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Old 06-17-2006, 04:07 PM   #1
WrxWonderWagon
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What Spelluring?

Default 35r guys : hydra or AEM EM

as of the moment i have a UTEC and i cant help but feel like it is outdated
my perrin 35r kit and aqua mist kit are going in with in the week(i hope)

any ideas on what to do?
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:13 PM   #2
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You probably want to post this in the Engine management forum, but once you get there, you'll see a huge thread on these two.

The best answer? Whoever is going to give you the best support. Personally, I'm going with a Hydra BECAUSE of Phil Gabrow.
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:13 PM   #3
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HYDRA. You buy it from Element Tuning and you will get all harwdware required to install, plus an excellent base map for driving around and I think that if they have tuned a setup similar to yours, they will also send to that map with it also. You also get very good tech support, at least thats what Ive heard. I did not buy mine from them so I cannot get tech support from them or anybody. And its cheaper.
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:13 PM   #4
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Find what your local tuner likes to work with, and go from there....
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:14 PM   #5
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+1 for Hydra. It's a nice EMS and as stated above, Phil is the man. Buy it through him and you get an awesome base map, newest version, and his support (which is awesome)

-Dan
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:16 PM   #6
El Gato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigga
Find what your local tuner likes to work with, and go from there....
Actually this makes more sense from experience. Some tuners when trying new things, you end up paying for their R&D.

The UTEC should be good enough for now though. Big Valley reached 10 secs with this ECU.

The Hydra is very easy to use though, I am no professional and learned how to use it. The interface is very good.
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:18 PM   #7
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Keep in mind that if you plan on getting water injection, Phil is working on a kit RIGHT NOW that is controlled by the Hydra. If you go the route of Hydra, I'd look into this.
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:23 PM   #8
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phill will be the tuner so i guess im going with the hydra
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrxWonderWagon
phill will be the tuner so i guess im going with the hydra

No brainer then. Looks like you got your answer before a moderator moved the thread. I'm sure you'll love it. The install for mine is wrapping up as we speak.
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:09 PM   #10
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I would give you more specific reasons but unfortunately I am waiting for a replacement unit since my got destroyed in shipping............ Still waiting for the replacement....................................... .........................

-Matt

Last edited by ShaggyGT; 06-18-2006 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:31 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyGT
Hydra!!! I would give you more specific reasons but unfortunately I am waiting for a replacement unit since my got destroyed in shipping............ Still waiting for the replacement....................................... .........................

-Matt
I've heard HYDRA EMS are having problems with certain chips (hardware) that for some reason they have been unable to obtain or have obtained at limited quantities and thus the low supply of units. I know like 6 people that have ordered them two months ago and they still say they are in back order.
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:42 AM   #12
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.........................

Last edited by ShaggyGT; 06-18-2006 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 01:52 PM   #13
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AEM will not work with drive by wire so for Sti's definately go for the Hydra but you can not just walk in and buy one. Waiting list always in effect. AEM will work but will not control drive by wire throttle so idle control is not available. That is crucial when dealing with big turbos and cams. We also sell the ECU's with preinstalled maps and offer full support for the units. They work fantastic and have had nothing but great luck with them.
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Old 06-18-2006, 02:00 PM   #14
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There is no waiting list. They are waiting for MAP sensors.

Last edited by ShaggyGT; 06-18-2006 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:07 PM   #15
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Does AEM plan on releasing an update fot the dbw? It seems like a well proven EM and it gives us another option to hydra
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:09 PM   #16
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Did you talk to Phil directly about this? Pretty harsh accusations. I've waited a while for mine too, but I've been kept in the loop everytime there was issues. I bought mine at World One, and actually saw my unit, but there was a problem with it and all the others they had(can't remember if it was the map sensor). Garret cordially explained it to me, I waited for the new one, and now I'm up and running as of yesterday.

I'm not familiar with JSC Speed. However, it sounds like the problem is through them and not Element or HydraEMS Direct. Whoever TOOK the money is responsible. Where it was lost along the way is their responsibility if they're the ones who charged you.

Sorry to hear about that. I had my UTEC pre-sold, so it was frustrating explaining to the buyer why he's been waiting so long. Luckily, he's been super cool. I'm sure he'll be happy to hear from me Monday that my Hydra's in, and the UTEC is ready for him.

