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Old 05-26-2006, 11:41 AM   #1
keaniegenie
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Default JDM ver. 7 ...are they anything special?

I'm considering buying some ver. 7 sti cams. Will I need new retainers and valves? I'm pretty novice to engine building. I have regular WRX heads, and I know I can wire in AVCS to my WRX heads with my hydra per Phil, but I don't know if it's worth an extra few hundred bucks to get ver. 7 cams instead of standard USDM sti cams.
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Old 05-26-2006, 02:28 PM   #2
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wiring in the AVCS on reg. wrx heads is gonna be tricky, if even possible.....Sent you a pm
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Old 05-26-2006, 03:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peeblesmx445
wiring in the AVCS on reg. wrx heads is gonna be tricky, if even possible.....Sent you a pm
That sounds right. As far as I know it would be difficult to make sure oil is getting everywhere on the AVCS cams while in the WRX heads, and I don't think you can just tap out certain places to make that happen.
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:28 PM   #4
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Not too hard when you have a Hydra

It's about 2 hours of labor. Not too tough. All you need is AVCS cams and a Hydra
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Old 05-26-2006, 11:29 PM   #5
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Yes you can wire the AVCS up to your Hydra in a WRX if you have AVCS heads. How are you going to control the AVCS cams inside your wrx heads, you know you need an AVCS solenoid which is not on your wrx heads right?

-Dan
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Old 05-27-2006, 01:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan avoN7
Yes you can wire the AVCS up to your Hydra in a WRX if you have AVCS heads. How are you going to control the AVCS cams inside your wrx heads, you know you need an AVCS solenoid which is not on your wrx heads right?

-Dan

According to Phil, you only need AVCS cams, and some wiring. I'm not sure on the Solenoids.
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Old 05-27-2006, 08:56 AM   #7
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Your not asking Phil the right question then. He is most likely assuming you have AVCS compatable heads. You can NOT run AVCS by just slapping AVCS cams into a set of non-AVCS heads. You can run those cams, but you will have no control over the AVCS.

-Matt
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Old 05-27-2006, 04:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaniegenie
According to Phil, you only need AVCS cams, and some wiring. I'm not sure on the Solenoids.
yea as shaggy said you are asking the wrong question The Hydra can control AVCS through the solenoids, so if you have a wrx with a set of AVCS heads then you are good to go (i did it in my car with the hydra) However just slapping a set of AVCS cams in a normal set of heads without any solenoids will not allow you to control it, there is nothing for you to wire the hydra up to...
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Old 05-27-2006, 04:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyGT
Your not asking Phil the right question then. He is most likely assuming you have AVCS compatable heads. You can NOT run AVCS by just slapping AVCS cams into a set of non-AVCS heads. You can run those cams, but you will have no control over the AVCS.

-Matt
The conversation was VERY specific. It was actually originally with Garret at World One. Phil told him it requires AVCS cams and some wiring. If I'm wrong, then it was a miscommunication between Phil and Garret. However, it wasn't like I asked about it. Garret TOLD me this, and told me there's a wiring diagram to make it work.
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Old 05-27-2006, 05:18 PM   #10
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yes there is a wiring diagram for the hydra to the avcs solenoids. I used it when wiring up the hydra to the v7 motor i swapped in my wrx. but you have to look at the entire picture, if you just put a set of cams inside the wrx heads, what will control them? You need a solenoid on the heads in order to control the cams and this is something your wrx heads are missing. it's as simple as that, what are you going to wire the hydra to on the wrx heads..... I would check with them again and tell them you have wrx heads with no avcs solenoids, I think they thought u meant you have a wrx with an engine that has avcs heads.

heres the wiring, not sure what you are going to wire it to though, maybe the cam itself hah jk

Hydra Hookup

OEM Connector B84

Pin 6 for RH AVCS Solenoid (+)
Pin 12 for RH AVCS Solenoid (-)
Pin 16 for LH AVCS Solenoid (-)
Pin 17 for LH AVCS Solenoid (+)

