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Old 06-11-2006, 09:27 AM   #26
Rally_wgn
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Andys I'd like to point out that I posted this in the N/A forum because there are some us apparently "foolish" enuf to want to play with N/A power versus FI. Why FI fans have to come here and call us stupid is beyond me. I dont go to the FI forum and call FI fans stupid after they blow up motor after motor and spend $7000 on shortblock and forged internals. Enuf said on that point.

To your statement, I have searched for more than a year for turbo motors for a variety of reasons, and have never seen a turbo'd 2.0L or 2.2L available for less than $1200 and it had a spun bearing. Currently there are 3 2.5L N/a motors for sale on various sites and they are all $500 or more. YOu apparently got very lucky with yours.

As the post I made is general information for those interested in N/A power the cost I posted is based on information gleaned from a considerable amount of time researching the subject.

Your situation seems to be unique and there fore not very useful to the typical reader here. Now if you can post a website where we can get these $500 complete EJ207's then please do and I will add it to the post. At that price point it becomes a viable alternative to N/A build up.

Thank you for taking the time to read and contributing to my thread.

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Old 06-11-2006, 01:38 PM   #27
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Rally_wgn, Great stuff. That was alot of great info and you made it easy to find by putting it all together.

Nice job!

Dare I say, STICKY!! please.
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:03 PM   #28
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apparently you are not interested in a peer reviewed white paper

first ebay ht: (they are quite regularly there for $595 with AWIC, ECU, turbo, pipes, shafts and auto tranny.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUBAR...74210999QQrdZ1


this place ROCKS!

http://www.outbackmotors.com/subaru_JDM_motors.htm

And finally

Contact your local JDM engine importer (the high-volume replacement engine dude - not the rice shop, i.e. JDM Direct) and get the best price from him. I'd be suprised if you couldn't get a complete JDM legacy turbo engine for less than 750USD. http://www.usedengine.com/ . Again, not armchair theory. I have bought from these guys.

BTW I have an EJ25 so I am always interested in what people are doing. I'm thinking about that DELTA grind. However, the 2.5 is an amazing engine as it is.

PS Don't for get that ignorance and stupidity are two completey different things.

Last edited by andys; 06-11-2006 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:15 PM   #29
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:52 PM   #30
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This thread is exactly what I needed. Finally a thread that gives estimated pricing, gains, and just good info for the N/A guys. Just wondering though, is everything listed here in the order that someone should follow to go for an N/A build up? Like start with a CAI and end with high compression pistons? Great thread I think it should be stickied.
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:05 PM   #31
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Also any info on motor mounts or are they pointless?
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:25 PM   #32
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^
I don't thing motor mounts are power getters. Great write-up not as long as you made it sound. It should be stickied, or at least a thread of interest.
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:34 PM   #33
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Andys, no I am completely interested in peer review. But naysayers seem to plentiful when it comes to N/A tuning. But peer review does not mean I cant rebut the peers statements, it sharpens the knowledge base. For example, I questioned your statement that seemed to indicate that $500 turbo motors were easy to find. You attached some great links to great prices on EJ20's (none at $500 but $1000 a good starting point) this has helped everyone.

I'm not sure how to take your post script, are you calling me ignorant or just stupid I going to guess ignorant based on my previous post, and I couldn't disagree more but hey its just an internet post, hardly going to end terrorism or anything important.

T.C. the answer is yes, I tried to format the post based on the order that I would expect to do the mods in. This is certainly not a must, you could start with hi-comp pistons but with out supporting mods the motor would be gasping for air.
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:37 PM   #34
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Oh T.C. motor mounts, tranny mounts and bushings would all fall in the "small stuff category. They dont porduce any power but they supposedly transfer more power to driveline then stock mounts do. The down side being harsher noise and vibration.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:37 PM   #35
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he he, now i am hooked too! I spent all day tearing down my 25. time for some new pistons and cams.... thanks for the info. do you think you can run 11.2 to one one an oem bottom end?
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:52 PM   #36
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I wouldn't see why not, its when you get to 11.5 and beyond that it seems sketchy but that is pure speculation on my part. Hopefully Matt or Diz will step in with some good info. Tzedek says several guys around him are running 12.1, but I dont know what block they are using.