BTW, why didn't you send the broken Hydra to JSC Speed for an exchange?

Last edited by keaniegenie; 06-20-2006 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gato
I've heard HYDRA EMS are having problems with certain chips (hardware) that for some reason they have been unable to obtain or have obtained at limited quantities and thus the low supply of units. I know like 6 people that have ordered them two months ago and they still say they are in back order.
This was the original delay. Then, they shipped out units with a bad part (I think it's the map sensor that Shaggy GT was talking about). I waited a while for my unit. When it finally came, the map sensor was wrong (Hydra EMS's fault), so even though I saw my Hydra at World One and held it in my hands, it wasn't going in my car. 1 week later, it's back, it's fixed, and now in my car.

Was it worth the wait? Yes. I'm a big advocate of Phil Gabrow. Though the experience was frustrating, I felt that Element and World One did everything they could to make it right for me. It's now in, working, and the car is running better than it ever has before.
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Old 06-18-2006, 06:25 PM   #18
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Stay far far away. Phil is a joke. You want to know more? Contact me I will fill you in and can give you a list of others who will confirm everything.

Much better options out there.

Last edited by ShaggyGT; 06-20-2006 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 06:32 PM   #19
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....................

Last edited by ShaggyGT; 06-18-2006 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 06-19-2006, 11:35 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyGT
Not worth it.....
I feel at this point you and Element Tuning should part ways and you should continue using your current EMS system. Since you have made your displeasure public and you feel it isn't worth it let's get you your money back. To all others who may have read what was posted here is my response:

ShaggyGT,

I’m going to CC Hydra EMS and Kyle at JSC so we are all on the same page.

This is your second threat to me about legal action but you have no legal recourse against Element Tuning. Let me remind you that you have not spent any money with Element Tuning. Threatening me has gotten you no where it will continue to get you nowhere. We agreed to replace your unit due to shipping damage and not because of your threats. If you are so completely unhappy and want a refund I will authorize this through the people you have actually spent money with JSC. I will happily refund their purchase with Element Tuning and we can part ways.

“Kind of funny that you say your going to cover a new unit when I just got an e-mail from Hydra saying that you have not paid for a replacement unit. I am tired of being lied to and I will make this all public if need be or you can just do the smart thing and pay them so they can send me a new unit. I will be glad when this is done because you have done nothing but ruin any good things I ever had to say about you.” ShaggyGT

No one has lied to you so there must have been a miscommunication. I have been in contact with your dealer JSC and have communicated to them what is going on. I explained to you in the beginning that they are my customer and I am working with them to resolve your issue. I have done everything in my power to get you a new Hydra through JSC. If they have not communicated the situation I will have a talk with them.

”You also said the hold up has been the map sensors which is complete bull****. They have a MAP sensor for my unit waiting for someone to send them the money.” ShaggyGT

Ever since we had to send your unit back for the Fedex claim, there have been no MAP sensors to build new units. After having to send your unit back for the Fedex claim I specifically asked when I would have more units so we could replace your unit completely instead of a repair. I just talked with Hydra EMS last week and they said it was going to be 7-10 days until we had MAP sensors. I am still in a backorder and have over 40 Hydras on order with Hydra EMS worth more than $70K dollars. This has nothing to do with Hydra getting paid as I never pay for units up front as they are all delivered COD.

Trust me on this Matt, paying $900 for a new unit for you pales in comparison to the revenue generated from those 40 Hydras I do not have. The delay has nothing to do with money. I hope there was a miscommunication and Hydra EMS will come to my rescue on this so you don’t feel I have lied to you because I haven’t. There are people who have been waiting longer than you for their Hydra and they are also upset. I have told every one of them the reason for the backorder is due to the lack of MAP sensors which I understand to be the truth.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
Director of Marketing
Element Tuning
(240)246.0302
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 06-19-2006, 01:07 PM   #21
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Can anyone explain to me why you would buy a Hydra from someone other than Phil directly? I can only believe it is because they are buying directly from the people who would be tuning their car, but that isn't the case here apparently. It really just sounds like Matt had some bad luck, but is letting his unhappiness cloud his logic and reasoning on how to best deal with this problem. Sometimes people want to blame the vendor (which isn't even true in this case IMO since Phil didn't sell the product directly), instead of the circumstance (such as shipping damage) or the product itself.

offset
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Old 06-19-2006, 01:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
I feel at this point you and Element Tuning should part ways and you should continue using your current EMS system. Since you have made your displeasure public and you feel it isn't worth it let's get you your money back. To all others who may have read what was posted here is my response:

ShaggyGT,

I’m going to CC Hydra EMS and Kyle at JSC so we are all on the same page.

