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Old 06-22-2006, 03:38 PM   #176
DMS North America
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Default Clarification

Maybe i should rephrase ( I apologize for not being clear )
If you asked for the full value of your old car in exchange for the new model, you would not get it. But on the other hand, as was previously mentioned, a deprication value is alloted to make the deal happen......

Software does depreciate in value, when the new versions become available, superceeded ones are cleared out of inventory, stores put specials on, and that is the end of the product or version ... You can however buy "upgrades". I have been lucky enough to meet ecutek dealers and represenatives from all across the country, and I am sure that no harm was intended and that they will do everything possible to fix the locked ECU situtation.

I do understand both COBB / ECUTEK wanting to protect their interests, we are the same way. It is not fun when your work and effort that was intended to generate revenue becomes free game on the open market. Inevitable, perhaps, does not make it any more moral though.

As a manufacturer and importer, I take my hat off to PDX and the other vendors here for their effort towards working with the customers and the suppliers. Well done!
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Last edited by DMS North America; 06-22-2006 at 03:39 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:54 PM   #177
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DMS North America, I'm not really arguing the validity of offering a free or discounted update or not offering one at all. That is a business decision, not a requirement, and EcuTek is free to do whatever they want. However, I still think you are confusing depreciation with obsolescence. A 6 year old piece of software will run just as good today as it did 6 years ago. There is no value removed from the license or software by operating it. By providing a new piece of software, you are not suddenly depreciating that software, you are obsoleting it. Even obsolete stuff can retain it's value if the new product is more expensive than the last. But I think we are stretching the analogy here. Software is not like physical equipment, hence the entire debate in the thread.
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:27 PM   #178
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^^^ Not only that, but he's missing the big obvious point there. There's nothing new about EcuTek's software even with this new release "package". They haven't changed squat to the software nor have they introduced any new capabilities. All they have simply done is moved the flashing "capability" to the end user instead of just limiting it at the tuner/partner level. This is not a software revision or update... it's a business plan change made to appease the public due to Cobb's and OpenECU's current capabilities. EcuTek is currently 3rd in the capability running and 2nd in the "most used" running with Cobb being first in both and OpenECU respectively placed in the other groupings.
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Old 06-23-2006, 01:46 AM   #179
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May I ask a stupid question (seeing as a good chunk of what has been posted sounds like gibberish to me)?

I have two Ecutek'd cars, and I want to the Ecuteks off both of my cars completely. It's not that I don't like the product, but I don't like the fact that my performance shop can't tune the cars. So, my shop informed me of this whole mess, and I started reading.


Here's my question:

What expectation of 'copyright' or protection does a tuner have? In a sense, tuners are chefs.. perhaps even iron chefs. They use the same ingredients (timing, a/f, boost.. etc), with the only differences being amounts and combinations. I have never heard of cooks protecting their dishes, which is why you can find the same recipes in numerous publications. How is tuning different?

Don't take this to mean that I am dinegrating tuners in any way. I'm not. But using tuners as an excuse for handcuffing customers is a little much to me. I really think that this is a case of a company trying to protect THEIR OWN work and going too far.

I'd keep my Ecutek if I could choose who tuned it. But I don't have that luxury. So I want it off. When is that going to be possible? I've heard a few days, but I haven't seen it happen.
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Old 06-23-2006, 04:07 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_Gold
May I ask a stupid question (seeing as a good chunk of what has been posted sounds like gibberish to me)?

I have two Ecutek'd cars, and I want to the Ecuteks off both of my cars completely. It's not that I don't like the product, but I don't like the fact that my performance shop can't tune the cars. So, my shop informed me of this whole mess, and I started reading.


Here's my question:

What expectation of 'copyright' or protection does a tuner have? In a sense, tuners are chefs.. perhaps even iron chefs. They use the same ingredients (timing, a/f, boost.. etc), with the only differences being amounts and combinations. I have never heard of cooks protecting their dishes, which is why you can find the same recipes in numerous publications. How is tuning different?

Don't take this to mean that I am dinegrating tuners in any way. I'm not. But using tuners as an excuse for handcuffing customers is a little much to me. I really think that this is a case of a company trying to protect THEIR OWN work and going too far.

I'd keep my Ecutek if I could choose who tuned it. But I don't have that luxury. So I want it off. When is that going to be possible? I've heard a few days, but I haven't seen it happen.
IMO, after determining the locked/unlocked condition of your ECU(s), if 'locked' buy a replacement ECU(s) and sell the current one(s) (with their license) for what the market will bear....and done.

