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Old 07-27-2006, 06:22 PM   #1
Turn in Concepts
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Default 6Gun Racing Ball Joint Extender Pre-Prod GB!!

This is for the Group Buy for initial release of these. 6Gun was kind enough to ask us to start this off, and we were more than happy to help these guys out since we really believe in what they are doing.

Please note - this is a Pre-production group buy, and there are only 20 sets available. We will NOT be holding any, and this is for full payment up front. Our backend system is automated so when you order your paypal account or CC will be charged at the time of your order. We do not have any manual credit card processing (that way we NEVER see a CC number).

When you order please be sure to include in the comments your forum screenname so we can add you to the list. If you don't give us your screenname we'll add you to the list, but we get to make up a nickname for you.

Ok, so when can I expect them? As soon as we get them in, and get them shipped to you. Production is planned to start this weekend. Perhaps Javid can give us a more solid ETA.

**********************************************

The 6 Gun Racing Ball Joint Relocation Kit includes of a 1.5" relocation of the lower ball joint on any Impreza chassis and a 1.5" extension of the steering tie rod end to compensate for bumpsteer.

Q. What does it do for my car?
A. If you lower your Impreza too far the suspension geometry is ruined. On a car with MacPherson struts, the angle of the lower control arm determines what part of the "camber curve" your car uses. The more the car is lowered, the worse the angle of the arm, and the more camber loss you have through body roll. Our kit lowers the outside attachment point of this control arm 1.5", which on a 1.5" lowered car effectively raises your roll center back to where it should be be, and puts your car back on the stock spot of the camber curve. This kit will improve the turn in, as well as mid corner grip of your car, while allowing you to run less static camber. This will also improve braking and acceleration out of the turn.

Q. How much of an effect will this kit have on my camber loss/gain?
A. Through our testing, as well as suspension geometry modeling, we have concluded that on a 1.5" lowered Impreza, through 6 degrees of body roll, you will effectively "gain" 0.75 degrees of camber. On a 3" lowered Impreza, through 4 degrees body roll, you will effectively "gain" a full degree of camber. We used 6 degrees with 1.5" and 4 degrees with 3" as we figured, the more lowered the car, the stiffer the suspension you will use, so the less body roll you will have. If you were to get 6 degrees of body roll with a softer spring with 3" of lowering, our kit will "gain" you over 1.5 degrees of camber.

Q. Are these safe to use on my car?
A. Since these ball joint kits become an integral and very important part of your suspension, we did all due diligence to make sure that the kits would be very safe, and withstand over 6Gs of cornering force/impact. Along with our own testing on the street, as well as at the track, we hired a Professional Engineer (PE) to perform a Finite Element Analysis on this kit to find and eliminate any and all weak spots. After a few tweaks to our initial prototypes, we are bringing a product to market that has passed all tests and has an approval from a PE.


Q. Why should I purchase your kit instead of just an extended ball joint?
A. Unlike other kits on the market today, our ball joint relocation kit accounts for both the relocation of the lower ball joint on the control arm, as well as the proper compensation to the steering tie rod end to eliminate the bumpsteer that gets added through the relocation. Through our suspension geometry modeling we were able to all but eliminate bumpsteer after the installation of our kit. Through 2.25" of bump, our kit will only cause 0.14 degrees of toe out compared to 0.11 degrees of toe out stock. Lowering just the ball joint 1.5", without any sort of adjustment to the tie rod end, would result in 10 degrees of toe in. Lastly, our kit only relocates your stock ball joint instead of replacing it with an extended and expensive whole ball joint. With our kit, once your ball joint wears out you will be able to purchase another very inexpensive stock ball joint, instead of an expensive special extended one.

Q. I Autocross. What class will the kit put me in?
A. For Autocross, installing our ball joint relocation kit will put you in Street Modified. Unfortunately neither Stock, Street Prepared or Street Touring classes allow modifications to suspension geometry. Unlike an ALK, which relocates suspension points and puts you straight
into Prepared class, our kit adjusts a part of the "moving suspension," which is legal in Street Modified.

