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Old 07-29-2006, 04:15 PM   #101
04spec-v
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excellent thread with a ton of useful information that will help alot of new subaru owners.
-hatchbuilder go whine in someone else's thread and stop calling people out...you're wasting everyone's time
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:43 PM   #102
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sorry, I hate BS.
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:43 PM   #103
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hey i'm not claiming anything i'm claiming what the dyno read consistantly as the same numbers over and over.

what they did in my car is their business they just did what they did and what software they use they used. they only ran the car and ran logs the pp6 was tuned by me.

Blaine B that just posted is actually the owner of the dyno or like i said u can directly ask pdx as they saw it face to face.

But like I said if you doubtful give pdx a call they know EXACTLY who i am just tell them vincent from the canada meet and ask for owen of jarrad who was here and they'll let u know. If you can't believe it and you think its BS i'm GIVING you the resources to confirm its authenticity.
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Old 07-29-2006, 07:40 PM   #104
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I can vouch as well.

The dyno was operated for 3 days with no 'adjustments' for anyone and similar atmospheric conditions throughout the weekend.

Generally, Jarrad drove the cars. It was a Mustang dyno.

The stock STi did 240hp and 227tq. (25% driveline loss of hp)

My ProTuned TD04 WRX (basically stage 2) did 229hp and and 235tq.
COBB's own Mustang dyno put down 225hp 223tq. I put down a bit more than COBB's car probably due to my ProTune and a few extra parts (P&P'd headers & TB, turbo inlet etc.) It was a very hot weekend or we all would have made a bit more power.

So...I'd say that the dyno was accurate, predictable, and properly run.

Whatever Vincent's dyno sheet shows...it's the truth. I know nothing about RSs but I CAN say that his dyno sheet is 100% real.
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:26 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
sorry, I hate BS.
Well, you're throwing more of it into this thread than the person you're accusing. You keep making statements about what an RS dynos, and how his car couldn't possibly be making 50hp over stock. Yet you have no idea what a stock RS would put down on the dyno his results came from, so that's a stupid statement to make.

But, I guess with your vast dyno experience (the dozens of threads you've posted about the dyno tuning you've done, stuff like that) we should just believe you're right and we should all accuse vincent of doctoring his graph.

Pat
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Old 07-30-2006, 04:32 PM   #106
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Don't brawl in this thread. This is one of the few that has the makings of being a killer tech thread, and with all the bickering, it's becoming diluted. Work out your differences in PM, and let's keep this thread worth reading.
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Old 07-30-2006, 05:13 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
yeah, and that is reading a bit low too by about 10whp. Most STis dyno at about 250-260. So to have a low reading dyno and then read the factory BHP at the wheels isn't right.
I think it's pretty accurate, 75,000 km on the car and it was extremely hot that day by our Alberta standards. 39 degrees celsius I believe with 30-40% relative humidity. 20% drivetrain loss on a stock vehicle seems reasonable as well.
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Old 07-30-2006, 11:14 PM   #108
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Thanks guys for trying to keep this an informational thread, please take the benchracing to Proven Power or OT where they actually enjoy this kind of stuff.

Greg
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:18 PM   #109
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Sorry, I have been away from the forum for a while.
Here is some simple math to prove my points. 2.5 RS BHP= 165. So let's just say that we have a 30% drivetrain loss, that means that an RS actually has about 115whp (165 x .70= 115) which according to most dynos I have seen is being generous by about 10whp. Ok, so for an RS to make 165 at the wheels you have to make an additional 50whp. I don't care what kind of intake, tuning and exhaust you have you are not going to make 50whp. The exact same mods WITH Cobb cams on the Subiesport RS only got the car to 134whp which is about 20whp over stock, which on a NA car are HUGE gains. And those gains are mostly due to the cams.
Now let's say that you only have about 20% (165 x .80= 132) drivetrain loss which is about 20whp more to the wheels, you still have a huge amount of power to make back to get to 160-165whp. (the Subiesport car with I/H/E only made 113whp).
This just reminds me of the kids with Honda Civic DXs who would think that just becuase their intake was advertised at 10whp and the headers 15whp and the exhuast another 10whp that they actually had 35 more horse, which just is not the case. The bottom line is, no one has been able to say "Yes, intake, header and exhaust, will make 50whp. Does anyone actually think that?
Secondly, we can't see a baseline pull so we have no way of knowing what this car is acually making as far as power goes. Dyno numbers are meaningless without a relation on which to compare. Saying a stock STi reads X on this dyno is meaningless. An STi is a different car with different gearing, weight ect. it bears to relation to your RS or how much power it is making. I bet in the best of worlds an RS with I/H/E and some tuning is making at MOST 10whp over stock.
Go back to the first page of this thread and read the initial post.