I believe Matt is building his on a EJ257, but SOLUTION maybe using a stock Phase II block on his build.

Ahh just build yours and tell us what you find out.

Also check out this:
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/news/300hpnamods

Speculation is that they are running in excess of 12.1:1 but they haven't spilled the beans last time I checked.

Pistons are listed at 11.2:1 hmmm...

Last edited by Rally_wgn; 06-12-2006 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:28 AM   #37
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I think the point of confusion between rally_wgn and Andys is that Andys is running an Ej20G from an early car. He is correct, that you can get the Legacy variants from an '89-94 Legacy for around $750 USD. So, not only is it not a modern WRX swap, it also poses a myriad of issues for anyone with a '96 or newer car looking to make power. That swap is only going to be easy to pass smog on an OBD-I car. Once you are into the OBD-II years, it's not a legal option in many places. And there is no way to make that JDM ECU OBD compliant. It's is misleading to make people think that it's cheap and easy, as it is not. And it is totally off topic and just reads to me as someone looking to toot his own horn...

Personally, I think the commentary totally detracts from the point of this thread as there are dozens of threads where guys argue back and forth NA vs Turbo. The purpose of this thread was to create a "blueprint" for NA mods that could be stickied for a reference. All this arguing about putting a turbo engine in is just selfish self centered BS. Do the community a favor and delete the comments and leave your self righteous posturing out of it...
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Old 06-12-2006, 11:44 AM   #38
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just curious as to how a throttle body spacer functions to increase hp/torque, gas mileage?

the only reason i would consider one (if the become available again from area1320) is to up gas mileage a bit. even if its a 1-2 mpg increase it would pay for itself in the long run (also a good point of leverage when discussing mod purchases with the lady)

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Old 06-12-2006, 11:46 AM   #39
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What about Hi-Flow cats? Like those made by Stromung and Random Tech? Seems like this should be included as well.

Jared
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Old 06-12-2006, 04:17 PM   #40
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Matt,

Are you saying that you can do all the other NA mods on an OBDII car and *still* pass emissions testing vis-a-vis actual gas analysis, nevermind the OBDII interface criteria? How common is OBDII interface testing in the US?

It's incredible how sensitive the NA power topic is! Gosh.
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Old 06-12-2006, 04:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andys
Matt,

Are you saying that you can do all the other NA mods on an OBDII car and *still* pass emissions testing vis-a-vis actual gas analysis, nevermind the OBDII interface criteria? How common is OBDII interface testing in the US?

It's incredible how sensitive the NA power topic is! Gosh.
The one thing on my car that poses a problem with OBD-II testing, which my car undergoes, on a dyno, and with the ECU plugged in, is the header. It causes the car to throw an '0420 cel code, even though my emissions numbers are within spec. Every 2 years, I remove my headers for a week or two while it clears the code and I go get tested. It's really only about 1.5 hours of my life every 2 years.

And OBD-II testing is becoming more and more widespread in the states. It's something that doesn't concern me because if I ever reach a point where my engine itself won't pass, I have a spare stock longblock sitting in the corner for just that purpose. But it is a very real consideration for many of the readers of this thread, who may make their decisions about what mods to do based upon smoggability or ease of removal come smog time. Try and undo a v2 swap on a '99 RS to pass smog???

As for the other thing about turbos? I thought I would add my 2 cents since rally_wgn was taking it on by himself. He covered the NA detractors in his opening statements, and I just thought it rude to start in about it. Like he said, most every NA power thread in this forum gets some yahoo that feels the overwhelming need to push the turbo formula and it's just a tired old dead beaten horse. As rally-wgn said in his opening, my car is faster than a stock WRX swapped RS and cost less than most swaps to do. Now, if I wanted 300chp, the cost effectivness of it goes out the window, as we all know. But I think his main point was that when people day in and day out say that a WRX swap is a cheaper way to equal power, it just isn't true without adding some disclaimers. It invariably gets into something about a TBE and upgraded turbo and injectors breaking 300chp. But that's another $1500-2000 on top of the swap, which somehow is conveniently left out of the opening remarks about doing a swap being cheaper. For 225chp, comparing an EJ205 swap to Ej25 power mods, it's about dead even, or maybe even a little in favour of the NA guy.

