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Old 05-11-2006, 02:25 PM   #1
The Phenx
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Default Prodrive CEL HELP!!!

Ive got a PPP3 and several other mods.

Fidanza Flywheel
Gp Moto Short Ram
Sti Scoop
Water Sprayer
Koyo Radiator
Prodrive Blue Springs

I have a very persistant CEL problem.

p301 p302 p303 p304

I throw one ever morning or afternoon. Basically whenever i start the car.

The freeze frame always has it at below 80 degrees engine temp.

Now i know of the TSB for wrx's with cold start "ghost" missfire codes.
Had this problem stock... then i got it stock reflashed with the latest subaru logic and the problem was solved... then did the PP3 and now its back.

Dan at prodrive is saying they didnt overwrite that part of the logic.. BUT obviously something is off... and their customer service SUCKS. Never one responce to emails and getting any answers over the phone is horrendous. So im kinda out of options.

I have to baby the thing and let it warm up for 5 minutes before every time i drive it or i throw a CEL. Its driving me nuts. I went this route cause it was supposed to be plug and play.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what i can do?

TIA

Scott
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:42 PM   #2
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You could dump your ROM and overwrite the CEL's to turn them off. Where are you located?
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Old 05-11-2006, 04:56 PM   #3
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Northern Va.

I know what a miss feels like.. and i feel nothing. Either it is SO sensitive that its malfunctioning or something.

And its not the flywheel miss.. those tend to have a flashing CEL...

Besides once the temp comes us just past the "C" range up i can flog the hell out of it without ever Getting a CEL. Just on a cold engine.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:51 PM   #4
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Light flywheels can give solid CELs. My bet is it's the flywheel.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:52 PM   #5
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I vote flywheel. I had a PPP3 for a long time and never got CEL. I would also go back to the stock intake and see if it corrects itself, since this would be an easy fix.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:06 PM   #6
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Yes but my point is.. it didnt do it before the pp3 reflash, and i had the flywheel then, and all the other mods. It was working fine with no CEL's. And now since the reflash it only throws a code it while the engine temp is below 80 degrees.

As far as the intake Dan at Prodrive reccomended i get rid of the stock airbox... his actual reccomendation was in the Injen V2 CAI, but i already had the gpmoto laying around. So i dont think itll be that causing the code.

I was half tempted to ditch the pp3 flash go back to stock where it works and get a utec, but i love the tune and the way it performs, so im loath to get rid of it.. plus the additional expense , its just frustrating. And even more so since prodrive might as well not exist once they have sold the parts.

For the premier company they really have the worst service ive ever seen.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:13 PM   #7
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Sounds like they used a known Subaru ECU CalID ROM that has problems in cold temps. Do you have a Tactrix cable or anyone nearby that has one? This can be easily resolved.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:16 PM   #8
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MY03 WRX A4TC100L - Has Problems with Misfires above/below 158F
MY03 WRX A4TC101L - Has Problems with Misfires above/below 158F
MY03 WRX A4TC300L - Has Problems with Misfires above/below 158F

MY03 WRX A4TC400L - SOA Reflash includes fixes for start above 158F
MY03 WRX A4TC401L - SOA Reflash includes fixes for Misfire Codes during starts with engine temps above & below 158F.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:42 PM   #9
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When you had these problems before the reflash, did you have the lightened flywheel on it then also? Or have these misfires been there since you purchased the car. Basically when did the missfires start to occur, after what modifications?

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Old 05-11-2006, 06:48 PM   #10
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I think he explained it with:
Quote:
Yes but my point is.. it didnt do it before the pp3 reflash, and i had the flywheel then, and all the other mods. It was working fine with no CEL's. And now since the reflash it only throws a code it while the engine temp is below 80 degrees.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboge
I think he explained it with:
Just wanted to make sure that is what he meant. Sometimes people believe it to be one thing when it really is something else. It is sort of like playing doctor.

