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Old 07-28-2006, 02:46 PM   #1
hippy
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Default The Ultimate DIY Water/Alc Injection Thread

Hey all, I'm not really sure what this is gonna turn into, but I figured it wouldn't be bad to start a thread where people could get info on where to get parts to make water/alc injection systems, and concepts on how to use them. If you have any info that you think might help someone use or build a water/alc injection kit, or any questions about the info posted, speak up. Also note that I'm no expert, and I know it goes without saying, but use your own judgment to decide what is right for you, cause I'm not gonna pay for a new engine(or whatever). It would also be nice if people could make sure that what I post has merit, cause I'm not lookin to mislead anyone. <disclaimer over>

Concept
A water injection kit is a hose with a nozzle at the end that usually gets its flow from an electrical pump. After thinkin about this, it seems like anyone could make and install their own system with the right info, a little effort, and some cash.

Needed parts for a water injection kit(minimal).
1)pump(pressure capability of 80psi or higher is recommended for most kits, and from what I hear it's good to stay away from pumps that use viton parts when using alc)
2)tank
3)tubing
4)nozzle
5)fittings
6)wires, fuses, relay, on switch(boost, ems, or whatever)

When picking parts, there are lots of things to think about. First concern is that nothing is pushed passed its capability so that it doesn't break because of heat or pressure(or whatever). The next three concerns are more personal choices as to which is first, second, and third, and there is usually a compromise made between the three. They are price, function and quality. Each person has their own opinions when it comes to what's worth what, and that will help them make their own decisions as to which parts are right for them.

Optional parts.....
1)check valve
2)solenoid
3)controller
4)safety device
5)monitoring devices

Optional parts can make an injection system work more consistently, function better, safer, and/or give a piece of mind. Again, it's up to whoever is choosing the parts to decide which options are best for them.

Links - Parts/Info

Installation/Instructions/Info
1)Here's an old school article on making a diy water injection system. Most of the basics are in here...
2)Thoughts on choosing nozzles(post # 90).
3)TurboICE's Turbo-Charger White Pages(all ya need to know about water injection(Background/conceptual info).

Pumps
1)Shurflo Pumps. From what I've heard, it's good to get one that does not have viton parts when using alc.......

Fittings/Tubing/Nozzles(note temperature restrictions when getting tubing and fittings.)
1)HoseXpress. Nice assortment of "push in" fittings along with nylon tubing at a good price.
2)FittingsAndAdapters.com. What seem to be nice fittings at a good price.
3)Sloan Transportation Parts. Nice fittings(click products then brass fittings then "composite body" or "quick connect". The composite ones look nice, but they aren't supposed to be placed too close to really hot things(forget how hot...).
4)McMaster-Carr. Same nozzles many injection companies use in choice of brass, ss, or nickel coated copper(search for nozzle in link, then high pressure spray nozzle)......~$4-7(15% off for 10 or more). Flow ranges of 1-15ghp at 100psi.

Electrical
1)List of Solenoid Manufacturers. Gems(one of the links in the link) makes sensors too(very popular).
2)McMaster-Carr. Solenoids.... pn-7876K58 or 7876k11(same solenoid)-$34.38-temp range 35-200F-(with buna seals..)-max pressure 250psi. Pressure Sensor....pn-346ok15, 3460K11, 3460K13(different pressure adjustment ranges)-$19.80-max temp 250F....
3)Parts Express. All types of electrical equipment at good prices(bosch spdt auto relays for $2.70, solder, wire, wire running kits, shrink wrap, connectors(electrical), fuses, fuse holders,.........)....
4)Summit racing-rpm switch. Costs less then half of what other rpm switches do($41.95), and comes with all features needed including a light to tell ya when switch turns on.
5)Gems Sensors. Sensors(flow(for failsafe), pressure(for keeping pump pressure consistent), level(safety), and what not), solenoids and much much more(good stuff).

Tanks
1)Custom Tanks+
2)Containers+. 1quart-5gallon, $1.43-$10.61....
3)Widemouth 1 gallon jar. 6"D, 10"H, $2.47...
4)Flambeau

Now that we know what parts cost, and what we need, we can make a list of what we need(plus a little extra to make a basic kit) and what it will cost.

