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Old 06-17-2006, 09:39 AM   #26
Tea cups
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rootus
Their software modifies the handshaking protocol so only Ecutek software can reflash it. So you can get as many Ecutek reflashes as you want, you just can't get one from anyone else. And you can never entirely remove the Ecutek software and go back to bone stock.
What I meant was, that if there is a way for Ecutek to read and reflash, then there might be a way for open source tuning to overcome this limitation.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rootus
Maybe EcuTek is a NASIOC vendor?

No, that can't be true, then they would have just deleted the thread and banned you...
It was my first thought....

For all of you guys who doubt what I've said... if you have an 06...

Go get Ecutek... Prove me wrong
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups
What I meant was, that if there is a way for Ecutek to read and reflash, then there might be a way for open source tuning to overcome this limitation.
Actually, if the OpenECU guys work out what they've done, they can VERY easily reverse it, if what I was told is correct.

Its really odd how little it will acheive, and how much irritation it could cause customers.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogdor
Heh, how long ago were we all bashing poor Cobb for their "vaporware" AP and singing the HOSANNAHS for EcuTEK?
thats what i was thinking the entire time while reading this thread.

i still prefer ecutek, mostly because no one anywhere near me does protuner, but also because i hated the original accessport and waiting for cobb get their s**t together. i have what i need from ecutek, so im happy.

i do think this is some tricky crap though. ecutek does seem to be taking the easy way out, when it comes to keeping customers. when was the last time they produced something, or made an upgrade?
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Old 06-17-2006, 12:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAX
when was the last time they produced something, or made an upgrade?
they jus came out w/a cai. looks bling but it also looks like it's 99.99% made by AEM.
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Old 06-17-2006, 12:37 PM   #31
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I know Ecutek changes the "Calid" a little bit to identify it as their own, I wonder if this is what tripped up the AP and the dealers SSM system.

If they didn't recognise the Calid then maybe those systems don't allow for reflashing as a safety precaution.

If it is true that the comm's protocol is stored in a rewriteable section in the rom then that is great news for Openecu, maybe we can up the data rate to make logging, flashing etc. faster.

If it is the Calid then it won't affect Openecu tools in the least, so I can't see them changing that in order to combat Openecu as it would be ineffective.

Actually both changed items would be ineffective against Openecu, so it had to be done in order to monopolise against Cobb.
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Old 06-17-2006, 12:54 PM   #32
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<--- Wants answers dammit (bangs fist on desk)
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Old 06-17-2006, 01:37 PM   #33
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Amazing, but not shocking. I'm a two time ECUTek customer; with my 02 WRX and my 05 STi (both sold). With the 02, it was great. I could just swap ECU's when it came time to sell. The STi was another story. I went round and round with ECUTek asking how I could sell the license they sold me as I was getting rid of the car. Bottom line from them was sorry, you're SOL. They also had me going with the promise of map switching in the STi. Never happened. I would never buy another product from them again. This only confirms my decision. With the AP and OpenECU as options, why would you even consider them anymore?

I know in the EVO community, ECUFlash (OpenECU) is pretty much putting the other flashing companies out of business. With a download and a $80 cable, I now have 95% of the flashing capability of ECUTek in my own hands. My ECU was flashed by a well recognized tuner using the OpenECU software and it performs flawlessly. I think it will eventually take over.
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Old 06-17-2006, 01:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF
I know in the EVO community, ECUFlash (OpenECU) is pretty much putting the other flashing companies out of business. With a download and a $80 cable, I now have 95% of the flashing capability of ECUTek in my own hands. My ECU was flashed by a well recognized tuner using the OpenECU software and it performs flawlessly. I think it will eventually take over.
its such an easy program to use too. i know very little of tuning but i understood everything going on in ecuExplorer. Anyone with the knowledge of how to tune a car can do it with ease. Im surprised more tuners dont offer this as a cheaper method, they still get the money for tuning, but dont have to worry about licencing.
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Old 06-17-2006, 02:52 PM   #35
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whoa.
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
Fortunately PDXTuning has refunded my $$$, and Cobb was able to get on the PCM (at their shop) and re-write it completely to stock.
It's too bad Colbey (cboles) at OpenECU wasn't given first crack at fixing this problem. I think he's relatively local (Seattle?), too.

You can be sure that Cobb hooked up a debugger and dumped the EcuTeK code before they fixed the problem. Perhaps this happened in time for Cobb to incorporate the ability to recognize and rewrite an EcuTeK ROM in the new AccessPort that is due out this year.
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:39 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT]
It's too bad Colbey (cboles) at OpenECU wasn't given first crack at fixing this problem. I think he's relatively local (Seattle?), too.

You can be sure that Cobb hooked up a debugger and dumped the EcuTeK code before they fixed the problem. Perhaps this happened in time for Cobb to incorporate the ability to recognize and rewrite an EcuTeK ROM in the new AccessPort that is due out this year.
oh man, s**t would definitely hit the fan the day the accessport could load ecutek maps.
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Old 06-17-2006, 06:06 PM   #38
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Well, this isn't really new news to me. I have been hearing for months that many EcuTek'd Subaru DBW vehicles are unreadable with the OpenEcu tools. There is a lookup table in the ROM for the seed/key algorithm - my guess is that they changed it. All EcuTek'd EVO ECUs are also locked down by using a non-standard initialization code - so those also can't be reflashed by dealers or other standard tools.