Lastly, 90% of the people who read this do not have the skills or facilities to do a swap like you and I do. A good shadetree can swap his Ej25 cams in 6-8 hours and have his car back on the road after a weekend in the garage. A swap takes on average 40-100 hours, and is not for the faint of heart. One thing to consider is audience. I too have done an old skool WRX swap for under $2000, and that included the car. But I don't go around bragging about it and treating it as commonplace. Dirtbag swappers like you and me are the exception, not the rule. And the audience here is largely fairly new to modding, and looking for some guidance on getting started. Swapping is definitely in the advanced category and not the beginner to intermediate category. Experts are generally NOT going to be the ones asking these question.

I do apologize for harshing on you earlier, but I just question someone's motives when they feel the need to argue in a thread that has explicitly ask for a little respect in biting your tongue. It came off as a "look at me, look what I can do!" and that got my goat...

Last edited by Matt Monson; 06-12-2006 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 06-12-2006, 04:47 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
Lastly, 90% of the people who read this do not have the skills or facilities to do a swap like you and I do. A good shadetree can swap his Ej25 cams in 6-8 hours and have his car back on the road after a weekend in the garage. A swap takes on average 40-100 hours, and is not for the faint of heart. One thing to consider is audience. I too have done an old skool WRX swap for under $2000, and that included the car. But I don't go around bragging about it and treating it as commonplace. Dirtbag swappers like you and me are the exception, not the rule.
Points taken.... except the one about facilities. My work is all done in a rain soaked alley in urban Vancouver. Facilities, no. Dirtbag swapper, all the way.

But I must warn you - I've got the dirtbag's low$$ power swap underway...

EJ25 DOHC, w/turbo manifolds, w/a VF10 running no boost control (direct manifold fed wastegate actuator - 5PSI), no intercooler, modified NA subframe all running on a MAF based OBDI 1.8 NA ECU with a low$$ programmable look up table based MAF AFR compensator (which can be adjusted to pass emissions).

..... but that's another thread in another forum I guess!!

Last edited by andys; 06-12-2006 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 06-12-2006, 04:48 PM   #43
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Hi Jared, thanks for giving the post a read. I guess I am assuming too much in the exhaust section. Most of the Headers sold are either sold with a Cat delete pipe or with high flow cat pipe that replaces you current cat.

Power gains from just a hi flow cat are little or none based on my research so far. Cat back upgrades give decent gains and the header, hi flow combo gives good gains. The two together are your typical full exhaust upgrade.

Matt, yeah I wasnt confused neccesarily its that my frame of reference is, as you mentioned, '96 and up especially the '98 - '05 RS community and '97 -'05 L /OBS community. That seems to be were most of the questions come from. I am aware you can find older turbo motors for around $1000 but again as you mention there are some significant issues in using these motors for swap in the newer generation of Imps.

Andys, we are not beign sensitive per se, its just that everytime some one logs on to the N/A Forum for specific information on N/A tuning someone with a WRX or a turboed car has to chime in and make everyone feel stupid for even answering the OPs question. After awhile it gets plain irritating. If the poster is asking whats a better value for my $2000, a turbo or n/a tuning then it makes sense for those who have swapped to contribute.

However I can not tell you how many times a poster says in the first paragraph," how do a make good power from my 2.5L or 2.2L motor and I'm not interested in turbo" and not two replies later you get the obligatory " its a waste of money just do a swap, N/A power is a waste of money!"Oops... I'm not trying to beat up on you Andys, apparently Matt and I were posting simultaneously

The point of my original document was to provide comprehensive list of generally accepted tuning options that for the most part provide real power gains for ppl interested in N/A tuning. It was also to suggest that with some patience it can be done in a reasonable budget that makes it a viable alternative to doing the swap thing.