-Dan
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Old 05-27-2006, 06:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaniegenie
The conversation was VERY specific. It was actually originally with Garret at World One. Phil told him it requires AVCS cams and some wiring. If I'm wrong, then it was a miscommunication between Phil and Garret. However, it wasn't like I asked about it. Garret TOLD me this, and told me there's a wiring diagram to make it work.
If you have seen any AVCS heads at all you should be able to answer your own question. Take the time to fully understand all thats going on with the AVCS and then u will be able to see that, unless the heads have solenoids then its not that easy. But really you guys some miss information from Garret, that happens time to time. The rest is true there is wiring to make it all work if u have the right hardware to do it.
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Old 05-27-2006, 08:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaniegenie
The conversation was VERY specific. It was actually originally with Garret at World One. Phil told him it requires AVCS cams and some wiring. If I'm wrong, then it was a miscommunication between Phil and Garret. However, it wasn't like I asked about it. Garret TOLD me this, and told me there's a wiring diagram to make it work.
OK, thats fine. Do some research before you drop money on something that someone tells you. I guarantee if you call and ask Garret again about needing AVCS Solenoid's then he will clear up what he said. As it has already been said, you cant control the AVCS without the Solenoid's. You can have a Hydra and all the wiring in the world, but what are you going to run the wires too? The Cams? No. You MUST have heads with the AVCS Solenoids in order to control the AVCS. So the conclusion to this, you need to purchase STi heads either USDM or JDM with AVCS and then you can set the Hydra up to control the cams.

-Matt
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Old 05-27-2006, 10:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyGT
OK, thats fine. Do some research before you drop money on something that someone tells you. I guarantee if you call and ask Garret again about needing AVCS Solenoid's then he will clear up what he said. As it has already been said, you cant control the AVCS without the Solenoid's. You can have a Hydra and all the wiring in the world, but what are you going to run the wires too? The Cams? No. You MUST have heads with the AVCS Solenoids in order to control the AVCS. So the conclusion to this, you need to purchase STi heads either USDM or JDM with AVCS and then you can set the Hydra up to control the cams.

-Matt
That sounds right. I'm not sure how difficult it is to add AVCS solenoids to non-avcs heads. I wish I had a better answer. The only questions I asked were what would it cost, and he told me.

I hate to sound like such a n00b, but I guess this is what it takes to learn. My response to Garret telling me you can run AVCS on non-avcs heads was, "What!?!" That's why I SPECIFICALLY remember him telling me it can be done. Bet my life on it. How? That I will find out.
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Old 05-27-2006, 10:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suby_dude
yes there is a wiring diagram for the hydra to the avcs solenoids. I used it when wiring up the hydra to the v7 motor i swapped in my wrx. but you have to look at the entire picture, if you just put a set of cams inside the wrx heads, what will control them? You need a solenoid on the heads in order to control the cams and this is something your wrx heads are missing. it's as simple as that, what are you going to wire the hydra to on the wrx heads..... I would check with them again and tell them you have wrx heads with no avcs solenoids, I think they thought u meant you have a wrx with an engine that has avcs heads.

heres the wiring, not sure what you are going to wire it to though, maybe the cam itself hah jk

Hydra Hookup

OEM Connector B84

Pin 6 for RH AVCS Solenoid (+)
Pin 12 for RH AVCS Solenoid (-)
Pin 16 for LH AVCS Solenoid (-)
Pin 17 for LH AVCS Solenoid (+)

-Dan

They know it's a non-avcs motor.

I hate feeling lost on this stuff. Oh well, I'll get the real answer soon enough. I really felt the same as what you guys are saying. I even faintly remember asking about the solenoids too. Hmmm.

I don't mean to doubt you guys on the subject. Again, I was told this, AND was surprised to hear it. Maybe it was misinformation between Phil and Garret, maybe it was between Garret and I, who knows.

The good thing is I have plenty of time to think about it. My build isn't to replace a blown motor. I have no idea when I'm doing the motor swap.
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Old 05-28-2006, 02:50 PM   #15
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Personal Exper. you will need the solenoids to run avcs. And it would be cheaper to find heads that have them on already.
Matt
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:05 AM   #16
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There are castings on the AVCS heads that the Solenoids mount on... the non-AVCS heads don't have them. There is also an elaborate oiling system for the solenoids that is specific solely to these heads.

Save the effort and headache and just buy version 7, 8 or 9 heads.

Last edited by Kreeger; 05-31-2006 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:29 AM   #17
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The AVCS solenoids themselves are not THAT expensive... ~$100 each. You would still need the piece of the heads that the solenoid inserts into though.

Here is a thread on some of differences between JDM and USMD AVCS solenoids aka oil control valves: JDM AVCS solenoid vs. USDM AVCS solenoid
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Old 06-01-2006, 02:27 PM   #18
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So much confusion, and putfile is acting up so I can't post a good picture. But here is a link to a shot of a cosworth STi head.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._1900_26139696

The big thingie on the front up high is the chamber for the AVCS. The solenoid bolts to it. It is part of the large front cam stay. This being the right side head, it is plumbed from the rear oil port with the turbo oil feed line. Internally it feeds oil through the cam stay, into journals around the front of the STi intake cam, which feeds through to the pully. The pully then alters its angle based on that oil pressure. The oil is then returned back through the cams journals and, I believe, through the head to the motor.