To get an RS to 160whp you need internals and headwork and cams which is what is initially stated.
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Old 08-06-2006, 06:15 PM   #110
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Rally_wgn this was on rs25 posted by rallitek with there full exhaust. Car was a 2001.
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:56 PM   #111
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12hp and 7lb/ft. About what you can expect from mild mods. Again, Rally_wgn, in the begining of this post is talking about serious mods. Since there is a baseline graph we can tell where he is starting and where he is finishing. The overall number is meaningless. It does not really matter if the dyno read 300whp to start and then 312whp after, what we are after is the difference. That particular dyno reads a little high IMO, but that does not matter. It seems to be consistent. I would be very happy with those gains for an exhuast system on an NA car.
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:58 PM   #112
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any info on the mods for this car cueball?

hatchbuilder, thank you for your prespective, unfortuantly, like the rest of us most of the numbers in your "simple math" are purely speculative so you maybe right on the money or your argument may be just as wrong as the one your rebutting. As you pointed out, without a base line on this particular car the dyno is for entertainment purposes only.

The only way ppl seem to be satisfied is if the person baselines on the dyno and track and then follows up with subsequent dynos and track runs with full video documentation and then certification for the Board for the Approval of Horsepower / Torque Satistics. Its too bad most of us dont do all of this before modding.

Frankly I think the strip provides the best indicator of an engines power, because it take into account factors of weight, gearing, wheel horsepower. If I can get a RS or GF6 to go as fast as a stock WRX then I will be happy. At that point handling is the equalizing factor on the track (real circuit not some silly 1/4 strip) and driver skill.

I provided this thread for those of us who are interested in getting more power out of the car they have. As I have stated before if you want 300+ hp at the wheels the Sti or WRX swap are the way to go. But I have seen a well modded and tuned NA 2.5 provide a lot of fun to the user without having to sell the car and buy a $15,000 to $20k WRX. And thats is all I'm trying to facilitate.

Greg
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:22 PM   #113
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It was there full exhaust system, their headers, cat delete, and catback.
http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49685 heres the thread.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:11 PM   #114
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Rally_wgn. I agree 100% with you. As I keep trying to point folks back to your original post. However, there seemed to be some funny stuff going on with the "other" poster and his power claims which were being taken as "good tech" which seems to me just silly. A well sorted 2.5RS with a solid street motor that is well thought out I think would be supierior to a WRX with just suspension mods. Having driven a well-sorted 2.5rs with a true 50whp over stock, I can say that it's a hoot, especially around 7000rpm.
The simple math I posted is merely to illustrate that to expect that much power from simple bolt-ons is perposterous. You just cannot get that much power from bolt-ons on a modern NA car.
Wgn, keep on the track you are and I think you will be very happy with the car in the end. Just don't expect your girl to like it.
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:23 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
However, there seemed to be some funny stuff going on with the "other" poster and his power claims which were being taken as "good tech" which seems to me just silly.
When you provide any actual proof that what he stated isn't possible, then I'll believe. All that you've done so far is throw out meaningless, speculative numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
So let's just say that we have a 30% drivetrain loss, that means that an RS actually has about 115whp (165 x .70= 115) which according to most dynos I have seen is being generous by about 10whp.
Sweet, because my car dyno'd at 168whp, so by your math I've got 60+ hp over stock! Man, I'm making more power than a stock WRX! Too bad my 1/4 ETs and trap speeds don't support that bit of magical math.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
Having driven a well-sorted 2.5rs with a true 50whp over stock, I can say that it's a hoot, especially around 7000rpm.
Rather than enlightening us with more of your simple math, how 'bout you tell us about this car with a true 50whp over stock. What's it got done to it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
You just cannot get that much power from bolt-ons on a modern NA car.
Tell that to the LT1/LS1/LS4/LS6/LS7 guys who are getting more than that with just cams and long tube headers - no head work, no intake work, no ECU tweaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
Secondly, we can't see a baseline pull so we have no way of knowing what this car is acually making as far as power goes. Dyno numbers are meaningless without a relation on which to compare.
Yet you keep providing "proof" that his dyno results were wrong by giving examples of other cars on other dynos. You're defeating your own argument in the same post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchbuilder
I bet in the best of worlds an RS with I/H/E and some tuning is making at MOST 10whp over stock.
And you'd lose that bet in a heartbeat. With header and exhaust alone I made a DYNO PROVEN, ON THE SAME DAY, ON THE SAME DYNO 14whp at the peak and nearly 18whp at redline. Adding an intake and S-AFC picked up another 10whp or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally_wgn
Thanks guys for trying to keep this an informational thread, please take the benchracing to Proven Power or OT where they actually enjoy this kind of stuff.
I'll be happy to comply with your request, Greg, when hatchbuilder brings some actual technical information to this thread. I don't think it's "benchracing" to counter his imaginary, misguided math with some actual numbers.

