Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday August 27, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-03-2006, 11:24 AM   #1
PDXTuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 49831
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: www.pdxtuning.com
Vehicle:
2008 Get Tuned Now
Knowledge is Power

Default H6 3.0T Tuning, Phase 1 Ė Low Boost Pump Fuel

Since this is an update, but about a different car, I thought I would start a different thread. As most of your know, we put a second H6 into my 2002 WRX recently. I finished up the 1000 mile breakin with a total oil consumption from driving it the first mile of about Ĺ a qt. I was very pleased with the breakin, and the motor runs very smoothly. In an effort to share with the community, Iíll post up not only power, but AFR, timing, and boost datasets.

This is a stock H6 motor except for the addition of Supertec Forged H6 8:1 CR pistons. The stock valve train components are a very limiting factor in pushing the motor, so this initial tune is just to help develop maps. The motor will be pulled out in the next few weeks for internal upgrades. Part of the reason I went ahead and built the car up with the existing motor was to help us build up a list of the work required, custom components, special parts, etc.

The Turbo currently on the car is a GT30R 52Lb with a 0.82 A/R Turbine side. Injectors are modified blues (~810ccs each), and the intake manifold is the first gen H63.0 manifold. FMIC is a modified Perrin, EM is the Hydra-H6.

Given the valve train limitations (the exhaust valve springs are only 15 lbs), I didnít want to push the boost up above 14psi. I started at about 8psi, which quickly netted about 330whp. Upping to 10psi netteted 370whp, and 12psi over 400whp. At about 13psi, I was able to get ~420whp and about ~400 ft-lbf torque. I was very happy to get 400whp at only 12psi on pump 92 octane without the motor even breaking a sweat. At this low boost level, I could run AFRs anywhere from 11.1 to 12.5:1 without knock.

Here are a few data plots to show how the tuning went:



This plot shows the boost, AFRs, and Ignition Timing. With the dyno load at 12 seconds, complete spoolup occurs just past 3000 rpm. As you can see in the graph, you get almost 8psi at 3000 rpm, and 12psi at about 3300. AFRs at the lower end start out in the high 12s, run around 12 in the midrange, dipping to around 11.2 uptop. Timing goes down to about 11, and rises to about 17 at redline. The small cylinder bore is apparent in the timing needed for good power.



Here you can see the injector duty cycle, boost, and knock levels. With a peak injector duty of about 55%, 100% duty would be in the theoretical 730-750whp range.




Here is a look at the 30R at about 12psi compared to a GT30R .82 on a 2.5L STI at about 17psi, both on pump fuel. Note that at 3000rpm, there is a torque difference of 62 ft-lbf.



Here is the H6 with a bit more boost (12.5-13psi) compared to a GT30R .82 on a 2.5L STI at about 18-18.5psi, on pump fuel. Torque difference at 3300 rpm is 75 ft-lbf, and horsepower breaks 400 at 5000 rpm.

As I was tuning I did run into one problem however. At boost levels above about 8.5psi, I would get a misfire right around 3400 rpm. At first I thought this was related to the lift (which was set to turn on at 3500rpm), however further investigation proved that assumption false. The car would routinely misfire between 3300 and 3400 rpm, if the boost in that region was above 8.5 psi. If I tapered the boost so it came on later, the problem would not occur. The problem seemed unrelated to timing and AFRs. I ran that exact spot anywhere from 10.8:1 all the way to 13.5:1, and the misfire still occurred. Timing changes also made no difference We saw a similar problem on Jeffís car, but incorrectly assumed it to be the lift engagement.

I did, however, experiment with lift engagement at a number of different rpm points. See the graph below:



In this graph, there are 4 pulls.

Pull 1: (red) Lift set to 3000rpm. You can see the lift kick in, and torque output drops significantly. Clearly even though there is significant boost at this point, more torque is produced with the lower lift.