Q. What do the kits look like?
A. Check them out here:



Q. Is the install difficult?
A. The install on our ball joint relocation kit is simple. Tools required for the install are: a 14mm and 19mm wrenchs and sockets, Vise Grips, a 3mm allen wrench, and some pliers for the cotter pins. Please Note: TiC will be doing nice pretty instructions as soon as our set arrives

************************************************** ****

How to order -
Go to this link:
http://turninconcepts.com/product_in...roducts_id=123

Shipping -
TiC ships for free in the US. If you are outside the US contact us immediately so we can work out the details.

Teh List -
1) Remowgn
2) TRS
3) Kyle - Is outside the US so we need to discuss your shipping
4) Idkew
5) Hawke W
6) Grippgoat <- Great screenname!!
7) Nojeebs
8) Jrerin
9) TrackDayHookey (AKA. Mr. Enginerd)
10) MZM
11) kaliformula (aka Leisure Suit Larry)
12) Mr. Dodgem in WA
13) MichaelC
14) Bluegrass
15) Hawk30
16) Skubiekid
17) Aspera

That's it. No more in on this. These lucky 17 got the pricebreak.
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Last edited by Turn in Concepts; 08-28-2006 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 07-27-2006, 07:05 PM   #2
whitson01
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wow $400 huh.. why so much?? doesnt look like much..
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Old 07-27-2006, 07:13 PM   #3
Turn in Concepts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitson01
wow $400 huh.. why so much?? doesnt look like much..
I was waiting for this, and it didn't take long.

1) the material being used (400 series stainless) is not going to be cheap. Not expensive, but not cheap either.
2) Believe it or not machining cost for something like this is going to up there a bit since these are small batch, not a bajillion at a time
3) Look up the history in the motorsports forums. The R&D to get this kit made with the correct geometry, FEA, and testing was not cheap. To put it into perspective bringing these out basically cost a T2 race motor + some.
4) Actually, for what they do they are pretty dAng! cheap. Just watch what the motorsports guys do when they see this.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:39 PM   #4
Kenji815
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wow so i guess it was the not so cheap replacement for the zerosports ball joint huh?
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:15 AM   #5
Turn in Concepts
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji815
wow so i guess it was the not so cheap replacement for the zerosports ball joint huh?
I did a quick search of the vendor area, and I cannot find any prices for any zerosports currently, but if my memory serves me correctly they were a little more expensive than these.

1) With the zerosports how are you going to account for the bumpsteer? By extending the outer mount point for the LCA downward without taking bumpsteer into consideration you're going to hurting your handling quite a bit. These kits have been designed with bumpsteer in mind from the very beginning. I have yet to see anyone even attempt the calculations or offer an adjustable tie-rod setting suggestion for the zerosports units. Oh, sure you could pick up the Baer ones, but there you go - more cost. While you're at it, try and figure out what to set them to.

2) if you blow a ball joint with this kit you just replace the ball joint with a new stock one for somewhere around $40. And chances are you can pick one up locally for pretty cheap. With the zerosports you're stuck buying a very expensive replacement unit. If the current state of them for sale in the vendor area is any indication then good luck on finding them (and if you do, how long do you want to wait for them).

This has been discussed in the MS area - look at your longevity costs overall (important when considering who is going to be using these, and what they will be using them for).
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:18 AM   #6
LOLSTi
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dAng! This kit looks great!
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:23 AM   #7
calmnothing
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dAng.....wonder if I can bribe javid and hoppe with a few cases of tequila and scotch for a set of these

Is this the only run that is going to be made? Or will more be available later?

Last edited by calmnothing; 07-28-2006 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:35 AM   #8
2slofouru
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That is interesting, and a good idea. What are you using to drop the tie rod in your picture?
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:41 AM   #9
remowgn
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Just FYI- Paypal is not showing a comment area on their order form, and I couldn't find one in your shopping cart stuff either. Please don't give me a funny nickname....