Pat
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:00 AM   #116
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OK Pat challenge taken.
Your 168hp. What did you dyno stock? Can you answer that simple question? Because you will note that what I said WAS significant. We need to see gains over baseline pulls. All your numbers indicate are a high-reading dyno. Are you implying that you have a stock 168whp? Are these numbers corrected by the dyno to read what the theoretical brake hosepower figures are (which is what I am going to assume) or are they wheel?

My simple math was designed to prove a point that whatever number the dyno spits out at the end of the day only matters in relation to the number it spat out at the begining of the day. Savvy? Dynomometers are not inherently precise machines, they can be altered and are highly suspeceptible to operator error. You do not set up a dyno the same way for an STi than for an RS etc.

We are talking Subarus here, not Camaros or Vettes, different animal altogether. Please don't pull out that BS red-herring of well my LS1 got 50hp with just headers. Great for you and your LS1, we are talking 2.5 NA subarus here. This point shall be disregarded. I should have said a "modern fuel injected NA Subaru" or Just 2.5RS. My bad.

Your statment about making 14whp peak with exhaust and header and 18whp at redline does not make sense. Are you saying the entire graph shifted up and to the right? You made more power everywhere? Also, I bet the addition of tuning is what made the 10hp, not the intake but that is neither here nor there. So you made 24 peak whp with intake, header exhuast and Tuning. That sounds about right. Where is your argument? You made a bit more than I postulated speaking in GENERAL terms.

Again you miss the point and have actually made my point: You made 24whp with I/H/E and tuning. You claim 168whp (which I will assume is your end number) which means your stock baseline is 144hp.
So lets say that your dyno is actually trying to calculate bhp. that would mean that 144/168=~87 which is a 13% drivetrain loss which puts us at about 125whp which is just about right, and it falls comfortably into a 5% margin of error for a not so precise machine since you can't really know until you take the motor out and put it on an engine dyno. Which none of us has.

Math owns you.

As for my own experiences with this motor. They are my own and I don't feel the need to tell you all about it until you can really tell me how I am SO completely wrong.
I have an RS, I built it to a certain level of modification beyond bolt-ons. I can look at my begining basline and my end point and see the difference that is the key.
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Old 08-07-2006, 04:09 AM   #117
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Hatch, here's some advice...be sure you know what you're talking about before you go around talking a bunch of crap. You are making way to many asumptions about peoples builds. You have done nothing but put out made up numbers. You have no concrete evidence for anything you are claiming. You better watch yourself before the N/A gurus come in here and make you look like a fool. I've seen it happen many times.
Quote:
As for my own experiences with this motor. They are my own and I don't feel the need to tell you all about it until you can really tell me how I am SO completely wrong.
I have an RS, I built it to a certain level of modification beyond bolt-ons. I can look at my begining basline and my end point and see the difference that is the key.
You talk a big game. Ever hear the phrase put up or shutup. I'm not doubting you have work done to your RS, but their are two kinds of people in the auto world; those who talk the talk, and those who walk the walk. Either put up all your dyno numbers to prove your point or shut up. If you're not willing to share your build and dyno numbers with us, then I can assume two things; one is that you don't have **** done to your car...two is that the parts on your car are hot, and you don't want people to know you have stolen parts...prove me wrong and post up your mod list, dyno plots, and pics to prove the car is yours. I'm not asking anymore of you than you're asking of everyone else.