But if that is the case, my thought is that the ECU is too lean when it is warming up, causing the car to throw a misfire. Basically the warm up characteristics are set improperly from the sounds of it.

But I would like to know more about when the flywheel went in, as the Fidanza is well known to throw misfires.

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:58 PM   #12
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I am running the stock air intake and Autospeed lightweight flywheel w/the PPP III. I had the light flywheel before the PPP III was installed and have had no problems. Also, I had a Uni Filter short ram intake and my car before and while running the PPP III. My car runs much better with stock intake.

Last edited by johnnyb; 05-11-2006 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb
I am running the stock air intake and Autospeed lightweight flywheel w/the PPP III. I had the light flywheel before the PPP III was installed and have had no problems. Also, I had a Uni Filter short ram intake and my car before and while running the PPP III. My car runs much better with stock intake.
Intakes will have a LARGE impact on the tune more so than you think. When the intake pipe is changed, the MAF calibration tables become compromised because of the improper. Sometimes this can help horsepower on the top end by leaning out the Air/Fuel mixture, but in turn can cause cruising speeds and warm up conditions to become lean. In turn this will also throw misfires codes.

When installing a shelf map into the car, if the ECu was programmed for a specific intake (stock) and another one is installed it will alos compromise the tune. Once again throwing lean codes and misfire codes under certain conditions.

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:43 AM   #14
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Ok to give timelines

I bought the car with a blown clutch (good way to get $1500 off since im good with a wrench, i custom build offroad racers)

Replaced clutch with exedy, and put a fidanza aluminum flywheel in.

Put on Gp-Moto Intake. And water sprayer

Drove car for first time, is a lot quicker than the stock ones i drove, I am happy.

It throws missfire codes, p301-304.

Pisses me off.

Get reflashed with updated subaru logic, still missfiring. (or claiming it is)

Discover stock battery is half empty on fluid, chuck it in favor of an optima, re-wire all main powers and grounds, with 4 gauge to body, trans, etc etc.

Viola no more missfire codes.

8k miles later still no miss codes.

Put in new radiator cause old one craps out...

5 k miles still no miss codes.

Find a New PP3 kit with an already re-flashed computer for sale on ebay titled wrong so no one is bidding. Pick it up for $1250

Install Kit. Car hauls ass.. dyno'd to 259.1 to the wheels ...do a lil happy dance.

Start getting miss codes about a week later

P-301-304

Pissed off...spend 3 months on the phone and email attempting to get someone at Prodrive to deal with the problem or at least just answer me. Ready to drive to prodrive and ram car thru their store.

Finally their GM Horacio steps up... has Dan reflash my stock ecu, since their opinion is that since it wasnt missing with the stock one that if they re-flash that then it will still work fine with the prodrive tune on it.

Install new computer, two weeks all is well, then its starts throwing codes

P301-304

Email prodrive again.. as usual no responce at all from them.

Want to kill. But will settle for saying PRODRIVES SERVICE SUCKS BEYOND ANYTHING IVE EVER SEEN. AND I WILL NEVER EVER EVER DEAL WITH THEM AGAIN.

Write NASOIC because there are a lot more people here that can help and are willing to do so because they are car folks.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboge
Sounds like they used a known Subaru ECU CalID ROM that has problems in cold temps. Do you have a Tactrix cable or anyone nearby that has one? This can be easily resolved.
Ummm what is this exactly, and what will i be doing with it. Buddy is was a service manager for subaru and now is (i believe) andrewworks head tech. So if anyone has access he will.

Scott
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford/I-Speed
Intakes will have a LARGE impact on the tune more so than you think. When the intake pipe is changed, the MAF calibration tables become compromised because of the improper. Sometimes this can help horsepower on the top end by leaning out the Air/Fuel mixture, but in turn can cause cruising speeds and warm up conditions to become lean. In turn this will also throw misfires codes.
I thought that as long as the internal dimensions of the intake pipe did not change that it didnt affect the MAF readings? Now Cobb claims you will get turbulence and that is why you should buy their intake. And Dan at prodrive Says use the Injen V2 Cai, because the stock airbox sucks, and the CAI will help prevent Det'ing with the increased boost during the summer months, and makes a huge difference with the prodrive tune.