I never did like the whole idea of the ecutek, anyway.
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Old 06-23-2006, 04:25 AM   #181
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I always thought the ecutek was a ripoff, 1k just to flash your car? then paying dyno and tuner time on top of that? thats nuts.
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:43 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97whitesi
I always thought the ecutek was a ripoff, 1k just to flash your car? then paying dyno and tuner time on top of that? thats nuts.
WTH do you get 1k? It's $595... it's been that amount since a couple years back as far as I know. Even the LGT ones are only $749. You must not shop arround. And until recently (this BS thread) EcuTek pretty much didn't have any faults as far as I'm concerned. For those of us that wanted a "set it and forget it" solution this worked best.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:34 PM   #183
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eh, i've always thought it was overpriced, and that you didn't get that much compared to the AP
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:01 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colby
Thanks for addressing this. If tuners want to protect their IP, they should be able to do so. My only complaint here was the side effect of permanently locking customer's hardware. What you are proposing is probably the best comprimise solution.

I don't know how many times I can repeat this, but the purpose of the OpenECU project is not to enable people to copy other tuners/companies maps - it is to allow people to tune (or have others tune) their own cars without limitation or obfuscation.
God bless you Colby...OpenECU has allowed users to make slight mods to their ECU.

Last edited by modvp; 06-24-2006 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 06-24-2006, 09:54 PM   #185
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subscribing
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:27 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle
We always knew that the license could not be recovered, and many customers sold their ECU as a way to recover some license cost.
I have a question about this. In the computer world, if you buy a License, you have a right to a copy (or x amount of copies) based on the license. You never buy software, you only by a license. Are you saying in this case, if I buy a license, flash my ECU with it, then want to remove the software from said ECU and transfer the license I bought, to another ECU, I can't? The License is gone?

Wouldn't that be like if you bought Windows, but then your machine crached, you couldn't reload Windows from your install disks, you'd have to go buy another copy of Windows?

If that's the case, this shouldn't be called a License, but Labor, or even a Ticket (like Admission).
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Old 06-25-2006, 12:26 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
I have a question about this. In the computer world, if you buy a License, you have a right to a copy (or x amount of copies) based on the license. You never buy software, you only by a license. Are you saying in this case, if I buy a license, flash my ECU with it, then want to remove the software from said ECU and transfer the license I bought, to another ECU, I can't? The License is gone?

Wouldn't that be like if you bought Windows, but then your machine crached, you couldn't reload Windows from your install disks, you'd have to go buy another copy of Windows?

If that's the case, this shouldn't be called a License, but Labor, or even a Ticket (like Admission).
That's one way to put it...
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Old 06-25-2006, 10:58 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle
This is somewhat unfair to us (PDX). We, with the help of Rainmaker, discovered this problem. We talked to EcuTek, and they are working on a solution that would allow us to divorce from the ecu. I do not know how this would work with existing PCMs, but I suspect it would be a pretty easy process.
I agree. I was not being clear actually. It is obvious to me that you guys have done everything you could to help, and RainMaker is lucky this problem happened at your shop. I guess what I was trying to get at was the future. Can a shop continue to use Ecutek products in good conscience, given that they have enganged in sneaky underhanded behavior? We know that Ecutek does not inform their dealers about drastic changes in their software. No shop can be sure of exactly what they are putting on their customers' cars.

On the other hand, I'm sure that Ecutek is a large portion of business for a shop, and it might be essential to keep that business....those are realities of life and while it's nice to live on principle, principles do not pay the bills.

I guess if I were a shop, I would demand a public apology from Ecutek for putting me in a ****ty position, and leave it at that.

Quote:
As Jarrad said many times, once we see some software that can address this, we will of course be sure to tell you. I realize some of you are unhappy with this development, but please don't shoot the messenger.
I did not mean to shoot the messenger, I certainly did not mean to come off that way. As I said above, I think everything so far has been top notch....it's just if they do something else like this, we can't all say we did not know Ecutek shows disregard for their customers' property. Now we know.
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Old 06-26-2006, 05:34 PM   #189
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so basically i am confused, i have an 04 sti with ecutek and i want to switch to accessport, is this possible, i have an appointment with an ecutek dealer to flash back to stock, the question is will i the be able to use the accessport i just purchased?!?!?!?
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Old 06-26-2006, 05:41 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSLOWSTi
so basically i am confused, i have an 04 sti with ecutek and i want to switch to accessport, is this possible, i have an appointment with an ecutek dealer to flash back to stock, the question is will i the be able to use the accessport i just purchased?!?!?!?
For the time being i would not flash it back to stock but instead would first try to overwrite it, as is, with the COBB AP.

