Anti Lag with AP?

thejean · 06-03-2006, 01:46 AM

Can you program the AP for anti-lag with the Sreet Tuner software? How appropriate is this EMS combo for a rally car? I already have an AP, Stg 2 and getting a PDX Dyno protune in July, which I plan to get tuned for throttle response, quick spool-up and low end TQ. JC

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ms3p · 06-03-2006, 01:53 AM

the size of your turbo will remain the same, no matter the tuning you do.
You could probably squeese a few RPMs out of it, but afterall it is still same size turbine.

EDIT:
Your stock turbo is really not that laggy.
Honestly.
I am not lying.
I promise.

thejean · 06-03-2006, 02:00 AM

I realize that but for rallycross it is a bit laggy off-boost in say second gear. Mind you, I'm comparing my Stg 2 to an '06 stg 2. Just curious if the functionality is there in the AP. Anti-lag will help a bit with any rally car I think. Can achieve a similar effect with left foot braking I realize but still, you can get caught out in tight stuff.

Unabomber · 06-04-2006, 01:04 AM

You do realize with anti lag though you'd be buying turbos every 10 minutes or so right? Anti lag kicks butt if you have the WRC parts truck following you around, but when you are on your own, buying new TD04L-13T turbos twice a week will get real old and real expensive real quick.

thejean · 06-04-2006, 01:23 AM

Good point but I would only use it during rallies, no other time. Have different realtime maps for more open stages (no anti-lag) and different ones for tight stages (with anti-lag). 15 seconds or so to change between maps to save the turbo... would be a pretty good setup I think. After all, once the car is a dedicated rally car, I'd have 10 different map slots for 10 different rally scenarios. With the street tuner software, programming different maps with and without anti-lag would be easy. Again, it all depends if the AP has this functionality or not, which noone seems to know.

Gethin · 06-04-2006, 01:37 AM

As far as I know you need another EM for anti lag. I dont know of anyone using AP or ST so I dont think it has this capability. I hear the stock ECU can support ALS but I don't actually know of anyone that has it set up.

Also all the rally cars that I work on which use antilag use race gas, 103 or 109. We use Autronic, GEMS, Link Plus etc etc for anit lag setups. As Unabobmer says it's pretty hard on your car, but I know of lots of people who use it on daily drivers too (back in the UK) as long as you can switch it on and off you're ok. I've seen VF30's and VF37 twin scroll setups last a whole rally season on pretty harsh antilag setups, but rally cars get serviced lots too........

Lots depends on what u are doing too, if you are competing then you need to be in the proper class with the correct mods. If you're getting into stage rallying then PM me and we can chat offline.

ckanderson · 06-04-2006, 01:55 AM

lol.. your turbo is NOT laggy... seriously... for real.

ever driven a gt45R powered Supra?

Pakin · 06-04-2006, 01:56 AM

I think the feasibility/reliability of ALS and its debated adverse effects should be left to those who have actual experience with them. I see too much of one side saying it will destroy x part and another side saying it is not that extreme. There are different setups to ALS and some mild and some wild. There are some reported users that don't go through turbos on a redundant basis. You can search around for a thread regarding ALS and even some of the more experienced UK users @ scoobynet.

-paK +3

thejean · 06-04-2006, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckanderson

ever driven a gt45R powered Supra?

No and probably never will.

I realize the stock WRX turbo is not VERY laggy, but it does have some turbo lag, especially when compared to the off-boost throttle response in the new 06's, or any 2.5 for that matter. In rallying, every second counts and anti-lag can be a help when you get caught out. Many guys running in production classes use anti-lag... I'm not considering anything unprecedented here... just wondering if it can also be done with an AP. In daily driving, the stock setup is fine as it is for sure.

Interesting to know that the stock ECU has the ability though. Means that there is potential to program this through the AP. I'll check with Cobb...

ckanderson · 06-04-2006, 04:05 AM

sorry.. i just think its funny.. my STi and my friends 05 wrx's have almost zero lag... expecialy with a downpipe...after owning supra's before the STi, i would almost prefer a laggy'r turbo.. it makes for much easier throtle modulation.. i have some trouble in bumpy corners with the super fast turbo response

viking pete · 06-04-2006, 07:44 PM

I know this is going a different direction, but have you considered a small nitrous shot just to push you into boost in these rare occasions when you absolutely need to get there?

thejean · 06-04-2006, 07:45 PM

Nitrous on a rally car... not sure I've ever heard of anyone doing that. Could be a safety issue.

Tea cups · 06-04-2006, 07:58 PM

It would be more cost effective in the long run to swap in a 2.5 block for better low end, than trying to run an anti-lag system.

thejean · 06-04-2006, 07:59 PM

Agreed but that pushes you out of production class and into open class.

waktasz · 06-04-2006, 08:20 PM

How about water/alky injection? Not sure how it affects low-end though, but I think you can run way more timing and not ping with alky, or is that only on boost?

