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Old 10-10-2001, 12:12 AM   #1
mcgyver
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Question Pull Heads or Pull Motor?

I'm replacing my head gaskets on my MY98 DOHC RS-T.

Basically what's your opinion, easier to pull the heads or easier to pull the motor?

The Haynes manual suggest pulling the Heads with the engine in the car, but that's based on a Legacy though.

Now, I've got plenty of tools, a shop, extra cars and about two weeks before a road trip.

Also, I did a Compression Test, and got a gradual increase up to 175psi on all four cylinders.

Any comments/suggestions?

Thanks,
Adam
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Old 10-10-2001, 01:27 AM   #2
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I would think that, based on what a PITA is can be do just do the plugs, that pulling the whole motor might be easier in the long run. Having never done this, don't take my word as the only word .

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Old 10-10-2001, 01:38 AM   #3
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Well, have you ever looked at the procedure to torque down the head bolts? My guess is no if you're still thinking of just pulling the heads out.

My personal opinion is that if you have to pull the heads, and when you do that you'll have to, no matter what, drain both the oil and coolant, you might as well pull the motor, or at least lift it up a good couple of feet. Yeah, you'll have to disconnect the trans as well, but you don't have to pull the clutch off the flywheel, so you won't necessarily need any special tools.

BTW, going back to the head torquing procedure... read it and figure it out before making that decision above.
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Old 10-10-2001, 01:51 AM   #4
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you can;t pull the heads without at least lifting the motor. I tried last week. you can get the passenger side but not the driver side.

Eric
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Old 10-10-2001, 02:58 AM   #5
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i say pull the motor...makes it ALOT easier tto put back together and that head torquing procedure is a BITCH!!! Much easier done on an engine stand.

Just my $.02

Jeremy
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Old 10-10-2001, 05:09 AM   #6
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Thanks, that's what I thought

I don't really know why I would have even considered otherwise.

Anyways, I just got back from my shop. I removed the intake manifold and everything else that needs to come off. All I have to do tomorrow is get an engine hoist and pull it out.

After doing all that, it just wouldn't make any sense Not to pull the motor. It's about the same amount of labor with probably half the frustration, if any.

Did anyone actually drain the block from the BIG Allen plugs?

Also, the A/C Comp. kinda sucks, but it seems loose/flexible enough to move aside when pulling the motor.

Later,
Adam
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Old 10-10-2001, 05:18 AM   #7
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The big allen plugs on the front face of the block? Those are there so that you can access the wrist pins and pull the pistons out...

I drained the oil through the normal means (filter/plug in pan), and the coolant by pulling the bottom hose off the block (messy, but very effective).
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Old 10-10-2001, 05:44 AM   #8
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Sorry 8,

No, I know those are on the side of the block. There are 2 similar Big Allens on the bottom. On either side of the Oil pan, just below each head.

Just noticed that I forgot to mention [coolant plugs]

But it doesn't really matter, because I did the same. I just pulled the lower radiator hose like I normally do.

-Adam
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Old 10-10-2001, 12:17 PM   #9
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you can use those core plugs to drain the block...it's EXTREMELY effective. I do it on the motor teardowns i do. Easiest way to get all the coolant out of the block on a honda. Just remember to ahve your radiator cap off so it'll drain real fast and it won't come in waves.

jeremy
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Old 10-10-2001, 12:22 PM   #10
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one perhaps easier way to drain the coolant on a Subaru is to just unbolt the coolant thermostat housing. It's the lowest point in the system anyway, so it you're willing to wait a little while it will all come out. those big plugs are darn near impossible to get out -- not to mention, I couldn't even find a 14mm hex wrench at the hardware store, so I gave up trying.

-Edwin
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Old 10-10-2001, 02:37 PM   #11
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FYI I had to buy a 5/8 hex driver and grind it down to remove the plugs. *#**^&#!!

Remove the motor and stay away from the plugs to make your life easier. Luck.

Mike McBride
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Old 10-10-2001, 02:53 PM   #12
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8 got his 14mm hex at autozone....i have one in my master set but at the time that was locked in my tool box which was locked inside a dealership on a sunday.

jeremy
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Old 10-11-2001, 02:02 AM   #13
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It's all good, I pulled the motor today, got it on a stand and pulled the heads tonight after work.