Parts/Prices For a Basic Injection Kit
1)Cylinder tank that's easy to strap in and tap from the top(1 gallon) $2.47
2)pump- $70 if you can get 6 people to buy it(from coolingmist)
3)tube- 20 feet of 1/8 inch(more then needed) $2, 4 feet of 1/4 inch $1(if you can get a few people to buy 100 feet at a time)
4)fittings - 1)90deg 1/8" tube to pump thread(maybe 1/4" npt), ( 1)90deg 1/4"tube to pump thread, maybe a few more needed. $4-20 total
5)nozzle- $7
6)Filter-$5
7)Electrical - Relay($3), wire(50-80cents a foot) $20, boost switch ($12 ebay special), fuses+holders(5)
8)Solenoid - $35

That's $190 with a solenoid and what not(using $20 instead of $4 for fittings which should account for 8 extra fittings). This is the basic system with 1 nozzle. Once you get to this point, you can do almost anything you want with it. Certain parts might not be right for everyone, but this is a good base for most.


hippy
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Last edited by hippy; 10-27-2006 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:30 PM   #2
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This is a great idea. It can help those looking for the DIY route.

I realize you just put this together, but I would put the checkvalve/solenoid as more a requirement. It may not be a requirement in terms of what it takes to make the system work, but it can potentially save an engine. I guess its a requirement if the nozzle is installed in an area where there is vacuum (such as manifold) or if the tank is above the nozzle. Make your choice between a solenoid or checkvalve. I have a link from some solenoids that will work.


MCMASTER CAR catalog page 420 has 2 solenoids that are widely used.
7876K58 runs about mid 30s has a sealed body and leads.
7877K6 runs low 20's and has open coil and no leads.

A pump On sale for mid 40's, pretty good deal going on.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w..._357081_357081

Maybe someone can link pictures to those as I need to get back to my shop and dont have time right now.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:38 PM   #3
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Ty for speaking up so soon and posting that info. I will add mcmaster to links and put part numbers and prices.

That is a pretty good deal on the pump, but the pressure is low. Can the pressure turn off be adjusted, or is it stuck at 60?

I was thinkin about puting check valve/solenoid in required equipment, and I do see your point, but they're really not required. I would suggest to anyone who makes a kit to use one or the other though.

hippy
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Old 07-28-2006, 04:49 PM   #4
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The pump from there is rated for 60 psi. Its very possible to raise the pressure via bypass or otherwise, the issue the amps. Its designed for 4.5 amps. Im sure it would void the warranty (possibly) and definately shorten the pump life. Whether that is an issue in a water/meth injection system (due the the fact its not going to be constant use) I cant say. Eitherway, its a great start for someone on a budget.

Also, most of the clark pumps are 120 VAC, the few DC pumps seem to be for gas.
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Old 07-28-2006, 05:40 PM   #5
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yeh, This place has a 100psi pump for $80, but it would probably be better to get 6 people together and get your 150psi pump for $70. I'm lookin around for better deals on shurflows and other types of pumps.....

peace
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Old 07-28-2006, 07:43 PM   #6
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Good idea Hippy. You need to keep this up or it will will fade off like many other forum. If enough people can chime in, it will be very successful very quickly

I have almost 90% of all shurflo pump data sheet - not quite all the new models but if you want a spec, just tell me the model number and i will post it up for you if i have it.

Richard


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Old 07-28-2006, 07:52 PM   #7
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Any chance you know which ones are 80+psi and where to get them? The specs on these ones would probably be nice, but I'd think that it would be more important to find them for a good price. Either way, if you give me a link to specs, or post them, I'll do something to get them in the first post(like with any info people add) so people don't have to read through the whole thread to get info.

peace
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:59 PM   #8
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Hey rich, I was wondering if you could give temp ratings for shurflow pumps? Ie-What temps can they be opperated in, and what temp fluids can they flow?
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:30 PM   #9
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bump.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:46 AM   #10
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Nice job Hippy. ...and bump...

here's a page with some very OEM-looking tanks:
Flambeau fluid tanks
This places also has some interesting items like level sensors, pump brackets, pumps (I'm assuming they aren't 80+psi), tank pick-ups, in-line check valves, remote tanks filler assemblies, etc, etc.

Last edited by BadTrip; 07-31-2006 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:13 PM   #11
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Part numbers and prices (some prices are out of date):

http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

For fluid line, I use:

McMaster part number: 5393k32 -

Beverage, Food, Dairy Wire Reinforced PVC Tube 3/8" ID, 5/8" OD, 1/8" Wall, Clear

It's the DIY kit I'm using. No problems so far.
Frank
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Hey rich, I was wondering if you could give temp ratings for shurflow pumps? Ie-What temps can they be opperated in, and what temp fluids can they flow?
Hippy, I need to have a model number. I will try to select a few popular pump motor Shurflo uses. 60W, 100W and 150W and post them here

Will this be OK?