Tim - PDXT
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Old 06-26-2006, 06:58 PM   #191
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Wow!!!!
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:06 AM   #192
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As an ECUTek dealer, I have great interest in this thread. I feel I do a good job and am very happy with the capabilities of the ECUTek system. I look forward to the new hardware and support for my customers. I can't wait to make some true flex fuel vehicles using E100 and the like. I am sorry that so many of you are angry with ECUTek and Cobb for trying to protect the hard work of people like me. I am one of the requestees of this new protection.

Every customer I have ever had realized what they are get for their money. A great tune in a safe environment using state of the art equipment.We charge $650 for ECUTek including a dyno tune right now and so far everyone is happy.

Even a prolific poster in this very thread came to me for a retune because he thought his advance multiplier should always be pegged at 16. I am sure he now has the map and I am more than okay with it. In fact his ECU was just sold for a nice recoup of some of the cost of the tune. I am happy for him and hope he learns about the Subaru timing strategy and makes his own decisions on how to tune it. I am also happy for the rest of the OpenECU folks. I think this is great for those of you who understand how to tune. But I must say that I remember when other (unnamed)piggybacks gave end users the ability to do what they wished and many a motor popped. Also keep in mind that road tuning can have legal and fatal consequences. It is still important to get tuned well on a dyno and the rates are the same from our end no matter what management one decides upon.

Ultimately, I must admit that there are maps I have worked very hard upon and would be sad if they were made public.

One poster a few pages ago stated that a chef has no right to a dish once it is served. That is probably the best example I have seen so far. A great meal is great and the customer can enjoy the heck out of it. But if you think that after a few bites of your fois gras, you can storm into the kitchen and demand the exact recipee because you paid for a good meal, you are very wrong. I have owned a restaurant for over 15 years (and counting) and have seen many cooks who will grab their sharpest steel at the suggestion that they disclose a secret recipee, at best, they will give the wrong recipee to an insistent customer. Thanks for the analogy.

This chef is making up new recipees all the time, and happy that they are mine all mine.

I also think that customer service plays into this equation and I promise to take care of all my tunes whether done on COBB, ECUTEK, or OpenECU.

Thanks to Trey and David for opening the door for me to make both system's customers even happier.
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Old 06-27-2006, 01:29 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX Harvey
Even a prolific poster in this very thread came to me for a retune because he thought his advance multiplier should always be pegged at 16. I am sure he now has the map and I am more than okay with it. In fact his ECU was just sold for a nice recoup of some of the cost of the tune. I am happy for him and hope he learns about the Subaru timing strategy and makes his own decisions on how to tune it.
Well, I guess you're talking about me. I haven't sold my ECU yet, though.

My IAM was dropping down to the point where boost control was disabled (below 6) with the Cobb map and wasn't much better with a Vishnu off-the-shelf map. My car just didn't seem to like a lot of timing. Harvey did a great job, starting with a stock map, to custom tune and my car made more power than Vishnu with a lot less timing. That was over a year ago, when I just started learning about logging (and hence my confusion about IAM and whether it should be pegged at 16 all the time).

Since then, I got into the open source project and learned a whole lot more about tuning. I started modifying my tune on an extra ECU and it is to the point that none of the values even resemble the original custom tune, save for a few cells of pulled timing on the base timing and ignition correction maps. Harvey's custom tune was pretty conservative because of my detonation problems, so it was pretty close to stock (fuel maps 100% stock, only boost/wastegate at 76%+ throttle changed, very few changes to timing). I've since modified the entire boost/wastegate tables at every throttle/rpm cell as well as closed loop parameters. I'm also slowly modifying my timing. I also have a bigger IC and P&P turbo as new mods.

I understand why the tuners wouldn't want their hard work posted all of the web. I will never post up Harvey's work or any other tuner's work without their permission. Since my detonation problem is pretty much solved (may have been a case of false knock), I've outgrown my original tune and I am having fun making changes myself. I'd like to get a retune on a dyno with my new mods, and then use the open source tools to make changes as needed.

