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Old 05-10-2006, 02:53 PM   #1
powerlabs
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Default VF22 and lag: Photographic evidence of the myth.

I think one of the biggest questions on this forum is "What turbo should I run". I've asked myself that question countless times and ended up running a VF22, mainly because:
1- It was very cheap (less than $400 shipped to my doorstep)
and
2- It is the largest turbo my injectors will support. I would definitely need bigger injectors to run a bigger turbo. A bigger turbo would also cost a lot more. If I get bigger injectors, I would need a standalone ECU (my V5 JDM ECU is not reflashable) to control them. If I got a standalone I would need to tune it on a dyno... Plus anything bigger than a VF22 and I would also probably want a FMIC to make the most of it... FMIC + Turbo + Injectors + ECU + Dyno Tune = close to 3 grand. No thanks
I chose the VF22 looking for power, but most of what I read on this forum pointed to it being a very laggy turbo, which I really didn't want since I autocross all the time.
So, how laggy is it?
Here it is:



1 atmosphere of boost (read at the center of the intake manifold) at just shy of 3200RPMs. This on 5th gear, level road (slight decline actually).
On a untuned JDM V5 Type RA ECU.
The setup:

JDM V8 shortblock, JDM V5 Type RA heads, mated with stock STI head gaskets and ARP head studs.
Ported and polished intake manifold, up pipe, turbocharger turbine inlet, turbocharger compressor inlet and outlet, intercooler Y pipe elbows, throttle body, intake manifold.
Wrapped headers, up pipe, down pipe. Ceramic coated turbo hot side
Perrin turbo inlet, USDM STI intercooler.

Here is a dyno of the car ***UNTUNED***:



After a ECUTEK reflash the car gained 30AWHP / 30AWTQ and peak torque now happens 580rpms sooner in the power band. Tuning really is everything on these cars... Still, 288AWHP on a stock ecu map isn't too shabby either

I figured this might be of some use to some of you.

Now, my question... At what RPMs do you guys see 1ATM / BAR of boost and what turbos are you running?
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Last edited by powerlabs; 11-27-2006 at 03:26 PM. Reason: More info.
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Old 05-10-2006, 03:09 PM   #2
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I'm pretty sure I had that much boost at about the same revs, if not a bit sooner when I was running a VF22 on my stock internals EJ205.
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Old 05-10-2006, 05:32 PM   #3
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This really doesn't mean anything. You have better flowing heads than most and everything coated/ported.

For reference, I get full boost (18psi) with a VF34, borla header (coated from borla) at or below that rpm.
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Old 05-10-2006, 05:50 PM   #4
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5th gear is a good way to disprove this myth?

Try a 3rd gear run.

Isn't that the one with the turbine erosion?
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Old 05-10-2006, 05:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richde
5th gear is a good way to disprove this myth?

Try a 3rd gear run.

Isn't that the one with the turbine erosion?
Nope, its a new one.
I will try a 3rd gear run and report back :P
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:18 PM   #6
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I have full boost at 2250rpms but that's with a TD04
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:20 PM   #7
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nailing the gas in 3rd gear at 2600 RPM on my VF34 I make 16.8 PSI by 3600 RPM.

5th gear spools it very close to 3,000.
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFL2.5RS
I have full boost at 2250rpms but that's with a TD04

TDO4? One of these?:




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Old 05-10-2006, 06:24 PM   #9
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haha... BLAST!! you found out about my custom tinier than stock turbo swap!!!! 8psi at idle :P
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:24 PM   #10
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ha ha....
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:26 PM   #11
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Full boost @900RPMs
Compressor overspins and flies apart @4000
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:32 PM   #12
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or your compressor wheel can just fly apart because your turbo has FOD and you refuse to admit it.... I believe that's one point for me :P
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Old 05-10-2006, 07:56 PM   #13
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I'm sure most people would have believed you without taking a picture at 70mph on a residential street .
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireball_jones
I'm sure most people would have believed you without taking a picture at 70mph on a residential street .
Erm... Caugh... That's not a residential street