Richard
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:41 PM   #13
hippy
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It will have to be since I dunno what model most people use. I'd keep it to the 100 and 150w models though since the 60w one isn't made to run the pressure we need(as far as I can tell).

peace
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry
Part numbers and prices (some prices are out of date):

http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

For fluid line, I use:

McMaster part number: 5393k32 -

Beverage, Food, Dairy Wire Reinforced PVC Tube 3/8" ID, 5/8" OD, 1/8" Wall, Clear

It's the DIY kit I'm using. No problems so far.
Frank
Looks nice and all, but the tubing I posted above costs less, and seems to have better temp and pressure ratings... Ie-Nylon tubing seems to be the best choice(for water) unless you're goin with real fuel lines. If anyone disagrees with this, I'd like to hear what you think.

peace
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:09 PM   #15
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Here is a specifications of the 12V/100psi pump with 100W motor:







Here is a specifications of the 12V/150psi pump with 150W motor:





Richard

Last edited by Richard L; 07-31-2006 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:24 PM   #16
hippy
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Ty, that's some nice info. It would seem the best place to mount these pumps would be in the coolest place possible.

Having the tank and nozzle close to the pump might help keep the pump cooler since it might not have to work as hard, but this might not matter so much? The less powerful pump seems like it eats up less wattage at a given psi. At first glance(a guess) it would seem like if we were gonna run a staged kit, 100psi(or 80 would be fine) with a 100w pump would be better for energy consumption then a 150w pump(using 1.4 less amps), and conceptually shouldn't make a noticeable difference as to performance since the systems flow isn't changed by adjusting pressure in the lines. Not that 1.4 amps matters so much I guess, but the pump with the smaller motor should cost less.

The 150w pump seems like it can take more abuse then the 100w pump before it overheats, so for higher pressures(like 150psi), if mounted far from the nozzle, possibly far from the tank, or in a warm spot, the 150w pump might be a better choice. One thing to note is that unless mounted in a hot place(or possibly with too much load on it from long tubing), or running over 100psi, a 100w pump(and 150) should be able to run through a full tank of injection without overheating, since it should take more then a half hour of running b4 the pump overheats.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 10-27-2006 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:33 AM   #17
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We have been using the 100W pump for the misting booth for many years in summer shows and every hour of so - on really hot days do it more often. We need to reset it due to thermal switch activation. We ran 3 second on, 3 second off continuously. We used a 90psi by-pass.

This year, we decided to test the 150W pump xxx-239 on the same rig. We have also put a 125psi by-pass spring on the pump. On Sunday, we never need to do anything apart from topping up the water tanks.

I believe the pump case temperature rise/thermal cutout trigger point is directly related to ambient temperatures. Bigger motor may not be as stressed at high pressure, I cannot recall Shurflo has ever offered a 150 psi pump with the 100W motor.

The above 100W specifications didn't include the power/flow curve beyond 100psi. We have quotes form Shurflo over the year for both pumps, the 100W cost a lot less than the 150W. The 60W motor is even cheaper. Without publishing the prices, you can alsmost imagine the retail price is very close to $/w. Slight variation such as demand-switch/by-pass valve etc make some small differences, but $/w is the most significant.

The chioce is totally yours, but the pump that suits your budget.

Richard


PS I forgot to mention, the lid of the misting box is tightly shut compared to the lid fully opened on the 100W motor.
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Old 08-04-2006, 11:50 PM   #18
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....had link that no longer works

Last edited by hippy; 09-13-2006 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:11 AM   #19
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<cough>
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:55 PM   #20
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heh.....a bump cough? kewl. ...lemme try............

[cough]
[/cough]
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:27 AM   #21
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Thought I would throw this out there- its a diy unit that will automatically vary the flow of a water injection so that it rises with engine load-
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1539/article.html

This place is great by the way for diy articles- check out the one on intakes and eliminating negative boost.........

Here is the company that sells the water injection controller kit......
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView...Max=&SUBCATID=
Its about 23 bucks by the way!
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:31 AM   #22
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I'd put it up top, but I don't feel like paying to verify that it's not a rip off.

peace
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Old 01-10-2007, 06:30 PM   #23
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Bump anyone know anywhere i can get some pictures and instructions like a step by step to do this...thank you steven
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:19 PM   #24
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Hippy,

Check out Fastenal.com for nice metal push to connect fittings, and also look at grainger.com also. They do sell shurflo's, but you would have to look a little for the right one.

DP


MODS Sticky this!!
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Old 01-23-2007, 12:26 AM   #25
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Great thread with some very interesting information. +1 for a sticky. I also find it very cool that some of the big name injection companies are chiming in with information. It seems that far too often companies like to discourage alternatives to their products. To me this just shows that Coolingmist and Richard L are not afraid of a little competition and are secure in the value of their products! Thanks for your input guys.

BTW I think it is Coolingmist that is located in Norcross, GA. I would love to come and learn more about your products and see your shop! I am less than 30 minutes from you guys up here in Flowery Branch, GA near Lake Lanier. I am considering either buying or putting together a water injection/meth kit in the very near future and I would like to learn more about all the products that are out there.
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