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Old 07-17-2006, 09:36 AM   #1
THE-95-STi
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Default Thinking about going with a Hydra??

Its Definatly worth every penny in my opinion coming from the UTEC on my same set-up, my car pulls so much harder and stronger. I decided to go with because I have heard nothing but good thing about to most everyone I talk to, that and I live in MD and so dose PHiL. I plan on purchasing his GT65 turbo( When will it be ready?? )kit but even on my stock turbo my spool just sounds louder my friend(who bougth the UTEC) even made the comment to me, so I just wasn't hearing what I wanted to hear I can't wait for the kit and to get Phil to tune it I really feel I got my money's worth! since Phil has been there to answer all my noob questions!!

Scott
(Phil can't thank you enough, and can't wait for the Hydramist kit and the GT65 kit)

I was thinking about doing a dyno pull today so will see what I'm putting down w/out a tune on the stock turbo set up.
Current mods being run

Turbo XS:
TBE w/high flow cat
FMIC
Manuel boost controller

&
K&N short ram
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:33 AM   #2
thejean
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Does the Hydra support things like airbags, cruise control, etc.?
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:33 PM   #3
entropy138
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Airbags are controlled by a seperate box (i believe its under the arm rest)...

You only lose cruise control if you are drive-by-wire (aka an sti... reg throttle cabled cars retain CC)
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:57 PM   #4
keaniegenie
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+1,000

came from a utec also.
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Old 07-17-2006, 03:42 PM   #5
THE-95-STi
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yea I miss the cruise control only bummer. I'm gonna hold off on the Dyno pull, I'm gonna put my 816cc Injectors and fuel pump in. Then DO IT
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:59 PM   #6
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM-04-STi
Its Definatly worth every penny in my opinion coming from the UTEC on my same set-up, my car pulls so much harder and stronger. I decided to go with because I have heard nothing but good thing about to most everyone I talk to, that and I live in MD and so dose PHiL. I plan on purchasing his GT65 turbo( When will it be ready?? )kit but even on my stock turbo my spool just sounds louder my friend(who bougth the UTEC) even made the comment to me, so I just wasn't hearing what I wanted to hear I can't wait for the kit and to get Phil to tune it I really feel I got my money's worth! since Phil has been there to answer all my noob questions!!

Scott
(Phil can't thank you enough, and can't wait for the Hydramist kit and the GT65 kit)

I was thinking about doing a dyno pull today so will see what I'm putting down w/out a tune on the stock turbo set up.
Current mods being run

Turbo XS:
TBE w/high flow cat
FMIC
Manuel boost controller

&
K&N short ram
Scott,

I'm glad you're happy and up and running. When I return from tuning on the west coast I'm sure I'll be seeing you soon for a tune.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:23 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM-04-STi
coming from the UTEC on my same set-up, my car pulls so much harder and stronger.
so how is it that your hydra has unlocked all this torque? was the utec tuned? is the hydra tuned? if not, which base maps did you run on the utec, and which maps are you running on the hydra? did you change ONLY the ems, and nothing else, or were other modifications done at the same time.

Quote:
kit but even on my stock turbo my spool just sounds louder my friend(who bougth the UTEC) even made the comment to me, so I just wasn't hearing what I wanted to hear
did you put your passenger's footwell back together properly?
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:33 PM   #8
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He was actually in his car infront of me, thats were he was listening from. Neither were tuned just running stock maps, didn't see the point of wasting the money on tunning the Utec since I planned on purchasing the Hydra, as for the ulocked power, I had all the same mods as the UTEC was running.
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Old 07-21-2006, 06:27 AM   #9
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how do you propose that swapping ems made your turbo actually acoustically louder?

answer:

it didn't.

if you had compared a tuned utec map vs. a tuned hydra map, you would see vanishingly little difference in your power output. what your testimony proves is that hydra supplies better basemaps, according to your butt dyno. i am not surprised, knowing how rich and retarded the base utec maps are.
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:22 AM   #10
THE-95-STi
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
how do you propose that swapping ems made your turbo actually acoustically louder?

answer:

it didn't.

if you had compared a tuned utec map vs. a tuned hydra map, you would see vanishingly little difference in your power output. what your testimony proves is that hydra supplies better basemaps, according to your butt dyno. i am not surprised, knowing how rich and retarded the base utec maps are.
so what your telling me is that Hydra is no better then the UTEC, it just came with a better base map
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM-04-STi
so what your telling me is that Hydra is no better then the UTEC, it just came with a better base map
you obviously don't know much about ems, or tuning engines.

the hydra and the utec both have different sets of features. in isolation, one is no better than the other.

for example, how far will you get if it is absolutely critical that you pass an obd2 emissions test for vehicle inspection if you have a) a hydra, or b) a utec? EVERY ems has a feature that the next does not have. one becomes "better" than another only when you factor in what your requirements are.