Tea cups · 06-04-2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejean

Agreed but that pushes you out of production class and into open class.

What about a 6-speed swap? This would eliminate the big drop between 1st and 2nd in the 5-speed and give you lower gear ratios for added torque multiplication. You would spend more time in the meat of the powerband.

thejean · 06-04-2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tea cups

What about a 6-speed swap? This would eliminate the big drop between 1st and 2nd in the 5-speed and give you lower gear ratios for added torque multiplication. You would spend more time in the meat of the powerband.

Same, pushes you into open class where money dictates who does well and who doesn't.

You could just buy an 06 WRX or 04+ STi but the problem with this is that caliper modifications are not allowed in Production classes, and the 4-pots and brembos won't fit under the 15" gravel wheels used in rally. And good luck finding and affording 16" or 17" gravel tires. Don't even know if they make them.

So alas, I am back at the 02-05 WRX with anti-lag.

Gethin · 06-04-2006, 10:23 PM

anti lag will also put you into open class.

thejean · 06-04-2006, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gethin

anti lag will also put you into open class.

Oh. ***shuts up***

pdesim · 06-13-2006, 05:32 PM

what about timing changes with the AP?

thejean · 06-13-2006, 05:46 PM

An AP certainly does change timing. Can you be a bit more specific?

pdesim · 06-13-2006, 05:49 PM

can't you change timing to increase your low end and accomplish the same thing as reducing lag? forgive me if I am off-base. I am still trying to learn as much as possible and heard something about this in another forum I think.

thejean · 06-13-2006, 06:08 PM

you can, but only to a point.

what anti-lag does is keep your turbo spinning (or boosting) so when you want the power, the boost is already there.

hondaeater69 · 06-13-2006, 07:02 PM

the AP cannot be programmed for anti-lag. An aftermarket system would be required for this, i believe the only EMS's that can do anti-lag are standalones.

and turbo's don't die within days from an ALS. From how i understand it, thrust bearing turbos tend to fare much better with ALS than true ball bearing turbos (don't ask me why though).

Gethin · 06-16-2006, 02:06 AM

GEMS and Link are piggybacks, which have these features and more (they can use MAF or MAP too!

)

Also I believe in Canada u can actually run ALS in production class.....as a piggyback only, just to correct my above statement, you have to have the stock ECU in there too.

06-03-2006, 01:46 AM	#1
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	Anti Lag with AP? Can you program the AP for anti-lag with the Sreet Tuner software? How appropriate is this EMS combo for a rally car? I already have an AP, Stg 2 and getting a PDX Dyno protune in July, which I plan to get tuned for throttle response, quick spool-up and low end TQ. JC * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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06-03-2006, 01:53 AM	#2
ms3p Scooby Specialist Member#: 51596 Join Date: Dec 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: palatine, IL Vehicle: 2007 G35S 6MT 2006 SV650S blue hotness	the size of your turbo will remain the same, no matter the tuning you do. You could probably squeese a few RPMs out of it, but afterall it is still same size turbine. EDIT: Your stock turbo is really not that laggy. Honestly. I am not lying. I promise.

06-03-2006, 02:00 AM	#3
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	I realize that but for rallycross it is a bit laggy off-boost in say second gear. Mind you, I'm comparing my Stg 2 to an '06 stg 2. Just curious if the functionality is there in the AP. Anti-lag will help a bit with any rally car I think. Can achieve a similar effect with left foot braking I realize but still, you can get caught out in tight stuff.

06-04-2006, 01:04 AM	#4
Unabomber Big Ron Moderator Member#: 18062 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: I can save you a ton of cash Vehicle: on car parts so PM me b4 j00 buy	You do realize with anti lag though you'd be buying turbos every 10 minutes or so right? Anti lag kicks butt if you have the WRC parts truck following you around, but when you are on your own, buying new TD04L-13T turbos twice a week will get real old and real expensive real quick.

06-04-2006, 01:23 AM	#5
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	Good point but I would only use it during rallies, no other time. Have different realtime maps for more open stages (no anti-lag) and different ones for tight stages (with anti-lag). 15 seconds or so to change between maps to save the turbo... would be a pretty good setup I think. After all, once the car is a dedicated rally car, I'd have 10 different map slots for 10 different rally scenarios. With the street tuner software, programming different maps with and without anti-lag would be easy. Again, it all depends if the AP has this functionality or not, which noone seems to know.