Pull 2: (green) Lift set to 3500rpm. Right at 3500 rpm, you can see the dip at the lift kicks in. It seems pretty close, but perhaps just a bit early. Notice the green is the highest between 3800 and 4000.

Pull 3: (blue) Lift set to 4000rpm. You can see the torque advantage over the green from 3500 to about 3800. Above 4000, green and blue are nearly equal.

Pull 4: (purple) Lift set to 4500rpm. Again you can see the crossover at 3800, and significant torque difference above 4000.

From the above runs, the ideal turn on point appears to be around 3800 rpm, which funny enough is what my butt dyno picked on the road a few weeks ago while I was breaking the car in.,

There are a few other weird datapoints to go with the above data. First, the misfire did not happen in the first run case. If the car passes 3400rpm at high boost with the lift on, there is no misfire. Unfortunately, having the lift turn on at 3000 rpm causes the blow off valve to go off and the torque dives when the lift kicks in. With the lift turnon at 3800, there is still a slight misfire at 3400 rpm. While I do not yet know the complete reason, it may be related to the valvetrain springs, which are very very weak. Once we get a motor with the new valve springs back on the dyno, we can confirm this. I suspect the cam and lift design never intended there to be positive boost.

Lastly, here are few snapshots


Engine in car.


Engine in car.


Car on Dyno


Car on Dyno

Jeff Sponaugle
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
PDXTuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 11:24 AM   #2
PDXTuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 49831
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: www.pdxtuning.com
Vehicle:
2008 Get Tuned Now
Knowledge is Power

Default


Benís H6 turbo Legacy under construction.


Ben at his favorite place, the welder.
PDXTuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 11:53 AM   #3
ShaggyGT
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 19221
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT (STi)
UR35R/Rotated Intake Mani

Default

Sweet!!! Looks like its coming along. We may have something here at the shop that you may be interested in. Shoot me a PM for details.

Keep up the good work as always!!!

-Matt
ShaggyGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 11:56 AM   #4
pdxsilverwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 54935
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Oregon
Default

Looks very promising Jeff. I have no plans of going this way but innovation is almost always a good thing.
pdxsilverwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 12:07 PM   #5
RedlineFl
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 99842
Join Date: Nov 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Jax, FL
Vehicle:
02 BMW 530i
SOLD 04 WRX SRR St 2

Default

Nice!! 400+whp at 13psi thats like heaven.
RedlineFl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 12:19 PM   #6
roo21
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 108112
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oxford/Cincinnati
Vehicle:
05 wrx
Crystal Gray Metallic

Default

wow awesome project you have going there!
roo21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 12:31 PM   #7
AZScoobie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8785
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Vehicle:
02 c_turner@ix.
netcom.com

Default

The Smurfs Called. They want there turbo back.. Time for a 4088RL!

Great job Jeff! Must feel nice on the road.

Clark
AZScoobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 12:48 PM   #8
slvr02scooby
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 86628
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Beaverton,Oregon
Vehicle:
2002 WRX EJ257
COBB Tuning Surgeline

Default

Very nice Jeff! 400whp at 13psi...mmmmm.... Any chance it'll be back on the dyno this week? I'd like to come see it in action!
slvr02scooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 12:53 PM   #9
car_cursed
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 85327
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: West Jordan, UT
Vehicle:
More projects than
you can shake a stick at.

Default

how much more does this all weigh compared to a ej207, or ej257?
car_cursed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 12:53 PM   #10
PDXTuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 49831
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: www.pdxtuning.com
Vehicle:
2008 Get Tuned Now
Knowledge is Power

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScoobie
The Smurfs Called. They want there turbo back.. Time for a 4088RL!

Great job Jeff! Must feel nice on the road.

Clark
HAHAAHA.. Yea, 30R is pretty small for this guy, but it does feel great around town! We are working on the twin scroll manifold right now for the 40R, which I hope will work out well.