Oh, and Pat's car has way more than just a ful exhaust, intake and some tuning...Pat is running cams and if I'm correct he has headwork done, so 168whp with tuniing is not beyond beleif...I would take 35-40whp over stock anyday. That would make for one fun RS. Hell I would take a 230chp RS over any swapped RS anyday of the week.

Last edited by X4 SRT; 08-07-2006 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 08-07-2006, 08:25 AM   #118
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I'd hate to see such a great, informational thread get locked for foolery.

Cool it, guys.

=S2=
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:21 AM   #119
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Hatchbuilder you have made your point, there is not enuf data on the build in question to make any real conclusions. Please lets not argue anymore on this. I would suggest you make a new thread and reference the post you object too. Thanks for your cooperation.
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Old 08-07-2006, 11:44 AM   #120
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great argument in a tech post guys, really helpful, I learned a lot.

For future readers of this post, why don't you guys delete your useless argument posts.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:19 PM   #121
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this thread was awesome until the last page and a half. i hope this can get back on track. why is it everytime someone has really usefull info and posts it, there always seems to be a couple keyboard jockeys that screw it up. oh well, thats nabisco for ya.

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Old 10-01-2006, 12:52 AM   #122
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Any more information on N/A builds lately? Anyone try the new 3.0? I realize there are huge issues with the immobilizer.
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Old 10-01-2006, 07:32 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort View Post
Any more information on N/A builds lately? Anyone try the new 3.0? I realize there are huge issues with the immobilizer.
The only person that seems to really be making a splah in the N/A world at this time is Ryan from Subiesport. I'm sure everyone in here is following it closely.

The zth car has a nice build from what I've heard, I haven't read the article yet. Full exhaust, head work, high comp pistons, and the very first AP for an RS. Numbers from what I've heard put the car in the 230chp range. Right off the bat the numbers sound a little low to me, but again, I haven't read the latest article, or really asked in detail what is up with the car. Ryan says the car can rev to 8k. That would be interesting...man I need to get my hands on the latest subiesport. I want to read about this car.

Other than that zzyzx is the king when it comes to N/A builds. 300chp from an ej251 with lots of work. The list of parts doesn't look that bad. There are a few things they did, that they aren't telling people, but I guess that is understandable since they put in all the time and money.

I'm in the mind set that for a daily driven car, 300chp is out of reach. However I don't see a problem in getting somewhere between 260chp and 280chp. Larger fuel pump, WRX injectors, agressive cam, head work, 11:1 pistions, 91, maybe a 91 100 octane mix, 2 1/2 inch exhaust from header back, ITB's or a manifold that has really good air flow, and a good tune, and I thik you will be there or darn close. Just if I had the money. Here's to dreaming...
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Old 10-01-2006, 10:21 AM   #124
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The part holding the ZtH car back is the cam, as the latest article stated. They can run to 8k, but because of the cam, power drops off a little past 6k. It's designed to get the most out of the stock rev limit and improve the powerband closer to it, but past it, it's just not getting it done.

And quite frankly, I can't wait to see what kind of solution they come up with.
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Old 10-01-2006, 10:59 AM   #125
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Trick of it is, even with cams designed to run within the stock redline, the AP allows the engine to make as much power at 8000 RPM as it did at 6200 RPM before tuning. There's still plenty to play with up there.

The question that stands is... Will enough people want to purchase an AP and cams that will run to 8000 RPM? COBB has to decide whether to make those high-breathin' cams.
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