Im fine with getting my suby to a ECUTECH tuner to more custom tailor it to my vehicle, no worries there. Couple hundred $$ to not deal with this #($**@*@ missfire anymore would be well worth it.

I just need the correct solution and a game plan.

S
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Old 05-16-2006, 01:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenx
Ok to give timelines

I bought the car with a blown clutch (good way to get $1500 off since im good with a wrench, i custom build offroad racers)

Replaced clutch with exedy, and put a fidanza aluminum flywheel in.

Put on Gp-Moto Intake. And water sprayer

Drove car for first time, is a lot quicker than the stock ones i drove, I am happy.

It throws missfire codes, p301-304.

Pisses me off.

Get reflashed with updated subaru logic, still missfiring. (or claiming it is)

Discover stock battery is half empty on fluid, chuck it in favor of an optima, re-wire all main powers and grounds, with 4 gauge to body, trans, etc etc.

Viola no more missfire codes.

8k miles later still no miss codes.

Put in new radiator cause old one craps out...

5 k miles still no miss codes.

Find a New PP3 kit with an already re-flashed computer for sale on ebay titled wrong so no one is bidding. Pick it up for $1250

Install Kit. Car hauls ass.. dyno'd to 259.1 to the wheels ...do a lil happy dance.

Start getting miss codes about a week later

P-301-304

Pissed off...spend 3 months on the phone and email attempting to get someone at Prodrive to deal with the problem or at least just answer me. Ready to drive to prodrive and ram car thru their store.

Finally their GM Horacio steps up... has Dan reflash my stock ecu, since their opinion is that since it wasnt missing with the stock one that if they re-flash that then it will still work fine with the prodrive tune on it.

Install new computer, two weeks all is well, then its starts throwing codes

P301-304

Email prodrive again.. as usual no responce at all from them.

Want to kill. But will settle for saying PRODRIVES SERVICE SUCKS BEYOND ANYTHING IVE EVER SEEN. AND I WILL NEVER EVER EVER DEAL WITH THEM AGAIN.

Write NASOIC because there are a lot more people here that can help and are willing to do so because they are car folks.
The only thing I have noticed here is the intake is aftermarket. Have you tried to put the stock one back on to see what happens. Aftermarket intakes can work sometimes and not others. This has to do with climate changes, especially temperature where the ECU can adapt to a certain point but as the temperature changes so does that ECU learning limit.

I would suggest installing all the parts on the car the way it should be for that particular setup. It sounds like to me it might be the intake is just off enough to make it run a little lean, which will throw codes.

You do get misfire codes at idle correct?

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.
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Old 05-16-2006, 01:21 PM   #18
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Im not entirely sure when they are occuring... typically if i let it sit and idle till its completely warm before driving it wont throw any codes.

but when it does throw codes the freeze frame always seems to suggest a very low temperature. 74 degrees and below... i wish i had checked the rpm, but from what i remember it varies.

The check engine light doesnt come on till i am driving however, im not sure what the delay is.

As far as the intake...i can try, i had put it back on a while ago and remember the performance not being nearly as nice, but that was before the ppp3. Ill drop it back on and reset the computer and see what happens.

guess its worth a shot.

S
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenx
Im not entirely sure when they are occuring... typically if i let it sit and idle till its completely warm before driving it wont throw any codes.

but when it does throw codes the freeze frame always seems to suggest a very low temperature. 74 degrees and below... i wish i had checked the rpm, but from what i remember it varies.

The check engine light doesnt come on till i am driving however, im not sure what the delay is.