It's nice just to have my car running again, and the extra displacement doesn't hurt either!

Jeff
PDXTuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 01:03 PM   #11
Pacobeagle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8775
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Mobile,AL
Vehicle:
2010 "Zed" 1000
Orange/White

Default

Nice, just one question for Jared.....Can I have those headlights?

Oh, did you ever find out about the mainshaft and 2nd gear for me? Please send me an email at, Pacobeagle@bellsouth.net
Pacobeagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 01:17 PM   #12
dug-e-fresh
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4568
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: 603 whp / EJ207
Vehicle:
10.7 @ 136, '02 WRX
??.? @ ???, '09 spec.B

Default

dual dtec solenoids? hmmm...

anyway, good job! could an H6 equipped WRX/STi be the Supra Killer???

def
dug-e-fresh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 01:29 PM   #13
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXTuning
In an effort to share with the community, Iíll post up not only power, but AFR, timing, and boost datasets.
thank you for your honesty and candor.

i found the data wrt valve lift very interesting.

ken
ride5000 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 02:50 PM   #14
ryanpietro
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 101803
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Vehicle:
2005 gt35r sti
blue

Default

that is amazing imagine a gt40r at 20psi.
ryanpietro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 03:30 PM   #15
jemar2169
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88786
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2004 wrx
platinum silver

Default

i was messing around and found out that all you need to do is run 32.5 psi of boost and maybe c16 you will be around the thousand hp range, good against ams!
jemar2169 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 04:00 PM   #16
Element Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:
673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

Default

Jeff,

Congratulations, those are really impressive numbers for only 13 psi.

On the topic regarding your misfires are you running AVCS?

If yes you may have it set too aggressively. If set with too much solenoid duty the car will misfire badly around that area. The amount of duty you can get away with totally depends on the head package and cams. For instance I cannot run anywhere near the AVCS duty cycles with my current cams as I could with stock. Also if you are running the AVCS solenoids in low frequency switch over to high frequency for a quick test.

Also your dwell settings may be off. Iíve spent lots of time fine tuning the dwell on these cars and less is better with the newer coil packs. We have run the stock system to nearly 700 whp and dwell wanted to be very low not high.

I honestly suspect itís an AVCS issue as thatís where my current setup misfires with too much AVCS advance. Let me know if you need any feedback.

Good luck!

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
http://www.elementtuning.com
Element Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 05:44 PM   #17
PDXTuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 49831
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: www.pdxtuning.com
Vehicle:
2008 Get Tuned Now
Knowledge is Power

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Jeff,
Congratulations, those are really impressive numbers for only 13 psi.
On the topic regarding your misfires are you running AVCS?
If yes you may have it set too aggressively. If set with too much solenoid duty the car will misfire badly around that area. The amount of duty you can get away with totally depends on the head package and cams. For instance I cannot run anywhere near the AVCS duty cycles with my current cams as I could with stock. Also if you are running the AVCS solenoids in low frequency switch over to high frequency for a quick test.
Also your dwell settings may be off. Iíve spent lots of time fine tuning the dwell on these cars and less is better with the newer coil packs. We have run the stock system to nearly 700 whp and dwell wanted to be very low not high.
I honestly suspect itís an AVCS issue as thatís where my current setup misfires with too much AVCS advance. Let me know if you need any feedback.
Thanks,
Phil Grabow
Thanks for the input Phil. The AVCS is not hooked up at all right now, so the cams should be stuck at zero. After some more experimentation, I can confirm that if the lift is active, it never happens. I remember when talking to Supertec about the springs that he commented that the low lift valve spring was very very light, something like 20lbs, while the higher lift was much more.... It could be related to the low lift springs not being strong enough...

I will, however, hook up the AVCS and play around with it some. I meant to get it wired up, but just didn't get around to it yet. I'll play with it and let you know.

