bit confused.
If the damping ratio was 1:5, then i would agree with you that there is too much rebound.
You would also need to know what springs rate this valving would be paired with first before you can make judgement on the valving.

If this was paired with a 4kg/mm springs, then it would be over damped.
But if this was paired with a 16kg/mm springs, then it would be under damped.
Most vehicle dynamic engineer would be able to look at this graph and know what springs would pair up well with this valving.

If you can let me know a little bit more about your concerns, I am more than happy to answer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
It also looks like this is just a rebranded cheap and mass produced suspension, and it looks like you just pasted in a lot of words without actually saying anything.
Here is the shorter version.
The MeisterR dampers are build differently, valved differently, and include parts that we developed in house that currently hold a UK patent pending status.

So it isn't a rebranded anything, because we engineered all of our own specs in our UK R&D workshop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Like, if I'm in the market for $1000 coilovers, why would I buy these over BC or Megan? Or KW's ST brand?
As above, because MeisterR suspension are design to provide better performance than the other brand at similar price bracket.
The MeisterR coilovers will provide better steering response as well as traction during track days on stiff damping setting, but retain great road compliancy and comfort on softer damping setting.

I know that because I have seen dyno and most of the listed damper provide very little (if any) compression force changes over it's adjustment range.
This change in compression force is necessary to provide a good damper that will perform well on track and ride nice on the road.
It doesn't mean the suspension will not work on track, but it mean it won't provide the same steering sharpness or traction that the MeisterR coilovers will provide on track.

Jerrick
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Old 05-07-2016, 02:22 PM   #17
Bikelok
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You will find some very knowledgeable people on this site. It's appreciated when a company is willing to try and answer questions/concerns.

Here are a couple of more for you.
I know Great Britain is not immune to rust and corrosion. How are the components protected from seizing and other issues associated?
I know many coil overs below the $1500 mark, usually don't hold up well in "the salt belt" states.

Do you offer a long travel option? Something that is dirt/gravel worthy?
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Old 05-07-2016, 04:05 PM   #18
MeisterR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikelok View Post
You will find some very knowledgeable people on this site. It's appreciated when a company is willing to try and answer questions/concerns.

Here are a couple of more for you.
I know Great Britain is not immune to rust and corrosion. How are the components protected from seizing and other issues associated?
I know many coil overs below the $1500 mark, usually don't hold up well in "the salt belt" states.
I am always happy to answer questions honestly.
Sometime people views differ (even among vehicle dynamic engineers), so I am always happy to bring up our views in addressing customers concerns.

UK do get our fair share of winter and salt, some place are worst than other.
Overall, our corrosion protection on our suspension has been good.
Most alloy parts is aluminium which is fine.
The steel components are all coated.
Our damper case are coated with a black chromium that under gone ASTM B117 salt spray testing procedure for 120 hours with no rust.

For extra protection, I recommend customer spray a layer of white lithium grease as additional barrier, and also coat any metal to metal contact are such as the inside of the lower bracket.
Other than that, the coilovers suit it's purposes and we don't really get much complains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikelok View Post
Do you offer a long travel option? Something that is dirt/gravel worthy?
Our ZetaCRD and GT1 are both aimed at fast road & track use.
We can and have done longer travel rally unit, but those are normally inverted 3-way suspension designed for race use.
It isn't something we offer on the shelf, but it is something we can custom build if there are a need.

We had test our standard upright unit (20mm rod) with a BMW Mini in rally cross just to see how far we can push the envelope, and that went through fine.
The current range of ZetaCRD use a 22mm rod, so it is even stronger than the unit we used in the RallyCross a few years back.

But for proper off road / gravel / dirt stage, I would prefer to stick with an inverted damper design in those cases.

Jerrick
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:51 AM   #19
MeisterR
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Just thought we say we had a good day today at the Houston SCCA testing a set of MeisterR ZetaCRD+ coilovers on a STU class car driven by Zachary Sober.



Class win but there are still improvement to be made as this car just step up from the BS class to the STU class, so it is very low in the power department... and that needs to be addressed.

Jerrick
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Old 06-23-2016, 08:02 PM   #20
MeisterR
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Just a bump on this to get a bit more feedback from the community.

We also posted up an initial offer deal in the vendor classified if anyone are interested.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=44488384

We are testing with the SCCA STi using the off the shelf springs rate too see how far we can push it.
We may eventually go down the GT1 route with higher springs rate and custom valved race specific dampers, but that will be further down the road.

We want to see how far we can get with a sub $1000 set of performance coilovers.

Jerrick
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:59 AM   #21
MeisterR
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Anymore feedback from others?

At the moment we are testing the limit on our road setup.
We could go up on the springs rate, but we want to make sure the car retain good ride comfort for a daily.

We will at the next round of Houston SCCA auto solo to have a proper look over the STi and see how it does.
So far the driver say it has been great with improvement in damping response without getting a harsh ride; but had been difficult to quality the difference as there are only so much you can test on the road.

Jerrick
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