This is your second threat to me about legal action but you have no legal recourse against Element Tuning. Let me remind you that you have not spent any money with Element Tuning. Threatening me has gotten you no where it will continue to get you nowhere. We agreed to replace your unit due to shipping damage and not because of your threats. If you are so completely unhappy and want a refund I will authorize this through the people you have actually spent money with JSC. I will happily refund their purchase with Element Tuning and we can part ways.

“Kind of funny that you say your going to cover a new unit when I just got an e-mail from Hydra saying that you have not paid for a replacement unit. I am tired of being lied to and I will make this all public if need be or you can just do the smart thing and pay them so they can send me a new unit. I will be glad when this is done because you have done nothing but ruin any good things I ever had to say about you.” ShaggyGT

No one has lied to you so there must have been a miscommunication. I have been in contact with your dealer JSC and have communicated to them what is going on. I explained to you in the beginning that they are my customer and I am working with them to resolve your issue. I have done everything in my power to get you a new Hydra through JSC. If they have not communicated the situation I will have a talk with them.

”You also said the hold up has been the map sensors which is complete bull****. They have a MAP sensor for my unit waiting for someone to send them the money.” ShaggyGT

Ever since we had to send your unit back for the Fedex claim, there have been no MAP sensors to build new units. After having to send your unit back for the Fedex claim I specifically asked when I would have more units so we could replace your unit completely instead of a repair. I just talked with Hydra EMS last week and they said it was going to be 7-10 days until we had MAP sensors. I am still in a backorder and have over 40 Hydras on order with Hydra EMS worth more than $70K dollars. This has nothing to do with Hydra getting paid as I never pay for units up front as they are all delivered COD.

Trust me on this Matt, paying $900 for a new unit for you pales in comparison to the revenue generated from those 40 Hydras I do not have. The delay has nothing to do with money. I hope there was a miscommunication and Hydra EMS will come to my rescue on this so you don’t feel I have lied to you because I haven’t. There are people who have been waiting longer than you for their Hydra and they are also upset. I have told every one of them the reason for the backorder is due to the lack of MAP sensors which I understand to be the truth.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
Director of Marketing
Element Tuning
(240)246.0302
http://www.elementtuning.com

Here's my take on what I've read so far. Matt buys a unit through JSC Speed, and it's not working. Since it there was a fedex claim, I'll assume he ordered it through JSC Speed instead of through Phil directly because JSC Speed probably offered the best price. It can't be because they had them in stock because you said you've been waiting for it.

If this is the case, Phil is the wholesaler selling to JSC Speed. That makes JSC Speed directly responsible for any issues regarding the Hydra, and they contact Phil directly. Phil was working on directly replacing it to handle the issues, but Matt felt it was necessary to go over the heads of both the retailer and the wholesaler and send it to Hydra EMS directly. Matt gets one person on the phone from Hydra and they tell him a different story, or what appears to be a different story. Now Matt is upset because he felt he was lied to and must work with Hydra to get his original unit fixed.

If Phil was willing to replace the unit, why would you threaten legal action or go to Hydra directly? If Phil explicitely told you both he and JSC Speed will do NOTHING to fix the problem, I can see why you would go over their heads. I too heard similar issues with mine, and I believed and trusted World One and Element, hence why I have my unit and am up and running. If both JSC Speed and Element told you they couldn't help you and that you must go through Hydra directly (which is how some products work too, like my appliances), then it makes sense to talk to Hydra directly. However, if this were the case, they wouldn't have to tell you "lies" about the why it's taking so long. They would just pass you off to Hydra and be done with it.

