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Old 07-18-2006, 12:55 PM   #1
Tea cups
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Default Ecutek dyno tuning

As a tuner is doing a custom Ecutek dyno tune, do they have to shut the car off each time they want to make a change? I know wiith a Protune, the tuner can make changes to the realtime map with the motor running and get it to where he wants it and when finished he can transfer this to a base map. Just wondering how Ecutek does it. If they have to shut the car each time to make a change, it would seem that an Ecutek tune would take much longer and not be as versatile (like holding a cell on a load bearing dyno and making changes to see the effect on power output).
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:37 PM   #2
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the 02/03 wrx (eg af423)will support live tuning via deltadash, so the tuner can change wdc, timing, boost, fuel etc in percent changes, to speed up tuning, but then usually those tweaks are transferred to the map and then flashed to the car with the flash tool and with the car switched off to make them permanent. On 04+ the map chanes are done and flashed to the car using the flash tool when it's off with no live tuning support.
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups
As a tuner is doing a custom Ecutek dyno tune, do they have to shut the car off each time they want to make a change? I know wiith a Protune, the tuner can make changes to the realtime map with the motor running and get it to where he wants it and when finished he can transfer this to a base map. Just wondering how Ecutek does it. If they have to shut the car each time to make a change, it would seem that an Ecutek tune would take much longer and not be as versatile (like holding a cell on a load bearing dyno and making changes to see the effect on power output).
Edit, see next post...
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups
As a tuner is doing a custom Ecutek dyno tune, do they have to shut the car off each time they want to make a change? I know wiith a Protune, the tuner can make changes to the realtime map with the motor running and get it to where he wants it and when finished he can transfer this to a base map. Just wondering how Ecutek does it. If they have to shut the car each time to make a change, it would seem that an Ecutek tune would take much longer and not be as versatile (like holding a cell on a load bearing dyno and making changes to see the effect on power output).
You are correct, it is an old school way of tuning, but it does have the benefit of keeping the car cooler on the dyno especially in hot areas around the country. If you have a tuner that is very familiar with EcuTeK Tuning, most tunes can be completed in about 1-2 hours. Rotated mounts usually take about 3-4 hours, depending on the turbo kit.

With live tuning, the tuning will take about the same amount of time in the end. There are different styles to tuning and if your tuner knows how to adapt to the various ways of tuning, then a tune will take the nearly the same amount of time in both cases.

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Crawford Performance / I-Speed USA
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:51 PM   #5
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Why would you want to keep the car cooler between runs for anything other than a dyno queen? If you are trying to make numbers, that's great. If you are trying to have a good, reliable tune that will stand up to the abuse of street driving, it's a horrible idea.
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Old 07-20-2006, 05:31 PM   #6
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Tea Cups, the shutdown is needed for flashing the changes to the ECU. EcuTek (post 04MY) does not support live tuning. So, make a change, flash, dyno/log, make a change, flash, etc... you'd be doing the same thing with OpenECU tools.
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Old 07-20-2006, 05:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subieworx
Why would you want to keep the car cooler between runs for anything other than a dyno queen? If you are trying to make numbers, that's great. If you are trying to have a good, reliable tune that will stand up to the abuse of street driving, it's a horrible idea.