swapping one base-mapped ems for another and entertaining the thought that a subjective butt-dyno interpretation "proves" in any way, shape, or form, that one is BETTER than another is sophomoric. but hey, you're free to feel however you'd like.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:13 AM   #12
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your right I can do what I want, and I didn't know much about ems when I bought the Utec because if I did I would have Just bought the Hydra in the first place, I'm not going to argue with you about this because it looks like you still need to learn more about the Hydra, minus the Emission Factor and cruise control. Your right I choose the Hydra for the set-up I'm going with. Thanks

I'm happy with my purchase, Hate all you want. I won't be going back to the Utec any time soon. Also have you owned a Hydra? Used the Tunning software that you get with it?
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Hate all you want.
hate?

you have no idea!

here's a lesson for you. you're entitled to take it or leave it.

to make power, the ems does two things for sure:

1) fires the plugs
2) squirts the fuel

it MIGHT do a third thing:

3) control boost

that's it.

whether you achieve the fire and squirt via a:
1) oem ecu with a
1a) diy reflash
1b) cobb reflash
1c) ecutek reflash
2) hydra
3) utec
4) xede
5) unichip
6) megasquirt
7) haltech
8) autronic
9) etc etc etc

if the spark fires at the same # of degrees btdc, and the injector on time is the same, and the boost is the same, and the ambient air temp/humidity is the same, and the gas is the same, the power output will be absolutely 100% identical.

there is no magic ecu that just adds power... sad but true.

Quote:
it looks like you still need to learn more about the Hydra
i'll bet i know more about YOUR hydra than YOU do. can you tell me the one software feature that, if used and tuned properly, would actually enable you to run a hotter tune before det?
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:15 AM   #14
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ride5000 is right, and definitely doesn't need my backing to prove it.

I'm glad you're happy with your purchase, and I'm sure ride5000 is as well.

It's the tune / base map.

Ask Phil if the Hydra will make noticeably more power than a UTEC when tuned to the exact same specifications (fuel, timing, boost, temperature, elevation)

Point being, you threw away a UTEC without even giving it a shot at doing what it's designed for: Being tuned.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:23 AM   #15
THE-95-STi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM-04-STi
my car pulls so much harder and stronger.
Where did I say I gained Horsepower?? on my set-up?? I still have yet to see that? in my posts

Why don't you give the run down on what features the Utec offers and what the Hydra offers from the tunning perspective and where I went wrong with my purchase for my Future plans of the element GT65 kit.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:27 AM   #16
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I have a Hydra.

Nobody is telling you you went WRONG with your purchase.

What you stated pretty plainly in your 1st post is that getting rid of the UTEC and going with the Hydra made your car pull harder and stronger, and that it was the Hydra's doing.

It was the tune's doing.

I'm not going to bicker with you. You're being really defensive.

Good luck with your project!
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:38 AM   #17
THE-95-STi
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Point being, you threw away a UTEC without even giving it a shot at doing what it's designed for: Being tuned.
I didn't throw it away, I just felt it wasn't right for my set-up.So why waste the money on a tune.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:35 AM   #18
InfamousDX
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Yes but you originally implied that one EM was better than the other. Hydra's base maps are just generally better, which is why your car ran better than a UTEC with whatever base map you had on it.
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Old 07-22-2006, 11:07 AM   #19
THE-95-STi
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Yea your all probably right
Hydra:
Window’s based software with easy to use pull down windows and easy to read displays. 3D mapping allows you to quickly spot holes and rough transitions in your mapping. Analog style gauges are easy to read quickly and deliver critical information needed while tuning.


Large panel view option allows you to see more of the 32x32 mapping zones for real time tuning.



Wide Range Mapping Zones:

Often aftermarket engine management systems lack resolution with only 10 or 16 load sites for tuning fuel and ignition timing. This often leaves you using the same load site to tune a large range of boost pressures.

A 32x32 mapping area gives you 32 load sites for boost and vacuum, allowing a wide range of fuel and ignition timing tuning. Partial throttle, high boost, lean run conditions are a thing of past. Complete control under all conditions!

Tuning Convenience:

Standard Windows navigation is intuitive and quick for tuning. Tired of having to stop and upload changes? With Real Time Tuning and Tracking (marks exactly what load site the ecu is using) you can now make changes on the fly.

The Offline Tuning feature allows you to make changes to your map without a connection to the ecu. Extensive data logging allows you to review your tuning in comfort, make changes to the map, and upload them to the ecu when it’s convenient.