06-04-2006, 01:37 AM	#6
Gethin Scooby Specialist Member#: 2998 Join Date: Nov 2000 Chapter/Region: VIC Location: BC Vehicle: 2002 WRX WRB	As far as I know you need another EM for anti lag. I dont know of anyone using AP or ST so I dont think it has this capability. I hear the stock ECU can support ALS but I don't actually know of anyone that has it set up. Also all the rally cars that I work on which use antilag use race gas, 103 or 109. We use Autronic, GEMS, Link Plus etc etc for anit lag setups. As Unabobmer says it's pretty hard on your car, but I know of lots of people who use it on daily drivers too (back in the UK) as long as you can switch it on and off you're ok. I've seen VF30's and VF37 twin scroll setups last a whole rally season on pretty harsh antilag setups, but rally cars get serviced lots too........ Lots depends on what u are doing too, if you are competing then you need to be in the proper class with the correct mods. If you're getting into stage rallying then PM me and we can chat offline.

06-04-2006, 01:55 AM	#7
ckanderson Scooby Newbie Member#: 47445 Join Date: Nov 2003 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: Livermore Vehicle: 2003 Charged Cobra White	lol.. your turbo is NOT laggy... seriously... for real. ever driven a gt45R powered Supra?

06-04-2006, 01:56 AM	#8
Pakin Scooby Specialist Member#: 17315 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: International Location: Date Line Denies F-22s Vehicle: MY95 Impreza 207C MY05 Forester 257X	I think the feasibility/reliability of ALS and its debated adverse effects should be left to those who have actual experience with them. I see too much of one side saying it will destroy x part and another side saying it is not that extreme. There are different setups to ALS and some mild and some wild. There are some reported users that don't go through turbos on a redundant basis. You can search around for a thread regarding ALS and even some of the more experienced UK users @ scoobynet. -paK +3

06-04-2006, 04:05 AM	#10
ckanderson Scooby Newbie Member#: 47445 Join Date: Nov 2003 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: Livermore Vehicle: 2003 Charged Cobra White	sorry.. i just think its funny.. my STi and my friends 05 wrx's have almost zero lag... expecialy with a downpipe...after owning supra's before the STi, i would almost prefer a laggy'r turbo.. it makes for much easier throtle modulation.. i have some trouble in bumpy corners with the super fast turbo response

06-04-2006, 07:44 PM	#11
viking pete Scooby Newbie Member#: 114548 Join Date: May 2006 Location: New Orleans, LA Vehicle: 2006 WRX Crystal Gray Metallic	I know this is going a different direction, but have you considered a small nitrous shot just to push you into boost in these rare occasions when you absolutely need to get there?

06-04-2006, 07:45 PM	#12
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	Nitrous on a rally car... not sure I've ever heard of anyone doing that. Could be a safety issue.

06-04-2006, 07:58 PM	#13
Tea cups Scooby Specialist Member#: 103136 Join Date: Dec 2005	It would be more cost effective in the long run to swap in a 2.5 block for better low end, than trying to run an anti-lag system.

06-04-2006, 07:59 PM	#14
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	Agreed but that pushes you out of production class and into open class.

06-04-2006, 08:20 PM	#15
waktasz Scooby Guru Member#: 86356 Join Date: May 2005 Chapter/Region: Tri-State	How about water/alky injection? Not sure how it affects low-end though, but I think you can run way more timing and not ping with alky, or is that only on boost?

06-04-2006, 10:23 PM	#18
Gethin Scooby Specialist Member#: 2998 Join Date: Nov 2000 Chapter/Region: VIC Location: BC Vehicle: 2002 WRX WRB	anti lag will also put you into open class.

06-13-2006, 05:32 PM	#20
pdesim Scooby Newbie Member#: 82771 Join Date: Mar 2005	what about timing changes with the AP?

06-13-2006, 05:46 PM	#21
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	An AP certainly does change timing. Can you be a bit more specific?

06-13-2006, 05:49 PM	#22
pdesim Scooby Newbie Member#: 82771 Join Date: Mar 2005	can't you change timing to increase your low end and accomplish the same thing as reducing lag? forgive me if I am off-base. I am still trying to learn as much as possible and heard something about this in another forum I think.

06-13-2006, 06:08 PM	#23
thejean Scooby Specialist Member#: 17763 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: Calgary, AB	you can, but only to a point. what anti-lag does is keep your turbo spinning (or boosting) so when you want the power, the boost is already there.

06-13-2006, 07:02 PM	#24
hondaeater69 Scooby Guru Member#: 60324 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: a pillow.	the AP cannot be programmed for anti-lag. An aftermarket system would be required for this, i believe the only EMS's that can do anti-lag are standalones. and turbo's don't die within days from an ALS. From how i understand it, thrust bearing turbos tend to fare much better with ALS than true ball bearing turbos (don't ask me why though).

06-16-2006, 02:06 AM	#25
Gethin Scooby Specialist Member#: 2998 Join Date: Nov 2000 Chapter/Region: VIC Location: BC Vehicle: 2002 WRX WRB	GEMS and Link are piggybacks, which have these features and more (they can use MAF or MAP too! ) Also I believe in Canada u can actually run ALS in production class.....as a piggyback only, just to correct my above statement, you have to have the stock ECU in there too.