The gaskets are so new (6 months/5k miles) that they just came off, no scraping no residual gasket remaining. The block and head are still clean from when it was done last time.

It appears that Cylinder #3 was the main culprit & also #1 somewhat. Just beneath the the cylinders about 6 O'clock, there's carbon from the combustion. It clearly escaped beneath the gasket into the coolant passages. Also the black flakes that I saw in the coolant, are clearly from the gasket because it's missing right at that spot.

I've got some pics, I'll try to post them.

-Adam
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Old 10-11-2001, 02:44 AM   #14
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are you planning on running copper head gaskets?? oh yeah you should replace the bolts as well, i would personally look for a stronger bolt to replace it with. I am a big fan of head stud kits. Are you going to be building a lower end as well??

jeremy
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Old 10-11-2001, 02:47 AM   #15
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replacing the bolts is a must! never reuse headbolts

Eric
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Old 10-11-2001, 03:06 AM   #16
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Here's the Right Head (Passenger)

Notice the carbon at the bottom of the #3 chamber, some on #1 also, but not quite like the other. It passes right through to the coolant passages.
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Old 10-11-2001, 03:09 AM   #17
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And here's the Gasket, notice where the black is missing? The gasket is flipped down so the top is really the bottom.
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Old 10-11-2001, 03:16 AM   #18
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I have a set of MY99 SOHC gaskets, so I may use those. I'm having a helluva time finding anything else, especially Copper.

About the Head Bolts, supposedly they're stretch bolts, so can't be used again. I trying to find a set of stud bolts, hopefully they can combat the problem better.

Anyone have any info on these things?

And I'm leaving the block alone, it seems fine.

Oddly enough after 47k miles, the cross-hatched lines from honing are still present. Thought those would be long gone by now.

I've got more pics if anyone request anything specific.

-Adam
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Old 10-11-2001, 04:00 AM   #19
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adam did you call up gino?
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Old 10-11-2001, 04:07 AM   #20
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Nope

I just did all this today.

What's up with yours?
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Old 10-11-2001, 04:32 AM   #21
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not unusual for those lines to be there still, the sleeves they run are usually pretty strong....my boss 89 Civic Si still had the factory cross hatching in the block with over 40k miles of nitrous in the total 80k on the motor....if you are wondering it melted a valve, no other engine damage. Kinda cool if you ask me, that was really the first import motor i ever built. Needless to say i was amazed.

jeremy
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Old 10-11-2001, 05:03 AM   #22
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havent got the car in yet.
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Old 10-11-2001, 07:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
I have a set of MY99 SOHC gaskets, so I may use those. I'm having a helluva time finding anything else, especially Copper.
I have been doing a little research into this myself. Try Paeco Industries. Someone mentioned them in a post earlier this week. However, it's $330 a pair for a V6 application (closest thing to an H4 application). I think I will go with o-ringing the heads instead.

Quote:
About the Head Bolts, supposedly they're stretch bolts, so can't be used again. I trying to find a set of stud bolts, hopefully they can combat the problem better.
For head bolts, try ARP. A fellow i-Club member (ttoversteer) recommended them. However, I have not yet contacted them regarding a Subaru application. You are more than welcome to be the pioneer.

Quote:
I've got more pics if anyone request anything specific.
I'm interested to see what the head gasket construction looks like. Is it made of steel sealing surfaces with graphite composite filler (EJ18, EJ22 & EJ22T), or a 3-ply metal sandwich (MY95-MY98 EJ25), or a thin metal-on-metal sheet (MY00+)?

Here's my collection:

EJ18 Head Gasket (new)

EJ22 Head Gasket (used and blown)

EJ22T Head Gasket (new)

Thanks Adam,

-WaC
Wayne
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Old 10-11-2001, 12:37 PM   #24
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Wac,

I'll try to get some more pics today, these are MY98 DOHC 3-Layer. They're quite thick compared to MY99 SOHC, I'll measure the difference. The 3-Layer DOHC are about 1.5mm and the SOHC are [probably] about .5mm, but like I said, I'll confirm this.

A machinist I spoke with recommended ARP also, but he couldn't find anything Subaru specific. I'll look into that further also maybe we can make something work.

Thanks,
Adam
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Old 10-13-2001, 12:09 AM   #25
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Wac,

Here's a pic for your collection, it's my Bad MY98 DOHC 3-Layer HG.
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