Fuel economy:

Closed-loop fuel control utilizes the factory o2 sensor for superior fuel economy under light load. This monitors the specified AFR and automatically adjusts fuel metering to unsure the specified AFR is met. For instance, if you want to run a 14.7:1 AFR under vacuum cruise conditions, your map would look like this:



The ecu will automatically adjust the injector pulse width to maintain the proper AFR of 14.7:1 and will apply long-term fuel trims during the drive cycle.

Automatic Fuel Tuning:

You can enable the ecu to perform a closed-loop operation of the entire fuel map with the Auto Tune feature. In this mode the ecu will automatically adjust fueling to achieve the desired air fuel ratios set in each load site. For instance if your goal is to run 14.7:1 under vacuum, 11.3:1 up to 12 psi, and 10.9:1 at 18 psi, the ecu will automatically adjust the fueling to meet this criteria. The ecu will then apply a “long-term” fuel correction and automatically correct your main fuel map so that the “long-term” fuel corrections are kept to a minimum.



This feature requires the option wide-band o2 sensor which plugs directly into the unit, requiring no additional and expensive hardware. The closed-loop operating range is adjustable for when it is not optimal to run closed-loop fueling.

Large Fuel Injector Compensation:

Even basic modification to car will push your stock fuel injectors to the limit. Larger fuel injectors can often cause your car to stumble pulling up to traffic lights etc as your factory ecu was not programmed to handle this. We’ve added control for:

Injector response time in ms over voltage
Minimum injector pulse width
Injector phasing over 16 rpm ranges
Run low impedance or high impedance injectors without the need for a ballast Individual Fuel Injector Trim



Individual Fuel Injector Control:

Subarus in particular are known to have problems related to a lean running cylinder. Often fuel rails are recommended but they only increase overall fuel and don’t address the problem of uneven air distribution to various cylinders. We’ve added individual injector trim allowing more fuel to be injected to the cylinder that’s running leaner than the rest.

Anti-Lag and Launch Control:

Used primarily for racing applications these can dramatically decrease ¼ times and reduce turbocharger lag. Less sophisticated versions of these systems can cause excessive exhaust gas temperatures and lean run conditions.

We’ve added both a fuel map and an ignition map that allows you to tune specifically for when this option is engaged. You get the same 32x32 mapping resolution as your regular fuel and ignition maps. Complete control under all conditions!



Optional Fuel Maps:

An auxiliary fuel table allows the user to create a race gas map based on the main fuel map. The user can lean out the AFR on this table to an appropriate race gas level such as 12:1 to increase power which can be activated via a simple grounding switch.

This auxiliary fuel table can also be utilized to create a conservative fuel map based on the main fuel map. The user can richen the AFR on this table to an appropriate pump gas level such as 10.5:1 to increase safety margin which can be activated via a simple grounding switch.

Safety:

For when things go wrong and we all know they can when racing, a backup fuel and spark map can be triggered to come online. For instance if major knock events are recorded the backup maps can be set to kick in and drop your AFR from 11.2:1 to 10.5:1 and a less aggressive ignition map can be utilized. The backup ignition and fuel maps have the same 32X32 resolution as your main maps.

Sixteen points of knock threshold adjustment for extremely fine adjustment. This allows you to adjust the sensitivity of the knock system over 16 ranges of RPM. The amount of timing pulled per knock account, the maximum retard, and additional fuel compensation is user defined. Other knock control systems just retard your ignition timing which can sometimes make it worse as it causes exhaust gas temperature to increase dramatically.

Sensor feed back compensation:

Coolant temperature: This uses your factory coolant temperature sensor and allows you to globally adjust the fuel and ignition maps to compensate for 16 ranges of coolant temperatures. The benefit is to add extra fuel and adjust timing for when the car is running outside of normal operating temperatures such as when coolant temperatures are really cold or really hot.



Air intake temperature: This uses your factory MAF sensor for temperature ranges and allows you to globally adjust the fuel and ignition maps to compensate for 16 ranges of air intake temperatures. The benefit is to add extra fuel or adjust timing for when the car is running in a wide rage of temperature conditions due to seasonal changes or desert weather.

Exhaust gas temperature: This requires an EGT sensor for exhaust gat temperature ranges and allows you to globally adjust the fuel and ignition maps to compensate for 16 ranges of exhaust gas temperatures to aid in lean run conditions. The benefit is to add protection against motor meltdown due to excessive egts by adding fuel to cool things down. (Coming soon)

Knock:

Sixteen points of knock threshold adjustment for extremely fine adjustment of knock amplitude. This allows you to adjust the sensitivity of the knock system over 16 ranges of RPM. The amount of timing pulled per knock account, the maximum retard, and additional fuel compensation is user defined. Other knock control systems just retard your ignition timing which can sometimes make things worse as it causes exhaust gas temperature to increase dramatically.

If large amounts of knock are recorded, a backup fuel and spark map can be triggered to come online for safety. For instance if major knock events are recorded and exceed user defined levels, the backup maps can be set to kick in and drop your AFR from 11.2:1 to 10.5:1.