- John
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Old 07-28-2006, 09:42 AM   #10
kwlsti
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just sent my order in can't wait!

-kyle
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Old 07-28-2006, 09:59 AM   #11
javid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji815
wow so i guess it was the not so cheap replacement for the zerosports ball joint huh?
Depends on how you look at it. The zerosports is ~$300, you will have to get the Baer adjustable tierods which are $160. So the 6gun kit is cheaper; however the real savings comes when you have to replace your ball joint or tierod end. Ball joints may only last a few years for folks that run the car really hard. At that point you would need a $30 pepboys ball joint (with the 6gun kit) or a $300 ball joint if you went the route fo the zerosports kit.
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Old 07-28-2006, 10:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru
That is interesting, and a good idea. What are you using to drop the tie rod in your picture?
Basically a piece of stock that has both the male and female contures of the tierod end on it. Although it looks simple, this piece was actually pretty hard to engineer. We had to meet alot of strict tolerances for fitment, as well as a 'taper lock' contour for the bottom half.
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Old 07-28-2006, 10:28 AM   #13
STi-MAN
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hmmm i've been following this part for some time but i thought it was supposed to be cheaper then the zerosports unit, or at least that was what was talked about earlier. it is a great part tho, just way more then i thought.
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Old 07-28-2006, 10:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru
That is interesting, and a good idea. What are you using to drop the tie rod in your picture?
Also just to make sure, this tie rod extension *is* part of the "kit"

-Tom
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Old 07-28-2006, 11:51 AM   #15
Mykl
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These will eventually go on my car. But I just can't justify another $400 above what I've spent over the last few weeks.

Maybe next season.
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:12 PM   #16
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Well, count me in.

A lot of dough though.
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:03 PM   #17
eVoMotion
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Impreza only? Does not work on 05+ Legacy/Outback?
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:18 PM   #18
Turn in Concepts
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it should work for any modern subaru, but there is a question of wheen clearance with 16" wheels. Hopefully that question will be cleared up soon.
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:20 PM   #19
Kenji815
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Hmm ok i might be confused.. what is really included in the whole kit?
from the picture it looked like only the extender was included.
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:20 PM   #20
eVoMotion
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I offer to test them on our 05 Outback dropped 2+". ;-)
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji815
Hmm ok i might be confused.. what is really included in the whole kit?
from the picture it looked like only the extender was included.


"The 6 Gun Racing Ball Joint Relocation Kit includes of a 1.5" relocation of the lower ball joint on any Impreza chassis and a 1.5" extension of the steering tie rod end to compensate for bumpsteer."

It includes both. I guess we should put up a product shot of both

-Tom
who will work on that tonight
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts
I was waiting for this, and it didn't take long.
I believe the reason people are a bit disgruntled about the price is because of this post made by Tom a couple months ago in the suspension forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
...we at Trackmonkey Racing are currently developing a US built part for this that will be tremendously cheaper then the alternative, built here in the US, and tested at the Georgia Tech Lab by Daytona Prototype Engineers to make sure that it is stronger then the OEM equivelent.

-Tom
People (myself included) latched onto that quote, crossed our fingers, and waited. Turns out it was more expensive than originally estimated. Things change, I understand. I'm just posting up that quote as an explanation about why there's some negative feedback on the pricing.

Still interested, but it's definitely pricier than I expected.

FWIW, the original post is here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=balljoint

_Jeff
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:54 PM   #23
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Ordered.

FYI, the comment area is at the first part of checkout on TiC's site, not in paypal.

-Mike
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Old 07-28-2006, 02:22 PM   #24
trhoppe
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Yup, we originally thought they would be tremendously cheaper.

As it sits right now, they are $90, so a little over 20% cheaper

We are using top quality materials and the precision with which we are making these pieces, makes them more expensive then originally thought

-Tom

Last edited by trhoppe; 07-28-2006 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:30 PM   #25
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I'd be all over these if they wouldn't bump me outta my solo2 class If I was in SM you can bet I'd be on this list.
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