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Old 07-23-2006, 11:21 PM   #1
nomorem3
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Default Opinions wanted on dual nozzle setup..

I'm getting V8 RA Spec-C heads installed onto my 05' STi this week, along with the off-the-shelf Wiseco oversized pistons. With this combo i should be seeing a 9:1 CR (49-50cc V8 heads w/ 8.5:1 pistons).

So now you can see my reason for wanting a WI setup, not too many people are going to be able to afford race gas every fill-up. With this high comp and relatively high boost setup you're going to need race gas or at least WI, haha.

So my plan was to run a small (0.4mm?) nozzle pre-intercooler, probably around 4-6" away from the end-tank in the piping. The other in the IC piping just before the TB with a large (0.8mm-1mm) nozzle.

I wanted the Aquamist 2c kit because of the aftermarket EMS control, good timing with the UTEC's new firmware finally out. But the 2s or 2d, the one that goes by w/f mixture, kits seem to be the safer route. Does anyone happen to know how the new UTEC 3D spare solenoid control would work with the 2c kit? or should I get the latter?

Also, running both nozzles setup this way (pre-IC & pre-TB) should net some nice results if tuned correctly right? Is it manditory to get an accumulator to get the pressure up?

How long do you think the windshield washer fluid reservoir would last with this setup? As long as it lasts more than 1+ tanks, i'd rather keep it as that instead of getting the Spec-C 12L tank and adding all the extra weight i've been trying to take out.

OT - Can you mix Nitromethane with water? would that be better than meth/water?

Addition: With this 9:1 compression ratio and boost, would 50/50 (Meth/Water) be sufficient? or should I be looking into a more octane boosting mix? and what would that be?
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Last edited by nomorem3; 07-23-2006 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:12 AM   #2
hippy
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The compression ratio being higher isn't the worste thing in the world. Ie- You will get more power out of a given amount of boost then if ya had a lower compression ratio(course you knew this already). The aquamist kits are nice. No, you do not need the accumulator the get the boost up. As far as I know, it's like a water hammer arrestor and just makes it so when the pump is pumping, the pressure in the tubing doesn't fluctuate so much.

Aquamist systems are a nice choice. They work really well, and imo they're designed with every detail in mind. You might wanna think about just using a simple 2 stage setup though. It would be really easy to tune, much less expensive, and probably give around the same results.

On the note of more octane and 50/50...., the only thing I'd be afraid of is part throttle settings since you can't control them so much with a utec. You might have to change the timing in the 0% column to avoid knock, which could hurt your fuel economy. If you're not worried about that, then no biggy. If you are, a reflash might be a really good idea.

peace
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:16 AM   #3
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You would be better servered to put both nozzles after the intercooler, you get more effective detonation supression on that side of the intercooler.

Dual nozzles are good in that it cuts the likely hood of total spray failure almost in half.

Accumulators are not manditory but in my opinion desirable if they are available for your setup.(ie room for them etc.)

My water spray lasted about 2 tanks of gas / liter of water/alcohol mix. although I did not have a high spray rate at the time (4 gal/hr --- 240 cc/min) triggered at 10 psi.

Quote:
OT - Can you mix Nitromethane with water? would that be better than meth/water?
It's been tried but not very useful. The Nitro will not mix with the water and you can only dissolve a small amount of it in the alcohol. It would tend to promote detonation while the purpose of the WI is to reduce detonation, so it is not nearly as effective as nitrous for that added little edge. Nitro is very expensive and tough to ship so there are several down sides to it.


50/50 mix is suitable for just about any hp you're likely to every produce.

Larry
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:42 PM   #4
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Yes, you can control the aqamist hsv with the utecs spare solenoid(I do this). The only problem is that it's much harder to set up the flow with the utec then if you got one of the systems which monitored maf voltage or something.....

In case you're lookin for parts an what not, I've been lookin around a bit, and here are some links.