As far as the intake...i can try, i had put it back on a while ago and remember the performance not being nearly as nice, but that was before the ppp3. Ill drop it back on and reset the computer and see what happens.

guess its worth a shot.

S
At what point does it come on? Cruising conditions or something else? Does it happen usually around 2800-3000 RPM's?

Let me know,
William T. Knose Jr.
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:19 AM   #20
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Yep almost always 2-3000 rpm...light throttle. Never seen it at idle.
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenx
Yep almost always 2-3000 rpm...light throttle. Never seen it at idle.
Does the car stutter at all, even lightly in that RPM range?

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Old 05-18-2006, 11:26 AM   #22
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I suppose you could say ever so slightly...like almost indistinguishable against road vibrations. So slightly that ive never suspected it was running bad. And there certainly isnt a loss of power. However there is occasionally surging with a cold motor.

btw...since monday hasnt thrown a code, but this is with a full warmup before driving. Just testing to see if it will consistantly not come up by doing this. Then starting next week ill just drive it nromally let it throw the CEL's ...and i will write down the freeze frame data to give to you.
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:08 AM   #23
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I have PPP3 and spoke to Simon once about the setup. Prodrive does view an intake as not bad.
But, they make a a sharp difference between a shorty and a cold intake. If you look back at what Simon has posted on this board, he always was talking about short rams as a downgrade and advising against them. He once aluded to have had tested many of the intakes, with a Prodrive setup, on dyno. He had spoken to me about a cold intake and advised against a short intake.
When I had dynoed my car, we noticed how rich PPP3 left it at the top range. Others on this board also noticed that prodrive maps are left quite rich. Simon at one point wrote that he was considering to offer a slightly leaner update to his maps. So maybe there is room for variations in a/f ratios but maybe intake temperatures become important, with PPP3, especially since you're fully using the stock turbo, pushing 18 PSI or more.

Nice dyno result though.
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:31 AM   #24
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Since this post ive done a lot of reserach into intake temps...and found the bad sides of a SRI can be totally negated with a well designed heat shield. Search under SPT HEATSHIELD if you want to see.

As for the A/F i switched out to spt, so im dobting SOA made their dimensions wrong.

But as an update, ive since gotten some results over at prodrive... i spoke with a very knowledgeable programmer over there who helped me discover what we believe is the root of the problem.

I recieved a downpipe with no EGT bung in it. So following Dan@ prodrives advice i put a resistor in, instead of the sensor.

Well...apparently the suby tune uses the egt sensor to help determine if a vehicle is misfiring. One way it does this is if it see's unnaturally high egt's. My car only reads missfires at warm up... well.. in theory because, as soon as i start it up the resistor i put in is telling the compuuter i have 1250 degree exhaust instantaneously. once it warms up this is normal..so no normal temp missfires.

So Prodrive america sent me out a new DP and ill be putting in on as well as a egt senson this weekend... and i should be in business.. i hope anyway.

S
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:41 AM   #25
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Your answer is actually a good one and it helps to get the final resolution , for the record, for others to see in the future.
In my case it's different. I also have the downpipe without EGT bung. I bought it off of ebay-uk. it's the newer split-bellmouth design. I also use the resistor instead of it.
I never had any cells of the type you describe.
So you had me thinking, but then I remember telling Simon about this before sending him the ECU, so maybe he accounted for that in the tune.
The great thing is though, that if I do get the cell, I'll know where to look. Thanks.

I know about the SPT intake and remember reading something about the intake temperatures and their explanation of why they made a shorty either in the performance magazine, or here. I recall not being satisfied with their explanation.
Also, an argument against SPT doing things right is their oiled intake filter. How can you say that you have a "proper" intake, yet oil the MAF by using an oiled filter. Conveniently, in their interviews they didn't say a word about that (to my knowledge at least, or as far as I've followed that tread, until a month ago)

How many PSI do you see these days? I only see 17.5, never saw any more, maybe I have a boost leak
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