Nah, seriously, the speed limit on that road is 55; I live there, so it can't be that residential
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:43 PM   #15
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i always noted spoolup in 4th gear... went full throttle at 2250-2500 and then noted when boost shot up to max. seems that everyone does it differently, and it certainly varies by gear.
i wouldnt call the vf22 a laggy turbo, i'd call it a medium turbo... but its all relative... some hop into a wrx and think the stock turbo has horrible lag and they cant drive it and want their V8 back... some are happy all day long with a GT35R.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrinkleboi
i always noted spoolup in 4th gear... went full throttle at 2250-2500 and then noted when boost shot up to max. seems that everyone does it differently, and it certainly varies by gear..
Which is exactly why I took a video of my boost gauge and tach and froze the exact frame where it hit 1ATM... Its just too easy to throw in some wishful thinking when you're eyeballing the gauge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrinkleboi
i wouldnt call the vf22 a laggy turbo, i'd call it a medium turbo... but its all relative... some hop into a wrx and think the stock turbo has horrible lag and they cant drive it and want their V8 back... some are happy all day long with a GT35R.
I definitely wish I had less lag. The VF22 definitely lags. But it doesn't lag any more than my old VF29 did, and that is both a smaller turbo and one with a titanium turbine (less rotational mass, should spool up even faster). That was the whole point of this post.
Now, if I could get a turbo that would make more power, and lag less... I'd be sold
OK, and not cost a fortune. I imagine you could accomplish more power and less lag with a twin scroll setup for a mere... Say... 2-3thousand dollars?
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:31 PM   #17
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Super 16G is your answer Flows 580 cfm and still spools like a VF30 (usually, depending on tune and supporting mods of course)

sounds like our goals are similar, only difference is I've already got one of these sitting in my bedroom
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrinkleboi
Super 16G is your answer Flows 580 cfm and still spools like a VF30 (usually, depending on tune and supporting mods of course)

sounds like our goals are similar, only difference is I've already got one of these sitting in my bedroom

I think everyone's goals are the same:

"I want more power than anything else on the road, with NO LAG"

I've heard great things about the Super 16G. 580cfm? Wow! That's some serious power there... Maybe some day.
I find the "spools like a VF30" hard to believe though. You really think it would hit full boost at or below 3000RPM?
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:44 PM   #19
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on my 18g ive hit full boost (1.5bar) at 3100 in 5th with a fmic and headers before. usually in 3rd i hit full boost at 3.7k
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:53 PM   #20
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true true... we all want a completely lagless 600 whp...

as far as spoolup of the Super 16G... I wouldnt say it hits 1 bar at or below 3000 but I didnt think a VF30 did either. I would say a tuned Super 16G with supporting mods should be at 1 bar (on its way to 1.5) at about 3200-3400 MAX, like I said I gauge this in 4th gear.
The way I figure, my untuned VF34 probably hits full boost at exactly the same time as the Super 16G will with a custom tune, only difference is bigger turbo plus tune will probably equate to ~60 more whp than I have currently on my VF34 and base map.
although the wheels on the 16G and 18G are larger and flow more, the mitsu wheel design is very efficient and by matching compressor and exhaust wheels carefully they can achieve earlier spool than other turbo designs.
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Old 05-10-2006, 11:56 PM   #21
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how hard would it be for you to switch to a US WRX ecu so you can tune with enginuity or openecu with the openport cable?

They sell modified injectors top or sidefeed at really good prices.
http://www.deatschwerks.com/subaru.htm

how about external wastegate setup?

jay
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:17 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illmatic
how hard would it be for you to switch to a US WRX ecu so you can tune with enginuity or openecu with the openport cable?

They sell modified injectors top or sidefeed at really good prices.
http://www.deatschwerks.com/subaru.htm

how about external wastegate setup?
External wastegate? At 300AWHP? Not needed I don't think.

jay
It would be doable, but I don't think it would be very straight forward... There is a lot missing on a JDM car that the WRX ECU would want; fuel tank pressure sensors, a second O2, OBD2 port, etc... I would need a us harness and it would probably take almost as much time as it took for me to do the swap in the first place.
Plus, its all extra money, and right now I need tires and a new tranny more than I need extra horsepower.
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:54 AM   #23
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:04 AM   #24
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looks like it kicks in at 3300-3500, thats a vf22? if so im running a similar setup, 97 jdm wrx motor with stock vf22...will have my car back with the front clip parts installed soon from stock 2.5NA...cant wait to see how it feels, i drove a civic hatchback before with turbo and its quick with 261whp and a gutted rear ;] untuned my civic should beat it on the highway...getting an aem ems soon though ;]
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:37 AM   #25
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Most people only think that a VF22 is "laggy" because most people think "its a big turbo". Its still a tiny turbo and it isn't laggy at all. Your picture also presents one flaw - we know that the tachs are often not accurate and sometimes off by as much as 300 rpm.

