Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday May 5, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > AccessPort

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2006, 11:34 AM   #1
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default Utec Or Ap ?

Im completely in the middle between these 2. I like the AP because of its simplicity and the maps. I like that it can be protuned aswell. UTEC I like that its got the maps 2, but its a piggy back.

What would you guys suggest? I hope to be doing a Deadbolt Monster Ported TD05H 16G turbo upgrade in the future and im thinking about EM now. And is it easy to protune an AP ?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 07-17-2006, 03:53 PM   #2
mug23
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97841
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Back to Boston
Vehicle:
2005 STI Race Ready
OBP/Orange

Default

I would recommend Cobb's AP and Protune. With AP, you can always switch maps and revert back to stock if needed.

Also, piggyback ecu's are a little bit slower than a reflash. Plus, you have many people that have experience with Cobb here.
mug23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 04:33 PM   #3
ADR 04STi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 51918
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UpState,NY
Vehicle:
2015 Audi S3
Daytona Gray

Impreza WRX STi

ADR 04STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 04:46 PM   #4
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

I'd recommend AP as well over the UTEC. First I didn't have to pull up the carpet and install it on top of the ECU, just 2 connectors under the dash to change the base map. Second, I don't like that with a piggy back you are tricking the computer. And from what I've read, to use bigger injectors they use MAF offset which is a bad way to do it.

The AP is just so much easier to install and use. Plus, depending on your driving style, many people have seen higher fuel mileage with stage 1 & 2 on the AP. Including me, I've seen 2-3mpg higher average with mostly city driving. I haven't heard similiar claims from the UTEC users.
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 05:15 PM   #5
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

Yeah these are all the upsides and downsides that are in my head aswell. I was going to ask once though, how would I "Revert to stock" if I upgrade my turbo and what not ? Returning to stock wont really be an option then will it ? I will use it before I get my turbo upgrade, just to get a few extra ponies outta the stocker, but later it wont matter if i put it back to stock mode, or am I totally off ?
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 05:35 PM   #6
AugustusMaximus
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63060
Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New York
Vehicle:
0005 RS, 92X
silver, red

Default

Both can run many different maps, just make sure one of them is "stock" if you want to go back. UTEC is releasing new software that is supposed to be incredible so I am waiting a week or 2 myself to see which is better.
AugustusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 05:43 PM   #7
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

I know UTEC has map selection,
But still it is a piggy back. I've always heard to stay away from them because I was told they're not as smooth when the ECU and the UTEC communicate. I think I will be sticking to the AP personally. I found a pretty good tuner (from what people tell me) close by so I'll give him a whirl with an AP.

Thanks guys.
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 10:16 PM   #8
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

Whats the difference between basemaps and realtime maps though? I've read through the owners guide and I dont completely understand about the difference between them, can someone clarify for me ?
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 11:09 PM   #9
serious_awesomeness
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 79982
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
95 L STI
white

Default

yeah, i know what your going through. ive been toying with the idea of ap vs utec. going with the ap by the end of aug.
serious_awesomeness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 05:49 AM   #10
rsexton
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 89771
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 STi PDX Protune
Crystal Gray Metallic

Default

Base maps stay on your ECU at all times, even when you do a ECU reset by unpluggin the battery. They also take longer to load onto the ECU and take up ECU memory. You can only Flash a base map 99 times I believe before the ECU's memory is full. At that pont, you can no longer reflash anymore base maps. You always have to have a base map flashed, even if it is COBB's "Stock" map.

In comarison, Real Time maps are maps that are flashed "on top" of the Base map. These are temporary, meaning that if you do a ECU reset by unplugging the battery, you lose it from the ECU's memory. This is not a big deal, as in my own experience, the Real Time maps take about 1 minute or so to load onto the ECU. So it really is no big deal to flash a Real Time map at the track or whatever.

I believe you can switch on the fly with the Utec, but with the AP, you must turn the car off to do so. In my book, it is not that much of a hassle when you look at the benefits.