If you just straight didn't trust the two parties, why did you buy from them? I personally would RATHER deal with the direct retailer I bought the product from rather than the manufacturer. When I found out I had to deal directly with GE about my washer machine breaking, I cringed. Why the hell can I not deal with my retailer on a multi-thousand dollar transaction? In this case, you chose to go through Hydra directly. I know that the part wrong for my Hydra worked fine EXCEPT with the wideband add-on, which defeated the purpose since I wanted the wideband. What if the map sensor you're talking about was the same part I'm talking about? Then someone from Hydra could say, "We've got a ton of them laying around!" and not know they won't work with the wideband. Like I said earlier, I was at World One's shop and held my Hydra in my hands prior to them sending them back to get fixed.

I understand why Matt is upset. Unfortunately, he didn't trust his retailer or the retailer's wholesaler enough to let them fix the problem, and have severed ties with the best Hydra tuner in the country. It's too bad, because I can see how things like this happen. I think all of this wouldn't have happened if Matt did trust the two parties and was slightly more patient. If Matt was getting too impatient, he should've asked for a refund instead of going to Hydra directly. Going over people's heads and publicly threatening legal action against a party during a transaction is never a good idea. The other thing I think is interesting is Phil is directly conversing with Matt about the transaction even though he's the wholesaler. That is a privelage, not a requirement. Typically in business, if the retailer is the direct contact for customer service, they will speak to the wholesaler or manufacturer themselves. Phil was doing Matt a favor by trying to relate the story he heard from Hydra (not Phil's job, JSC's job) and is now being threated legal action against for going the extra mile. Not cool.

I'm currently upset at a small vendor myself, but am waiting for a resolution and for a final decision on the transaction prior to either decide if I'm happy with the transaction and to publicly give my opinion on the vendor. If the vendor fixes everything with flying colors, I'll end up praising them. If they do me wrong and nothing gets fixed, I'll do a vendor review.

Last edited by keaniegenie; 06-19-2006 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 06-19-2006, 02:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offset
Can anyone explain to me why you would buy a Hydra from someone other than Phil directly? I can only believe it is because they are buying directly from the people who would be tuning their car, but that isn't the case here apparently. It really just sounds like Matt had some bad luck, but is letting his unhappiness cloud his logic and reasoning on how to best deal with this problem. Sometimes people want to blame the vendor (which isn't even true in this case IMO since Phil didn't sell the product directly), instead of the circumstance (such as shipping damage) or the product itself.

offset

Unless it's a local tuner, you're right, you don't buy it from anyone else. World One is my vendor/tuning shop, and Phil goes by there several times a year to tune cars, so it was a no brainer.

It sucks because I wish it had worked out better for Matt. I talked to him about buying some parts from him in the classified a little while ago, and he seemed cool. Always helping with questions I have in the built motors forum and dealing with my noobiness in that forum. I don't believe he's handling this situation properly though. I'm no noob when it comes to business, and I think he's letting his frustration get the best of him.

This happens time to time. I did trust World One and Element, and I couldn't be happier. I was frustrated too, but I truly felt the two parties did all they could to keep me happy. Now...I'm happy So I still give the Element Hydra my full endorsement.
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Old 06-19-2006, 07:10 PM   #24
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I have obviously seen that I was wrong in jumping the gun. Why even post here??????

Anyone with my post in quotes please edit it so we can put this to rest. Thanks for reading and sorry for posting, I just needed to vent at the time.

Oh and I was told by the shop I ordered the Hydra through that I needed to contact Phil and then Phil put me in contact with HydraEMS. So I was pushed into the middle of the transaction by the partied envolved, not by my choice. I said all along that I did not want to be involved and just wanted what I paid for. I was patient enough and never got any response except for lies about what was going on. If I had been informed what was going with with Phil and JSC then I would have been perfectly fine. When I got the e-mail from Hydra saying nothing was being done I panic'd.

-Matt

Last edited by ShaggyGT; 06-21-2006 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 06-20-2006, 02:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyGT
I have obviously seen that I was wrong in jumping the gun. Why even post here??????

Anyone with my post in quotes please edit it so we can put this to rest. Thanks for reading and sorry for posting, I just needed to vent at the time.

-Matt

Done.
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