Nice assortment of "push in" fittings and hose


^one of products from link above....stainles... 1/8 and larger tube input diameters, 1/8 and larger npt.......nice stuff(reminds me of aquamist fittings). They also have composit fittings and nylon hose for about 10c a foot.

Here's a place with more fittings. The brass/push in ones look like the ones coolingmist is selling.

Even more fittings.... It hink the t fitting coolingmist uses can be gotten from this place, along with a lot of other stuff. Their(coolingmist) fittings are kinda big imo though. I'd think 1/8th inch with 1/8 inch tubing would be better for function.

Solenoid&Sensor Manufacturers

Interesting looking pump, wonder how much it costs... It should be able to support two m4 nozzles at 80psi or an m3+m4 nozzle at 100psi(about 440cc/min either way). This should be enough for a car which is running 800cc injectors, unless you want to run more then a 14% injection to fuel system ratio while your fuel system is at full flow(which might never happens). What I'm trying to say is, I thought this pump might not flow enough, but it seems like it would flow enough for most setups.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 07-27-2006 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 07-27-2006, 03:21 PM   #5
nomorem3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Yes, you can control the aqamist hsv with the utecs spare solenoid(I do this). The only problem is that it's much harder to set up the flow with the utec then if you got one of the systems which monitored maf voltage or something.....

Yeah, I was looking into the Aquamist 2c kit becaue it'd be quite convenient with the new UTEC firmware (3D Spare Solenoid Control). It'll be much easier to setup compared to the "current" or older firmware.

The 2d & other kits are very appealing because of the controllers that, like you said, monitor MAF and/or Fuel Injector Pulse. I would think the water:fuel type of systems would be probably the best and easiest to setup, especially since you're ultimately (on avg. i suppose) trying to get the correct water to fuel mixture (10-15%).
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Old 07-27-2006, 04:29 PM   #6
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2c is nice for the utec, because the duty cycles can be adjusted the same way as the rest of the utec settings making flow very predictable. This isn't to say that tuning is easy, because you don't know how much fuel or water is really going in at a given duty cycle unless you do some serious testing.

The fia2 looks really sweet, assuming it does what they claim(I tend to beleive it does, but I've never tested it). If you can actually get a given water/fuel ratio, then all you have to do to tune is adjust the amount of fuel(if you want more or less water at a point). The water will automatically be adjusted. This could make tuning the the injection/fueling much easier. This and a mappable system(like above) definately have advantages over staged systems(at least conceptually).

With a constant flow type kit(simple one or two stage), you will most likely get close to the same flow in a given load site from one day to the next. This would make it easy to tune compared to the 2c. It might not show the best all around gains(the 2c with utec might?), but for the price......

peace

Last edited by hippy; 07-28-2006 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 07-27-2006, 05:07 PM   #7
Richard L
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If you can hold on a bit longer, we have a new Shurflo based kit that may suit you better. It still uses the HSV and direct control via your ECU. If you like the fuel map tracking, you can always copy the fuel map into your WI map. The cost would be lower than using a 2c/DDS3 combination. I include the DDS3 because it gives you some protection when water delivery is interrupted. We rae trying to keep the cost down for the USA users, shipping from UK to USA has risen sharply with oil prices. Pump is shipped from Shurflo USA to our US importer directly.

Here is a proposed schemetic diagram of the system, If you want to know more about the Shurflo pump specifications, I can post more.




Richard

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorem3
Yeah, I was looking into the Aquamist 2c kit becaue it'd be quite convenient with the new UTEC firmware (3D Spare Solenoid Control). It'll be much easier to setup compared to the "current" or older firmware.

The 2d & other kits are very appealing because of the controllers that, like you said, monitor MAF and/or Fuel Injector Pulse. I would think the water:fuel type of systems would be probably the best and easiest to setup, especially since you're ultimately (on avg. i suppose) trying to get the correct water to fuel mixture (10-15%).
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Old 07-27-2006, 05:36 PM   #8
nomorem3
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Nice, very nice...