From what I hear (And this could be totally inaccurate, and if it is, I want someone to speak up and further educate me), the Utec works as a closed-loop system. The AP is open loop, just like the stock ECU works. Open-loop systems are constantly doing diagnostics while the car is running, whether it is at idle or WOT. Closed loop systems do not. This means, if your motor experiences knock, the open loop system will recognize it and correct it before knock becomes DETONATION. Closed-loop systems do not recognize knock, and therefore cannot fix the problem, at least from what i have read and discussions I have had with people.

I am currently running the AP, and was protuned by Tim at PDX tuning. I am thrilled with the performance I gained over stage 2 (about 25 hp and 50-60 ft-lbs of torque gained at the wheels!). Stage 2 was a big step up from stock, and the protune- if done correctly- is an even bigger step up from stage 2. Cobb also has dropped the price of their Street Tuner software to $199.99. This is incredible from what I hear and easy to use.

So, I am sure you will hear good and bad abouit both setups, but as for me, I am glad I chose the AP, and will be using it from now on, especially as long as Tim is my tuner!
I hope this helps anyone. If not, then I will just shut up... haha.
rsexton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 10:46 AM   #11
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsexton
From what I hear (And this could be totally inaccurate, and if it is, I want someone to speak up and further educate me), the Utec works as a closed-loop system. The AP is open loop, just like the stock ECU works. Open-loop systems are constantly doing diagnostics while the car is running, whether it is at idle or WOT. Closed loop systems do not. This means, if your motor experiences knock, the open loop system will recognize it and correct it before knock becomes DETONATION. Closed-loop systems do not recognize knock, and therefore cannot fix the problem, at least from what i have read and discussions I have had with people.
Closed loop simply means that the system in question uses feedback from sensor(s) in order to tell if a particular goal was met and then make adjustments to do so. Open loop means there is no feedback telling the ECU whether the goal was met or not. The factory ECU has both closed loop (CL) and open loop systems (OL). Most of the time, when talking about OL and CL, people are discussing fueling, in which both are seen in our cars. Closed loop is used during lower loads/throttle where the ECU uses feedback from the o2 sensors to maintain a 14.7 AFR for emissions and economy. When loads/throttle met a particular threshold, along with other conditions, the ecu will switch to open loop. In open loop, the ECU looks at airflow from your MAF sensor to determine the amount of fuel to inject, but it has no idea if you are hitting the target AFR or not (which is why it is important to have a wideband o2 for tuning).

Last edited by Tea cups; 07-18-2006 at 12:48 PM.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 12:05 PM   #12
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups
Closed loop simply means that the system in question uses feedback from sensor(s) in order to tell if a particular goal was met and then make adjustments to do so. Open loop means there is no feedback telling the ECU whether the goal was met or not. The factory ECU has both closed loop (CL) and open loop systems (OL). Most of the time, when talking about OL and CL, people are discussing fueling, in which both are seen in our cars. Closed loop is used during lower loads/throttle where the ECU uses feedback from the o2 sensors to maintain a 14.7 AFR for emissions and economy.

When loads/throttle met a particular threshold, along with other conditions, the ecu will switch to open loop. In open loop, the ECU looks at airflow from your MAF sensor to determine the amount of fuel to inject, but it has no idea if you are hitting the target AFR or not (which is why it is important to have a wideband o2 for tuning).
There, fixed for you as it looked like you got confused.

One thing about the AP is that it can change the point of transition from Closed loop to open loop. This makes even daily driving alot better as the engine responds much smoother on the 04-05 WRXs. The UTEC uses some kind of trickery to get the ECU to change to Open loop sooner so it take control of the engine.

The big difference I guess is, do you need to change maps often? The Real time maps on the AP can be changed very fast (in my experience, about 10 seconds) And you can have a real time map for race fuel or such. If you need to be able to change it while driving, the UTEC would be a better option.
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 12:48 PM   #13
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192
There, fixed for you as it looked like you got confused.