Of course all of these things are circumventable - it just makes for an inconvenience to the user. The really nasty problem is that people who want to stop using EcuTek can't - they are locked in because even the EcuTek dealer can't reflash their ECU back to a true "stock" configuration that is reflashable by other tools. You can't swap the ECU for a stock one easily either, because you need to transfer the immobilizer code to the new ECU.

EcuTek's problem is that they store the flash user license in the ROM, so if you were to flash your ECU back to a true stock image, you would lose your license. Due to their licensing scheme, they are somewhat backed into a corner in terms of dealing with this problem.

It's just yet one more example of heavy handed DRM getting in the way of letting people do what they want with their own property.
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colby
It's just yet one more example of heavy handed DRM getting in the way of letting people do what they want with their own property.
While Im sorta refreshed to hear that you have some understanding of whats going on... (I wish I had known too, and my friends had known, etc...)... I do not agree that this fits in heavy handed DRM.

Heavy handed DRM means over-restricting your rights to enjoy the information that you have licensed. Taking a purchase of a license and then turning it into permission to irreversibly alter ones automobile is irresponsible and does harm... far more than restrictions on your ability to enjoy what you had purchased.

Lets say I had an electrical problem in my car... the daytime running lights for instance. Subaru decides to do a full body control module check. I would have taken the car to Subaru with an un-married stock ECU. With EcuTEK, I would have found out after purchase that this is not an option.

Lets pretend that two years from now they start checksumming ECUs as part of the emmissions process. I cannot pass even if my car is "programmed back to the stock program".

*I* am lucky enough that I came out the other side without an issue (so far)... I sincerely hope that the OpenECU folks learn soon how to bypass and then reverse this alteration.

While I previously had little interest in the OpenECU project... I will now do whatever I can to help eliminate this.

-Chris
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:02 PM   #40
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I don't buy the fact that they did this so people couldn't marry an Accessport. I mean, who would take an ecutek flashed ecu with their expensive license and marry an Accessport, completely erasing the ecutek ROM? Of course, with the openecu tools, you can download and backup your tune and do whatever you want with it. I think this was a direct attack on the open source project. They've seen how the project is coming. It is only a matter of time before realtime tuning is a reality and more and more commercial tuners will use this free tool instead of paying overpriced fees to ecutek. I understand why they did it, but I think, in the end, it is only going to piss off the people buying or considering buying their products, more than the opensource community, who will probably come up with a solution to circumvent in no time.
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Old 06-18-2006, 12:29 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups
I think this was a direct attack on the open source project.
I think we agree. Cobb was (in my opinion) likely only able to work out the issue because the probably worked with EcuTEK to get through it. EcuTEK is not afraid of Cobb. They are afraid of OpenECU. Period.
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:47 PM   #42
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This seems to be so since a collegue of mine have the same problem.
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:53 PM   #43
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I'm still wondering why anyone would go with Ecutek, period. Cobb is a better solution, does more, resellable, and the Openecu stuff does everything Ecutek does cheaper.
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:44 PM   #44
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Sounds like Microsoft, once you install it, no refund. OK, everyone let's all use linux.
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:47 PM   #45
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Except in this case there is no way to uninstall, or install over it. It's like paying $100 for Windows, having it render your $1000 PC inoperable and having no way install another OS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canosardines
Sounds like Microsoft, once you install it, no refund. OK, everyone let's all use linux.
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:04 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
I think we agree. Cobb was (in my opinion) likely only able to work out the issue because the probably worked with EcuTEK to get through it.
This is very unlikely, in my opinion. Cobb was able to flash a new ROM image on the bench the same way they do at the factory and without relying on what was already on the ROM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:18 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colby
Well, this isn't really new news to me. I have been hearing for months that many EcuTek'd Subaru DBW vehicles are unreadable with the OpenEcu tools.
Do you know if this has been happening on just the 06 DBW Subarus or if the 05s are affected as well?
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Old 06-18-2006, 06:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jon [in CT]
This is very unlikely, in my opinion. Cobb was able to flash a new ROM image on the bench the same way they do at the factory and without relying on what was already on the ROM.
Exactly... With certain bench tools there's no need for a bootloader to my understanding. So, if no bootloader is needed then there's not need to do any upload/handshake with the ECU first. Think of it like pulling an EEPROM out and just flashing or erasing it with an EEPROM burner. Programs like that don't care what's on the chip first. As a matter of fact, when a friend of mine did some tuning changes on a Honda the EEPROM was erased in the burner and then flashed with the new tune and then verified. Cobb can do this on the bench from what I gather because they have saved a few ECUs that were botched by the marrying process for some people when the APs first came out with crap ass cables and such, where the flash would stop halfway and render the ECU useless. These people would send in the ECU and AP and Cobb would send it back to them already married or unmarried... depending on what the customer asked them to do.
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:06 PM   #49
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Is there any documentation at all of this problem occurring or not occurring to other people? So far this seems to be the first we've heard of such problems. There's a lot of speculation going around considering only one person has had such an experience. Did Cobb verify that the EcuTek intentionally crippled the cpu's ability to communicate with other programs? Is it possible that this is a one-time error? A bug or a glitch or something? Just throwing the possibility out there...
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:11 PM   #50
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I do not think so, since I have came across it in the Caribbean.

We cannot monitor the ecu or even flash a stock image to tune, since the ecutek dealer flashed it..

I think this behaviour is unacceptable
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