Please post more info on the Shurflo pump, and what do you estimate the price of this kit to be? Also ETA.
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:25 PM   #9
Richard L
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On the 12V range, Shurflo basically have three motors, 60W, 100W and 150W.
You can see the difference if you put it side by side.

Here is a drawing of the pump motor - motor's part number is on the pump:



Pump head are almost the same execpt three choice of cam angle, 2, 2.5 and 3.0 degrees 100psi+ pump used mainly the 3.0 cam. I have seen a 3.5 deg cam but rarely used. Some with pressure sensitive demand switch and some with internal by-pass. Choice of materials

We intend to use:
- 125psi internal bypass valve
- 3 degreee cam
- Santoprene Diaphragm
- EPDM valves
- No demand switch
- Supply with surge arrestor, holder and clamp.
- 6mm Quick-fit inlet
- 4mm Quick-fit outlet
- 5 port manifold distribution manifold.
- 150W motor (11-227-00)
- Flowrate well beyond 2 litre/min @125psi




This Shurflo set up forms the basis of our new kit . Price is somewhere between 1s and 2d.

Let me know if anyone have more questions. Shurflo proposed to ship the first batch to our US importer by the 20th of August, this year. I will let you know when we have actually received them.


Richard
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Old 07-28-2006, 08:14 AM   #10
BadTrip
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Richard,
Any thoughts towards a group buy?
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Old 07-29-2006, 06:03 AM   #11
nomorem3
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So, back to my original subject...

Do you have any photos of a Dual Nozzle or Dual Injection setup?

Would there be a noticeable delay in "fill time," from the pre-intercooler nozzle spray reaching and mixing with the pre-throttle body spray? and if injection was started in an "early setting," like low boost or low RPM, that "delay" wouldn't affect much in terms of tuning would it? doubt it, but if it does I need to know before I do this, haha.

Also, did you guy's have a primer? is that an option? and does having the reservoir above the water pump act as a good enough "primer?"



Johnny G
Aquamist USA (come on Richard!! lol)
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:36 AM   #12
hippy
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Running the injection closer to the engine will obviously allow the water to get in the cylinders faster. Depending on how far away the sprayer is, I don't really think it would make much of a difference. There could be something inherently wrong with running injection at low boost/rpm areas, because if you can't control the flow very well, or if you have the wrong nozzle, you could end up injecting a really high water/fuel ratio, and that can seriously hurt performance.

If I was to setup a dual stage system, I wouldn't worry about spool so much. I'd have the fist stage kick on at about 8-10psi(post intercooler of quick response) and the second stage kick on later in the rpm range(pre-intercooler to fix heat soak). Another thing to note is that most people woun't need a dual stage system over a single stage, because in many cases they can get the water/fuel ratio they want with 1 nozzle.

Once the fuel system has a wider range of flow(like with big injectors), that would be a better time to use a dual nozzle system since one nozzle can't keep such a close water/fuel ratio with the fuel system having such a wide range of flow. At least that's the way I see it with the m nozzles. Nozzles which flow less(like maybe equivalent to what would be an m1 or m2) would make it easier to run dual stage systems on cars that don't have such big fuel systems, and this might help the water/fuel ratio stay more consistent then a one stage system.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 07-29-2006 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 07-29-2006, 12:46 PM   #13
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I was never a fan of the dual stage setup based on psi. I was thinking the most optimal setup would be that the 2nd stage is RPM based. That means, the first stage comes on with a preset boost pressure, and the 2nd comes on at say, 5500rpm to provide that extra bit at the top (on the condition that the first stage is operating too eg >10psi pressure). That way we can optimise both midrange and top end power without getting too complicated. Aquastealth sell 'rpm pills' which can do exactly this. What do you guys think?