Running a car on a dyno is in no way comparable to running it on the street in the aspect that there is no way to duplicate the airflow over radiator and intercooler on the dyno. Fans help...but cars get alot hotter on a dyno that they will on the street.
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Old 07-20-2006, 05:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98
Tea Cups, the shutdown is needed for flashing the changes to the ECU. EcuTek (post 04MY) does not support live tuning. So, make a change, flash, dyno/log, make a change, flash, etc... you'd be doing the same thing with OpenECU tools.
Yeah, that's what I figured. It just seems that a tuner would prefer the Protuner software as it would seem to be way easier and faster to get a good tune, especially for unusual combinations or those that stray far from the typical "stage" mods.
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Running a car on a dyno is in no way comparable to running it on the street in the aspect that there is no way to duplicate the airflow over radiator and intercooler on the dyno. Fans help...but cars get alot hotter on a dyno that they will on the street.
Agreed. But if you can create a good powerful tune on a dyno you will be set for the street.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subieworx
Agreed. But if you can create a good powerful tune on a dyno you will be set for the street.
Not necesseraly true. I've seen cars that were tuned exclusively on the dyno that had issues with the higher load gears on the street. After the tuner took some time to redo the dyno tune and then take it out on the street the reliability of the tuned came back. In the end it really depends on the type of dyno you have at your disposal. This is why tuners that know how to use a DynoDynamics dyno tend to have better results with dyno only tunes rather then dyno/road tunes. That is the only dyno that can closely mimic the load characteristics of a road. Of course I think anyone getting dyno tuned should take the car out afterwards and do some serious road testing of that tune. Fine tuning on the road is really the key to a well-rounded tune.
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Old 07-21-2006, 02:08 AM   #11
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XS Engineering has a DynoDynamics, and they tuned my ECUtek . Best tune I found so far.
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:03 PM   #12
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Also you need to let the car cool down after a pull as coolant temp and IAT rises dramatically on a dyno compared to the street, especially in hot summer weather, so to keep your pulls consistent you need to do them with those numbers as close as possible, otherwise you wont know which way is up!
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Old 07-23-2006, 05:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackRex
XS Engineering has a DynoDynamics, and they tuned my ECUtek . Best tune I found so far.
Hope your car lives...
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by canosardines
Hope your car lives...

+12345 Agreed.
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Old 07-26-2006, 01:35 AM   #15
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Hi Bills, I have a few other reasons I am fine with ECUTek tuning, even on load bearing dynos. These are personal reasons but I am sure they are understandable. First and foremost, I tune a lot of load based live tuning with Autronic ECUs on many cars. It is a joy. But I enjoy using ECUTek 2nd over any other system, including any standalone. Even with the live tuning systems, I use pulls in the end.

1:Live load based tuning is great for driveability and low load tuning for cars, but cars with limited cooling should not be subjected to load based tuning at max torque and high load cells. And ALL cars have limited cooling in my opinion. The only exception is when the dyno is capable of using external cooling such as a marine racing application (think: huge pump and hoses next to a river). Most engines, even those lacking a thermostat and having a large radiator cannot handle the heat loading created by load based tuning for high load cells. Even when the motor can handle it it can literally create so much heat under the car it becomes a safety issue. I have melted bumpers and exhaust hoses under even moderate loads. I would guess a car could catch fire under heavy load based tuning quite easily. I must admit to having tried it a bit, you have to be fast and get in and out of the cell quickly, too quickly for comfort. The pull method is safer in this regard.

2:Even systems with live tuning capabilities rarely have the capability of knowing exactly where you are in the map. I don't even mean which cell you are in. I mean exactly which cells and how much of them are being used for interpolations. The exceptions to this are the Haltech, Motec, Autronic, and a handfull of other nice systems. I know nothing about the COBB, but have seen many systems that don't provide an intuitive way of knowing when you are using only the discrete cell indicated by the map trace/datalog.

3: When waiting for a map to load, I have a chance to review the different dyno screens and match the torque to the afrs or boost or whatever. It gives me a chance to think and review the previous pull and my decisions in changing things. It also can mean a chance to look at the straps holding the car down, or touch the intercooler to check how hot it got, or go pee etc. Now that the ECUs can flash in under 15 seconds it really seems like a short while between pulls. I find myself waiting more for cooldown to catch up.

4: With ECUTEK, I still have the capability of holding loads in individual cells and making changes to the map to accommodate those heavily held load points based on some wonderfull feedback tools(proprietary).