Code:
 2876, -8.1,1.3,  0, 00,   00,  W/B ,+11.7,   4.5,ECU. , -7.2,ECU.  ,1.2, 15.94
 2858,-11.0,1.5,  1, 00,   00,  W/B , +4.4,   6.2,ECU. , -7.2,ECU.  ,1.7, 21.93
 2886,-10.8,2.2, 14, 00,   00,  W/B ,+10.2,   7.3,ECU. , -7.2,ECU.  ,2.3, >25:1
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 2986, +2.9,2.9,101, 20,   00,  W/B ,+32.9,  15.6,+21.8,-12.5,WGS.  ,2.5, 13.65
 3016, +3.7,2.9,101, 20,   00,  W/B ,+32.8,  16.8,+21.5,-12.4,WGS.  ,2.5, 13.09
 3041, +4.9,2.9,101, 30,   00,  W/B ,+32.7,  17.2,+21.2,-12.5,WGS.  ,2.6, 12.67
 3066, +5.9,3.1,101, 30,   00,  W/B ,+32.6,  18.5,+20.8,-12.2,WGS.  ,2.7, 12.39
 3103, +7.4,3.0,101, 40,   00,  W/B ,+31.0,  20.4,+20.2,-12.0,250.00,2.6, 12.23
 3129, +8.6,3.1,101, 40,   00,  W/B ,+30.7,  22.3,+19.7,-11.9,250.00,2.7, 12.00
 3138, +9.8,3.2,102, 50,   00,  W/B ,+29.3,  23.7,+19.3,-12.2,250.00,2.8, 11.84
 3239,+11.0,3.1,101, 50,   00,  W/B ,+29.3,  24.2,+18.7,-11.5,250.00,2.9, 11.61
 3239,+12.3,3.3,101, 60,   00,  W/B ,+29.0,  27.8,+18.1,-11.0,250.00,2.8, 11.30
 3297,+13.5,3.4,101, 60,   00,  W/B ,+28.2,  27.8,+17.6,-11.4,250.00,3.0, 11.05
 3330,+14.5,3.4,101, 70,   00,  W/B ,+27.5,  29.0,+17.1,-11.4,250.00,2.9, 10.87
 3415,+15.5,3.4,100, 70,   00,  W/B ,+26.8,  30.5,+17.0,-11.1,250.00,3.1, 10.78
 3561,+16.1,3.6,101, 70,   00,  W/B ,+26.7,  33.6,+16.5,-10.1,250.00,3.2, 10.67
 3486,+16.9,3.6,102, 80,   00,  W/B ,+25.3,  34.8,+16.6,-10.9,250.00,3.1, 10.56
 3595,+18.0,3.4,101, 80,   00,  W/B ,+26.2,  34.7,+16.5,-10.9,250.00,3.0, 10.45
 3568,+18.4,3.7,102, 80,   00,  W/B ,+24.9,  36.8,+16.5,-10.6,250.00,3.2, 10.48
 3654,+18.2,3.6,101, 70,   00,  W/B ,+24.9,  37.1,+16.5,-10.4,250.00,3.2, 10.56
 3724,+18.4,3.7,101, 80,   00,  W/B ,+24.2,  38.3,+16.5,-10.0,250.00,3.1, 10.64
 3770,+18.4,3.6,101, 80,   00,  W/B ,+24.3,  37.5,+16.5,-10.0,250.00,3.3, 10.71
The UTEC smooths out boost values so pay attention to the load site. I'm making target boost before 3500 RPM. I've hit 21 PSI in that same range as well. Tuning will not get you that much more spool so don't get your hopes up. Stock EJ205, stock exhaust manifold (not ported). Its all in the mechanics so free up the flow.
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