I believe the best way to find the 2nd stage RPM is to plot airflow vs RPM and see where the mid point lies between the first stage activation and peak power.
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Old 07-29-2006, 05:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busky2k
I was never a fan of the dual stage setup based on psi. I was thinking the most optimal setup would be that the 2nd stage is RPM based. That means, the first stage comes on with a preset boost pressure, and the 2nd comes on at say, 5500rpm to provide that extra bit at the top (on the condition that the first stage is operating too eg >10psi pressure). That way we can optimise both midrange and top end power without getting too complicated. Aquastealth sell 'rpm pills' which can do exactly this. What do you guys think?

I believe the best way to find the 2nd stage RPM is to plot airflow vs RPM and see where the mid point lies between the first stage activation and peak power.
I totally agree with that, and that's why I said the second stage would kick in at a later rpm. People with utecs can make these systems work really easily with the spare solenoid ground, and they can even control the flow through the solenoid if they use the spare solenoid map(boost map three). It would also be easy to tune for with a utec.......... An rmp pill would be a good option to turn on the second stage, and it might or might not be good to have it wired to only work when the first stage is on in case the boost pressure isn't made(course this might be a very good thing.

I think the best way to find the second stage rpm is to decide what water/fuel ratio you want or need, and make it happen by picking nozzles, using the first and second stage wisely. Still, it would be hard to make a 2 stage system on a car with 550cc injectors work correctly with the "m" nozzles because they flow a lot compared to the fuel system even at the smallest size(at least what I think is the smallest size, m3..). At least this is true depending on the water/alc to fuel ratio they want to run. If ya wanna run a pretty high water/alc to fuel ratio, a 2 stage system(when hooked up to work well) might help it work more consistently then a 1 stage system.

peace

Ps-Here's the cheapest rpm switch I could find so far... Seems to have all the features needed(adjustability) plus a light to indicate when switch is on.

Last edited by hippy; 07-29-2006 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:08 PM   #15
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So yes we are in agreement. I don't think it would be very hard to draw up a schematic on how to convert a single stage kit to a dual stage using RPM. All we need is a solenoid/relay/RPM switch you mentioned (or UTEC!) + nozzle! I'll chase up to see what Aquastealth's RPM pill is like..

Btw I believe we can get sizes down to M1, so it wouldn't be a problem! To see em, go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and on the search, type "spray nozzle" and then select "High Pressure Spray Nozzles" on the results. Thus by using a combination M1 or M2 nozzles, we can get alot closer to the water ratio we want..
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:39 PM   #16
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One problem with using smaller nozzles is they will clog quicker. I really think that 2 stage kits are better left to cars which are making a lot of power(like 650cc+ injectors and using almost all of them). This is cause I feel that even with a staged system, 1 nozzle can produce a nicewater/alc to fuel ratio as long as the fuel system doesn't have a wide range. Once the fuel system starts spraying a lot more fuel, it's harder to use one nozzle without running a wider range of alc/water to fuel ratios(which can get bad if they aren't within what you want). This is where the second nozzle comes in. O

Once you want to use a nozzle that's bigger then an m6 and you're using a single stage system, that's probably a good sign that a 2 stage system can help keep the water/alc to fuel ratio closer to what you want in a wider range of rpms. I'd personally just go by injector size though, and say that 650 is the smallest size I'd use a dual stage system on. At least that's the way I see it.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 07-29-2006 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Once the fuel system has a wider range of flow(like with big injectors), that would be a better time to use a dual nozzle system since one nozzle can't keep such a close water/fuel ratio with the fuel system having such a wide range of flow. At least that's the way I see it with the m nozzles. Nozzles which flow less(like maybe equivalent to what would be an m1 or m2) would make it easier to run dual stage systems on cars that don't have such big fuel systems, and this might help the water/fuel ratio stay more consistent then a one stage system.

peace

Bosch 1000cc Injectors
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:03 PM   #18
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That's the only problem(imo) with the aquamist system. Even with 2 1mm nozzles, you might not be able to get the flow you want uptop on high hp systems(but maybe you could). On top of that, I'm not sure if their pump(not the shurflow one) can support that kinda flow. The shurflo one can......

peace

Last edited by hippy; 08-01-2006 at 11:04 PM.
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