ON the throttle body spacer, my understanding to the benefits of the device is derived from the effective lengthing of the plenum portion of the intake manifold. I read several articles on the web but really didnt bookmark them so I can provide a reference right now. This technique is not new, it is one of the older muscle car tuning tricks that is still used effectively today by the lovers of the big block motors.
1320 used to have dynos on it and a thread on www.rs25.com provides an extensive review, most of them quite favorable.
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Old 06-12-2006, 05:02 PM   #44
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Andys,
One other question for you... You mentioned wiring being only 6 or 7 wires? I am guessing that you are talking about for a Legacy?
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Old 06-12-2006, 05:54 PM   #45
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**sorry for the off topic rally wagon**

I can't remember all the details exactly but when I did the swap I did the following:

I brought ALL the EJ20G engine wiring in through the AC hole in the firewall. This is the engine harness and the boost control, ignitor wiring etc. wiring all in one wrap. I then connected the ECU plugs to the appropriate wires on this wrap. This is easy if you have the diagram. BUT you can't take any short cuts as it is important to separate the power and signal grounds as originally intended.

At this point I had BOTH sents of engine wiring in the car. It's not really that much wire really. Remember that most of the wiring is on the "engine" harness. I just supplied the to-the-engine-plug wiring.

To switch to the turbo setup I dropped in the engine, attached the connectors and then delt with the ecu.

The only remaining wires were something like: kain power, switched power, speed sensor input, tack output, diagnostic switches (I used these), check engine light and the fan relay. Maybe one or two more. I am convinced that if I did it right I could have left the old ECU connectors and had a completely swappable setup. NA to turbo to NA without much difficulty. However, I did end up cutting everything away.
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Old 06-12-2006, 06:31 PM   #46
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You didn't answer the question. It's a simple yes or no question, Is it a LEGACY?!?!?!??!?!?
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Old 06-12-2006, 07:15 PM   #47
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THE CURRENT ECU IS JDM LEGACY GT, THE CURRENT SHELL IS A 93 IMPREZA - ORIGINALLY WITH A EJ18 and AUTO.

Why do you ask?
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Old 06-13-2006, 10:35 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andys
THE CURRENT ECU IS JDM LEGACY GT, THE CURRENT SHELL IS A 93 IMPREZA - ORIGINALLY WITH A EJ18 and AUTO.

Why do you ask?
Because an Ej20G swap into a '90-94 Legacy really is truly about 6-7 wires, while for an Impreza it is more like 50-60 wires!!! Since the vast majority of owners here are Impreza people, I wanted to be sure they weren't being misled as to the ease of a swap. If it really were only a handful of wires, everyone and their mother would be doing swaps in their own driveway...
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Old 06-13-2006, 12:33 PM   #49
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like i said - once you bring EJ20G engine loom through the firewall you only need to *splice* into a small number of wires in the original impreza wiring. I think I only spent less than a day on this an nowhere near 40 hours... in my driveway. It's not very complicated at all. You just need to make sure you have enough "engine loom" wires to make it into the car. This may require some sorting out. It's not bad - especially if you have the hole in the firewall for the AC. The AC kinda makes things more complicated.
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Old 06-13-2006, 12:54 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally_wgn
Hi Jared, thanks for giving the post a read. I guess I am assuming too much in the exhaust section. Most of the Headers sold are either sold with a Cat delete pipe or with high flow cat pipe that replaces you current cat.

Power gains from just a hi flow cat are little or none based on my research so far. Cat back upgrades give decent gains and the header, hi flow combo gives good gains. The two together are your typical full exhaust upgrade.
It is your thread and your choice what to include/exclude, but you give mention to the Borla style headers, which are owned by more people on this board than the EL options, so it would seem like you would present the possibility of HF cat sections as well, since, as you said, hi flow combos in line with headers/cat back give the best gains.

.02

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