One thing about the AP is that it can change the point of transition from Closed loop to open loop. This makes even daily driving alot better as the engine responds much smoother on the 04-05 WRXs. The UTEC uses some kind of trickery to get the ECU to change to Open loop sooner so it take control of the engine.

The big difference I guess is, do you need to change maps often? The Real time maps on the AP can be changed very fast (in my experience, about 10 seconds) And you can have a real time map for race fuel or such. If you need to be able to change it while driving, the UTEC would be a better option.
Whoops, just woke up. My bad.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 08:27 AM   #14
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

Great info guys thanks alot. I know that the car has to be turned off to switch maps with the AP, and that doesn't bother me at all, when I said on the fly I meant able to switch from inside the car. But let me get something straight, the AP will have to have a Base map uploaded , and the rest I can run real time correct ?

Another question I had is about octane of gas and the AP. When Im running the stage 1 map (for day to day driving) I see its required to have 91 octane gas, can I run 94 octane on this map ? I can always tank up with 94 but I dont always want to be pushing heavy boost (later I will get a protune for at least 2 different boost levels , high and low) but im just wondering if the maps specified for 91 will be ok with 94.

I think in the end after I do my TD05 swap, I'll have a low boost map for 91, a mid boost map for 94 and then a high boost map for 100 or C16 or some other race fuel. What do you guys think ?
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 09:37 AM   #15
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin4457
Great info guys thanks alot. I know that the car has to be turned off to switch maps with the AP, and that doesn't bother me at all, when I said on the fly I meant able to switch from inside the car. But let me get something straight, the AP will have to have a Base map uploaded , and the rest I can run real time correct ?

Another question I had is about octane of gas and the AP. When Im running the stage 1 map (for day to day driving) I see its required to have 91 octane gas, can I run 94 octane on this map ? I can always tank up with 94 but I dont always want to be pushing heavy boost (later I will get a protune for at least 2 different boost levels , high and low) but im just wondering if the maps specified for 91 will be ok with 94.

I think in the end after I do my TD05 swap, I'll have a low boost map for 91, a mid boost map for 94 and then a high boost map for 100 or C16 or some other race fuel. What do you guys think ?
The target boost for the Cobb 91 octane and 93 octane maps are identical. The 93 octane map runs more base timing and slightly leaner AFRs at high load/high rpm. You won't have any problem running 94 octane on a 91 map, but you might as well run the 93 map, unless your car is very prone to detonation.

You can have one real-time map loaded at time.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 11:27 AM   #16
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups
The target boost for the Cobb 91 octane and 93 octane maps are identical. The 93 octane map runs more base timing and slightly leaner AFRs at high load/high rpm. You won't have any problem running 94 octane on a 91 map, but you might as well run the 93 map, unless your car is very prone to detonation.

You can have one real-time map loaded at time.
Okay I thought it wouldn't have a problem. But isn't more base timing more demanding of the engine? Im basically thinking to run the 91 map they give just to conserve my motor, but if its not a huge difference then meh..

As far as u said with the real time maps, so i can only have one loaded at a time, so if im switching maps, im in essence loading a new one in each time correct ?

If im off could someone explain to me in detail the base map / real time maps and how it works to switch and use the AP ? Thanks in advance.
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 12:41 PM   #17
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin4457
Okay I thought it wouldn't have a problem. But isn't more base timing more demanding of the engine? Im basically thinking to run the 91 map they give just to conserve my motor, but if its not a huge difference then meh..

As far as u said with the real time maps, so i can only have one loaded at a time, so if im switching maps, im in essence loading a new one in each time correct ?