I just can't see having to go back to tuner after you've spent over $600 on an Ecutek dyno tune, and pay more cash to make some additional, small changes. If I know Harvey, he would probably make the small changes for free, but you can't say that for all tuners. I think that Ecutek and Cobb are going to have to rethink their strategy on the custom tune, as I've already heard of commercial tuners using the open source tools to dyno tune cars. Once realtime tuning is added, then even more commercial tuners will start using it, only charging for the dyno tune time, which will end up being less than half the total cost of a Ecutek/Cobb solution. And the end-user will be able to edit the tune, unlike the current Ecutek block and Protuner's file format that doesn't allow ST to edit it.
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:41 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Tea cups
Since then, I got into the open source project and learned a whole lot more about tuning. I started modifying my tune on an extra ECU and it is to the point that none of the values even resemble the original custom tune, save for a few cells of pulled timing on the base timing and ignition correction maps. Harvey's custom tune was pretty conservative because of my detonation problems, so it was pretty close to stock (fuel maps 100% stock, only boost/wastegate at 76%+ throttle changed, very few changes to timing). I've since modified the entire boost/wastegate tables at every throttle/rpm cell as well as closed loop parameters. I'm also slowly modifying my timing.
Sounds to me like you're having more success at making power with safety then a "professional tune" got you by having Open capabilities... I guess in this case you took that "secret recipe" and changed it to be even better then what the "master cook" put together.

One major incorrectness to what Harvey stated about chefs... some of them don't mind giving out their recipes... and if one was inclined to do so and allow the end user to change things they wouldn't be able to follow this track with the current restrictions put in place.

I'm all for safeguarding your work, but safeguarding your work at the expense of the customer for idealistic "job security" is silly and unetical in my book. Cobb and EcuTek should have implemented a CHECKSUM routine into the ECU which would have only allowed their flashes to work with the original ECU. If flashed on another ECU the car simply won't start. Much better "safeguard" implementation... the tuners would have been happy and the end user could still do whatever on their own property.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:05 AM   #195
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well can i get a stock ecu and put it in my car? what would i have to do to do that, that way i could sell the ecu i have now with the ecutek license?
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:59 AM   #196
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You can't swap ecu's on (at least) 05/06 sti. I think those are the only immobilizer locked ecu's at this point. All others you can sell/trade ECU.
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Old 06-27-2006, 10:26 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98
Sounds to me like you're having more success at making power with safety then a "professional tune" got you by having Open capabilities... I guess in this case you took that "secret recipe" and changed it to be even better then what the "master cook" put together.
Well, I wouldn't say that. They did an awesome job working with my tempermental car. I'm not sure what the issue was back then, although I suspect that it was false knock from one of the heatshields, which have since been removed and put back on several times. Or perhaps something else which seems to have resolved itself.

The bottom line is, I would definitely go back to them for retune, but not if my ECU was locked out so that I couldn't make adjustments myself later, which is the current issue with Ecutek's "solution". It also sounds like Cobb will be implementing a similar strategy. I understand the need to protect your work, but I think this is really only an issue with the off-the-shelf maps, as custom tunes are just that - custom to your car and aren't likely to work with another person's car (and possibly even cause damage). If some moron steals a custom tune and tries to run it on his car and blows his motor, then I hardly see how the original tuner could be held responsible. It is like someone hiring a consultant to come up with a plan for their busniness. But the consultant won't allow the CEO or any of the employees to know any specifics of the plan and won't allow any changes to it unless he is paid additional money. Even if the CEO gave the plan to another company, it wouldn't do them much good, as the plan was specific to the unique properties of his business, not someone else's.
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Old 06-27-2006, 10:31 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98
Cobb and EcuTek should have implemented a CHECKSUM routine into the ECU which would have only allowed their flashes to work with the original ECU. If flashed on another ECU the car simply won't start. Much better "safeguard" implementation... the tuners would have been happy and the end user could still do whatever on their own property.
There are logical limitations on what kind of protections are possible. I'm not sure there is any possible way to keep a flash working on just one ECU, besides the existing immobilizer, which to be honest I don't fully understand.

What you suggest is rather irrelevent anyway, because as soon as you can read out the ECU, you can just copy and paste map values. You don't need to have the ability to write the exact ROM, byte for byte, to another physical ECU to copy an ECU. You only need to be able to recognize the map data. Hell, just some screenprints of the data would be enough for someone willing to hand type them back in.

The nature of the data they're trying to protect means any ability to read out the ROM dump would negate most any sort of protection.
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Old 06-27-2006, 10:40 AM   #199
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so does that mean ecutek wont lock your ecu on an 04 then? only an 05 and 06?
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Old 06-27-2006, 10:56 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSLOWSTi
so does that mean ecutek wont lock your ecu on an 04 then? only an 05 and 06?
No, it sounds like Ecutek will lock out any flash, from now on, regardless of year.
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