For cars with noisier race engines the engines knock raw voltage amplitude can be data logged to correctly determine the “knock threshold.”

“Tip in” or “Transition” knock:

Often sudden changes in throttle position cannot be quickly picked up by the MAP sensor such as when shifting or lots of on-off throttle situations such as road racing. Many piggy-back type ecus only use MAP for tuning and will experience knock under these conditions. To combat this, the “Throttle Pump” map adjusts fueling based on TPS at various rpm points so there is no need to excessive retard the timing map.

MAF Sensor Limitations:

High hp Subarus often max out the MAF sensor requiring “large” MAF housings which can cause fuel metering and load calculation problems. Element allows you to run speed density alleviating these issues and opens the door to run larger turbochargers with 4” inlets.

Running High Boost:

The factory WRX MAP sensor is really only accurate to about 22 psi so included is a built-in 3 bar map sensor that allows tuning for up to 30psi.

Closed Loop Boost Control:

This allows you to set boost targets over rpm which will reduce fluctuations in boost level due to atmospheric conditions. Other boost settings allow you to control how accurate or fast you want boost response. This type of boost control system is optimal for those parts of the country that experience a wide range of weather conditions.

Complete Rev Limit Control:

A user definable “soft” rev limit slows the engine down before the abrupt “hard” rev limit allowing for smoother rev limit control. An adjustable “launch” control rev limit is great for drag racing and “flat foot” shifting.

“Dwell” Control:

Burned out coil packs can be caused by improper or the lack of “dwell” adjustment. The “dwell” adjustment allows for the tuner to prevent coil over-heating but allow for string spark a high rpm to prevent misfires.

Atmospheric Blow-Off Valves:

The Element ECU converts your MAF sensor metering system to speed density which uses MAP and IAT compensation for its tuning platform allowing you to run vent to atmosphere blow-off valves without the bucking, part throttle hesitation, and rich conditions associated with MAF sensor controlled engine management systems.

High lift Cam Compensation:

Many are upgrading there engines with higher displacement options which often require high lift cams, large fuel injectors and large turbochargers which can cause a rough idle. You can now perform a simple fix by increase idle rpm by about 100 rpm to clean things up with full control over idle speed.

A “Zero TPS Vacuum” control map also allows you to specify a vacuum setting for the ecu to read when the throttle is closed to combat fluctuating vacuum readings cause by “big” cams. This allows for smooth delivery of fuel and a nice clean idle.

Variable Cam Timing:

Cam timing can be controlled and adjusted for optimal performance with two, variable 24x24 maps.

“Staged” Maps:

If this all sounds a little overwhelming then our wide range of “stage” maps exclusive to Element Tuning’s customers will get you up and running quickly.
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Old 07-22-2006, 11:13 AM   #20
THE-95-STi
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Utec:
STI UTEC
standard features include:

Plug-&-Play
No cutting, splicing or additional sensors required
20 minute, do-it-yourself installation
End-user programmable via PC,PDA with HyperTerminal, and
our Game Boy and Smart Cable (coming soon)
Fine tune the maps for your exact setup
Pre-programmed base maps get you started quickly and safely
Base maps for our Staged upgrade packages
Five (5) maps plus “stock mode” selectable with
a flick of the switch
Create custom maps for street gas, race gas, nitrous, or whatever
No need to lug around a laptop just to switch between your program
Optional remote swtich
Fuel, ignition timing, and boost are programmable in 250rpm
increments up to 9000rpm over 10 load sites
Complete ignition timing control

Fuel control
Controlled via MAF sensor signal offset
Tune stock and larger than stock injector
MAP Load refrence for fuel and ignition timing maps (manifold pressure)
Throttle position load refrence for both closed and open loop boost maps

Knock control
Automatically retards timing when the knock is detected safeguarding
against engine damage
Adjustable knock threshold, timing correction, and duration

On board data logging
Built in programmable solenoid controller
Control Nitrous, Water Injection, Intercooler Sprayer etc.

Drag racing launch control (secondary rev limit used during
launch)
Free software upgrades
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:29 PM   #21
ride5000
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you are a cut and paste madman.
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
you are a cut and paste madman.
Denial is the first stage. He'll get through it eventually.
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Old 07-22-2006, 06:55 PM   #23
THE-95-STi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaniegenie
+1,000

came from a utec also.
???? . . .
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Old 07-22-2006, 11:38 PM   #24
chuckdez
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Well if they are all tuned identical the power would be the same.

The difference between the units is how they get you to the proper tune.
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Old 07-24-2006, 08:02 AM   #25
ride5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckdez
Well if they are all tuned identical the power would be the same.

SOMEBODY gets it!
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