If im off could someone explain to me in detail the base map / real time maps and how it works to switch and use the AP ? Thanks in advance.
Unless you have detonation problems, you are not going to be "conserving" the motor by running the 91 octane map. For you to have detonation problems with 94 octane on the 93 map would most likely mean there was something mechanical wrong with your car (vacuum leak, bad MAF sensor, etc), or the 94 is really crappy gas (which I doubt if it is Sunoco). If that detonation problem existed, then you would want to get it fixed before any kind of custom tune. If you have a laptop I would recommend getting the free Ecuexplorer logger (which you can use with your AP cable) and log your advance multiplier. Log with the 93 map with the 94 octane. If you advance mutliplier is pegged at 16 all the time, then your car is happy and running full correction advance and you aren't experiencing any meaningful detonation.

Your ECU from the factory has ROM and RAM. The ROM area contains all the programming logic for the operation of your motor and tuning data. All this data can be changed by flashing, which is what the AP does when it loads a base map or when your dealer flashed a new revision update from Subaru. The RAM portion is for the temporary storage of values. This section gets erased when the ECU is reset. The ECU uses this area to store things like learned long-term fuel trims, knock learning, current advance multiplier, and other current sensor data. Cobb stores the real-time map in an portion of the RAM unused by Subaru. Cobb changes the programming logic in ROM (base map) so that the ECU first checks to see if there are real-time values in RAM for particular tuning parameters and if so, then to use those instead of the values in the ROM. If there are no real-time values, then the ECU is instructed to use the values in ROM. For example, when the ECU needs to look up target boost, with Cobb, the instructions tell it to look in RAM first in a location specified by Cobb. If it finds the boost values there (a real-time map), then it uses them. If nothing is there, then it uses the boost values in ROM (base map).

Not every parameter is used by Cobb in the real-time map (such as closed loop stuff), so that is why it is important to run a base map that is closest to your mods. Only one real-time map can be loaded at a time. If you want to change it, you get out your AP, hook it up and change maps. Because it is in RAM, it loads fast. If your battery is disconnected or you reset the ECU, then the real-time map will be lost and will have to be reloaded.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 01:13 PM   #18
STix66
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 104433
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
2016 Mercedes - GLE
past cars-06 STI /13 WRX

Default

AP

Lock Thread!
STix66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 04:18 PM   #19
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

Much thanks to you Tea Cups for all of the information. I understand how the AP works now, timing advancements and things like that still mystify me, but i wont get into that now.

So later for example, when I get my TD05 upgrade in, I should upload one base map that is set for those mods (for example my low boost map) into the ROM of the ECU. Then, when I take it to the track or want to push it harder on the streets, I upload my "mid" boost map and then high if needed as real time maps correct ?
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 04:56 PM   #20
05EJ25
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 93133
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Peekskill, New York
Vehicle:
87 Foxbody
red

Default

From what I hear though Utec doesn't have the ability to control dual stage injectors. Cobb ftw!
05EJ25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 05:06 PM   #21
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin4457
Much thanks to you Tea Cups for all of the information. I understand how the AP works now, timing advancements and things like that still mystify me, but i wont get into that now.

So later for example, when I get my TD05 upgrade in, I should upload one base map that is set for those mods (for example my low boost map) into the ROM of the ECU. Then, when I take it to the track or want to push it harder on the streets, I upload my "mid" boost map and then high if needed as real time maps correct ?
That would work.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 04:20 PM   #22
Assassin4457
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96773
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: GTA, Ontario Canada.
Vehicle:
04 WRX, RIP GC8
Black

Default

Awesome. So basically its not "switching" maps, its doing a quick upload everytime correct ?
Assassin4457 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2006, 02:24 AM   #23
Bbasso
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66235
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: South Carolina !
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
Silver

Default

<--- Very happy with AP.
simple as could be.
Bbasso is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
utec or ap kaos5000 UTEC 1 09-11-2006 11:41 AM
WTB: UTEC or AP east TN, norht GA, se OH matt_thatsme Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 2 07-09-2006 04:41 PM
04 STI - UTEC or AP? AugustusMaximus Engine Management & Tuning 8 05-14-2006 02:38 PM
UTEC or AP dj_booduh UTEC 8 03-12-2006 11:55 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.