I love the hydra btw. The tuning has been fantastic, and MAP based rocks. I'm hooking up my water injection to the hydra right now in fact. We are going to convert Tims 596whp GT37 to the Hydra as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dug-e-fresh
dual dtec solenoids? hmmm...
anyway, good job! could an H6 equipped WRX/STi be the Supra Killer???
def
Yea, I ran two solenoids on the 35R with the 2.5, but I still need to plumb the second one for this setup. Since in the final config I will be doing the twin scroll 40R with two wastegates, I'd need 4 solenoids to do the same dual config per wastegate!

Anyways, I've got to get back to the wire mess in my car, as I am tring to clean up some of the excess wires that have accumulated over the years.

More dyno data later, as I am going to run some VP109 and see if there is more power to be had at 13psi.

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com
PDXTuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 07:31 PM   #18
WRXRallyBlue
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48831
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno
Vehicle:
2002 Protuned Wagon
Bugeyes Forever

Default

Great posts as always, Jeff. Thanks!
WRXRallyBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 07:38 PM   #19
modaddict
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 95840
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pasco, WA
Vehicle:
sold to a good bud
awaiting next car

Default

I have wood.
modaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 07:50 PM   #20
happasaiyan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37731
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rolling Meadows, IL
Vehicle:
'07 TL-S 6MT
'07 RDX-T

Default

wow. 13psi at 3250 on a 30R .82...with AVCS off...and weak springs. wow.

happasaiyan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 07:58 PM   #21
wrxtremeWGN
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12281
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Stony Brook, NY
Vehicle:
08 FSXT
Tiger's Blood

Default

awesome project and even better right up as usual!
wrxtremeWGN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 08:13 PM   #22
kevinh211
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56297
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Long Island NY
Vehicle:
2004 STi HTA Green
28psi, MSPT Tuned

Default

awesome write up!
these H6 Turbo build ups are like reading history in the making.
its amazing the car is making so much power at such a low boost, those two extra cylinders do wonders.
kevinh211 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 08:19 PM   #23
Freon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88322
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle:
2009 BMW 135i

Default

Pretty neat. Wow that timing is low! That's a good 5-6 degrees behind a EJ257 which I would even assume has a better head.
Freon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 08:45 PM   #24
sponaugle
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4498
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
WRX H6-3.0 Turbo
www.surgelinetuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
Pretty neat. Wow that timing is low! That's a good 5-6 degrees behind a EJ257 which I would even assume has a better head.
Yea, the cylinder bore is much smaller (89.2mm compared to 99.5mm). Usually smaller bore motors need less timing, so this falls inline with what I would have expected. I'll drop in some race fuel and see if more timing gains anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinh211
awesome write up!
these H6 Turbo build ups are like reading history in the making.
its amazing the car is making so much power at such a low boost, those two extra cylinders do wonders.

Yea, looking at it in terms of power per cylinder/rod, 400whp/6 cyl is 66whp/cyl, which is equivilent to 264whp on a 4 cylinder. So the power on each rod and piston is not too bad.

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 07-03-2006 at 08:52 PM.
sponaugle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 09:39 PM   #25
jblaine
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8512
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 WRX chassis...
stage-infinity.com

Default

Is the blue silicone hose around the oil filler neck functional?
jblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3.0 H6 into 95 Impreza: Phase Two, Wiring anders8 Subaru Conversions 52 04-28-2013 11:02 PM
need advice on how i should change my tune to run low boost on a v34 in my fxt andy87t2 Open Source Reflashes 6 04-12-2009 08:12 PM
Cosworth Engined STI with Dyno Flash Pro Tune - huge low boost pump gas power Dyno Flash Proven Power Bragging 30 10-30-2006 09:37 AM
Hesitation @ high RPM, low boost, and Fuel Cut K.Linchpin Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 4 09-17-2006 09:07 PM
Cobb Tuning Phase 1.....hurtful? Midnightman Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 2 12-12-2001 11:14 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.