You can see the hole on the back for the cam sensor as well.

The front seal for the intake cam is larger than the cam, as the pully gear fits inside that seal. That keeps the return oil inside the motor. I don't know if that is how the WRX pully works but I doubt it since that gear doesn't need oil.

So, the head has more holes in it. The oil seal is different. The cam stay has more holes in it. And all three stays are specific to any given head, as they are machined together. They are stamped with numbers that match the head. New stays could probably be machined to work on a WRX head, but you would need to drill holes in that head to allow the oil to return to the block.

I'm rebuilding the computer that has my detailed shots. Once I get that up and running I'll try to remember to post them if they are relevant.
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2phless
So much confusion, and putfile is acting up so I can't post a good picture. But here is a link to a shot of a cosworth STi head.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c..._1900_26139696

The big thingie on the front up high is the chamber for the AVCS. The solenoid bolts to it. It is part of the large front cam stay. This being the right side head, it is plumbed from the rear oil port with the turbo oil feed line. Internally it feeds oil through the cam stay, into journals around the front of the STi intake cam, which feeds through to the pully. The pully then alters its angle based on that oil pressure. The oil is then returned back through the cams journals and, I believe, through the head to the motor.

You can see the hole on the back for the cam sensor as well.

The front seal for the intake cam is larger than the cam, as the pully gear fits inside that seal. That keeps the return oil inside the motor. I don't know if that is how the WRX pully works but I doubt it since that gear doesn't need oil.

So, the head has more holes in it. The oil seal is different. The cam stay has more holes in it. And all three stays are specific to any given head, as they are machined together. They are stamped with numbers that match the head. New stays could probably be machined to work on a WRX head, but you would need to drill holes in that head to allow the oil to return to the block.

I'm rebuilding the computer that has my detailed shots. Once I get that up and running I'll try to remember to post them if they are relevant.

Awesome. Thanks.

Sorry for being such a n00b to this category. I haven't chatted w/ Garret, but I'm sure there was a miscommunication some where. It happes some times.

Thanks for your help guys.
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Old 06-16-2006, 10:52 AM   #20
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Here's a quote from Phil in an email from the other day:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil @ Element Tuning
Here is how you wire the AVCS for the Hydra:



You do not wire in the AVCS sensors, just the solenoids since we run the AVCS in open loop for the WRX units.


Here are the AVCS wiring locations.



OEM Connector B84



Pin 6 for RH AVCS Solenoid (+)

Pin 12 for RH AVCS Solenoid (-)

Pin 16 for LH AVCS Solenoid (-)

Pin 17 for LH AVCS Solenoid (+)



What I had my tech do was follow these pins into the Hydra harness and just installed a connector there instead of adding pins into the OEM harness.
I guess that's what I might be doing since I have the jdm v7 heads but the ONLY thing missing is an exhaust cam gear. Stephen from IAPerformance tells me that only intake cam gears are AVCS specific and exhaust cam gears have the same number of teeth on AVCS heads and non-avcs WRX heads so I can reuse mine. That is really good news, I hope. Can anyone else confirm?

This is what he said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen @ IAPerformance
wrx exhaust cams gears are correct. Same number of teeth as JDM AVCS heads.
Only the intake cams are affected.

Last edited by InfamousDX; 06-16-2006 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 06-16-2006, 11:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcougar
The AVCS solenoids themselves are not THAT expensive... ~$100 each. You would still need the piece of the heads that the solenoid inserts into though.

Here is a thread on some of differences between JDM and USMD AVCS solenoids aka oil control valves: JDM AVCS solenoid vs. USDM AVCS solenoid
I actually just bought an AVCS solenoid from IAPerformance for $30.
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Old 06-16-2006, 12:29 PM   #22
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Keane...

I am sorry for any miscommunication, all that I meant to imply is that AVCS can be added to a WRX with a WRX hydra and AVCS heads by wiring up the solenoids. My intent was to downplay the complexity of the wiring portion of the installation, not to imply that you could do this with NON AVCS heads. Hope this helps.

Thanks,

W1
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Old 06-16-2006, 01:21 PM   #23
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not sure
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Old 06-16-2006, 05:55 PM   #24
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Some of the confusion comes from the two types of AVCS. One is based on a feed back loop (closed loop) and the other is open loop only. Either way, you need the solenoids and supporting cam sprockets and tubing. If you have the AVCS heads on an otherwise closed loop AVCS block you can run open loop by installing a hall effect sensor for the cam timing. I think that's right.

Element Tuning has an install description of the sensor install.
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