My dyno booth often reaches 105 degrees and I load the cars as if they were climbing a nice hill often during tuning as well just to ensure a nice safe tune in all conditions.
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Old 07-26-2006, 02:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX Harvey
Hi Bills, I have a few other reasons I am fine with ECUTek tuning, even on load bearing dynos. These are personal reasons but I am sure they are understandable. First and foremost, I tune a lot of load based live tuning with Autronic ECUs on many cars. It is a joy. But I enjoy using ECUTek 2nd over any other system, including any standalone. Even with the live tuning systems, I use pulls in the end.

1:Live load based tuning is great for driveability and low load tuning for cars, but cars with limited cooling should not be subjected to load based tuning at max torque and high load cells. And ALL cars have limited cooling in my opinion. The only exception is when the dyno is capable of using external cooling such as a marine racing application (think: huge pump and hoses next to a river). Most engines, even those lacking a thermostat and having a large radiator cannot handle the heat loading created by load based tuning for high load cells. Even when the motor can handle it it can literally create so much heat under the car it becomes a safety issue. I have melted bumpers and exhaust hoses under even moderate loads. I would guess a car could catch fire under heavy load based tuning quite easily. I must admit to having tried it a bit, you have to be fast and get in and out of the cell quickly, too quickly for comfort. The pull method is safer in this regard.

2:Even systems with live tuning capabilities rarely have the capability of knowing exactly where you are in the map. I don't even mean which cell you are in. I mean exactly which cells and how much of them are being used for interpolations. The exceptions to this are the Haltech, Motec, Autronic, and a handfull of other nice systems. I know nothing about the COBB, but have seen many systems that don't provide an intuitive way of knowing when you are using only the discrete cell indicated by the map trace/datalog.

3: When waiting for a map to load, I have a chance to review the different dyno screens and match the torque to the afrs or boost or whatever. It gives me a chance to think and review the previous pull and my decisions in changing things. It also can mean a chance to look at the straps holding the car down, or touch the intercooler to check how hot it got, or go pee etc. Now that the ECUs can flash in under 15 seconds it really seems like a short while between pulls. I find myself waiting more for cooldown to catch up.

4: With ECUTEK, I still have the capability of holding loads in individual cells and making changes to the map to accommodate those heavily held load points based on some wonderfull feedback tools(proprietary).

My dyno booth often reaches 105 degrees and I load the cars as if they were climbing a nice hill often during tuning as well just to ensure a nice safe tune in all conditions.
Makes sense. It didn't seem like Protuners were getting the tunes done any faster as they typically estimate 2-3 hour dyno tune for a stage 2, same as Ecutek.
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Old 08-20-2006, 01:17 PM   #17
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My Ecutek tuner said that he probably wont use a dyno when he tunes my car. Says he can do the whole thing in an hour on the street.
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Old 09-07-2006, 02:56 PM   #18
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nice post, harvey. it is clear that you have experience with dyno tuning.

ken
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Old 09-07-2006, 04:30 PM   #19
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Live tuning certainly isn't a *bad* thing. Sure you don't want to beat the crap out of your car with WOT run after WOT run, but without live tuning you are forced to reflash for almost any change. Perhaps some people only tune at WOT and let the car run like crap under part throttle, idle, and cruise. It's frustrating having to stop the car, climb under the dash, hook up the connector(s), etc. every time you want to change every little thing. This is especially frustrating for road tuning. I suppose you can wire up a switch for the test connector, etc, but it is still a huge pain.

The idle, ignition, and WGDC adjustment that is allowed on pretty much any reflash is really kinda crude.

Having live tuning doesn't force you to not cool your car down. Of course anyone without the capability is going to downplay it. I can't do it with my openecu stuff, but I'd still much prefer to have it than not.

There are definite limitations on the logging capability of the factory ECU, but you can use your brain and look at the log file to see where you are interpolating. I'm pretty certain the factory ECU does linear interpolation on all available axes. If you have a load of 4.4 in your log and the map has load columns of 4.0 and 5.0, you should be able to figure out what is going on and what to change.

I consider the speed of logging a bigger limitation. 150ms or so on the 2.5L turbo ECU is as good as it gets due to the interface. I'd love to be able to poll at 20-50ms.
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