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Old 10-23-2001, 02:06 PM   #1
the Dabbler
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Default Piggybacks run track days?

I know a lot of people run piggybacks successfully (which is what I'm trying to do now).

Has anyone has run any track days (i.e., road race) with their piggyback setup?
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Old 10-23-2001, 02:20 PM   #2
skywalker
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Yep, I have run an S-AFC and S-ITC all successfully on the track. I have a J&S but havent used it on the track yet, but I am sure it will be helpful.

Anymore Q's?
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Old 10-23-2001, 02:23 PM   #3
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Yep, I have run an S-AFC and S-ITC all successfully on the track. I have a J&S but havent used it on the track yet, but I am sure it will be helpful.

Anymore Q's?
Track as in road-race-30-minutes-at-a-time-flat-out, right? I.e., not drag?

Thanks.
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Old 10-23-2001, 03:26 PM   #4
Jon Bogert
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I've run two trackdays with nothing more than a voltage clamp, RRFPR and fuel pump. The wastegate is set to 5-6 psi, but boost would creep to 7psi on the long straight.

The first time was in 95 degree heat in August and I was pushing hard for 4 hours. Last weekend I did it again in much cooler weather, and again everything was OK.

If you haven't thought of this already, I would consider it mandatory to run 100+ octane on the track. I went through 20 gallons of VP 103 at the August trackday. Extra safety margin, plus I don't worry about the boost creep so I can focus on reeling in those S4s!
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Old 10-23-2001, 03:35 PM   #5
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Bogert
I've run two trackdays with nothing more than a voltage clamp, RRFPR and fuel pump. The wastegate is set to 5-6 psi, but boost would creep to 7psi on the long straight.

The first time was in 95 degree heat in August and I was pushing hard for 4 hours. Last weekend I did it again in much cooler weather, and again everything was OK.

If you haven't thought of this already, I would consider it mandatory to run 100+ octane on the track. I went through 20 gallons of VP 103 at the August trackday. Extra safety margin, plus I don't worry about the boost creep so I can focus on reeling in those S4s!
Since you also have a 2000 (like me), could you provide specific details on your setup?:

1. Voltage/Wattage of zener -- or were you using a Split Second clamp?
2. Family of turbocharger?
3. Intercooler size?
4. Exhaust size and type?
5. Type of RRFPR? Bell? Vortech?
6. Rise on RRFPR? 4:1? 6:1?
7. EGTs on track, if available?

I'm sorry for the third degree on this, but I'm especially interested in what worked for you, since you have an MY00.

Thanks.

[edit: Yes, definitely race gas will be used at the track. I seem to recall someone saying that anything higher than 100 will be leaded to some degree? Maybe not enough to cause a problem for a weekend a month?]

Last edited by the Dabbler; 10-23-2001 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 10-23-2001, 03:48 PM   #6
Jon Bogert
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1. Voltage/Wattage of zener -- or were you using a Split Second clamp?
Split Second
2. Family of turbocharger?
Turbonetics rebuilt T3-Super 70 el cheapo special
3. Intercooler size?
RalliSpec diagonal style
4. Exhaust size and type?
Minnam up and down pipe. 2.5" pipe with 2.5" cat back to 2.25" STi muffler.
5. Type of RRFPR? Bell? Vortech?
Bell
6. Rise on RRFPR? 4:1? 6:1?
Don't remember. I think it's pretty high (6 or 7?)
7. EGTs on track, if available?
Normal. On full throttle full boost they're very stable at 1400-1450.
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Old 10-23-2001, 03:49 PM   #7
Jon Bogert
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Re fuel: I believe VP 103 is the highest street legal unleaded you can get. Sunoco 100 is a fine alternative. I buy VP 103 by the drum for the rally car, so when I take the Subaru to the track, I just steal a little.
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Old 10-23-2001, 04:09 PM   #8
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Bogert
1. Voltage/Wattage of zener -- or were you using a Split Second clamp?
Split Second
2. Family of turbocharger?
Turbonetics rebuilt T3-Super 70 el cheapo special
3. Intercooler size?
RalliSpec diagonal style
4. Exhaust size and type?
Minnam up and down pipe. 2.5" pipe with 2.5" cat back to 2.25" STi muffler.
5. Type of RRFPR? Bell? Vortech?
Bell
6. Rise on RRFPR? 4:1? 6:1?
Don't remember. I think it's pretty high (6 or 7?)
7. EGTs on track, if available?
Normal. On full throttle full boost they're very stable at 1400-1450.
Thanks!
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Old 10-23-2001, 05:17 PM   #9
skywalker
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Nope, wasn't drag...

Looks like you have enough info you need...
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Old 10-23-2001, 05:20 PM   #10
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Nope, wasn't drag...

Looks like you have enough info you need...
Thanks. I'm feeling better about trying to get this to work.
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Old 10-24-2001, 05:28 AM   #11
DarkImpreza
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just curious, piggy back controller like S-AFC, S-ITC, boost controller...with all these do I still need to change ECU?
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Old 10-24-2001, 07:23 AM   #12
bsquare
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No, you just need to spend as much money as a good standalone ECU and get far less. If you want to make power, get real engine management. From postings on this board, it looks like you are 4 or 5 times more likely to damage your engine by turbocharging it if you use piggybacks vs standalone.


Ben
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Old 10-24-2001, 12:34 PM   #13
paultg
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Quote:
No, you just need to spend as much money as a good standalone ECU and get far less. If you want to make power, get real engine management. From postings on this board, it looks like you are 4 or 5 times more likely to damage your engine by turbocharging it if you use piggybacks vs standalone.
Your statement for the most part is incorrect. You can have a turbo car with piggy backs run very well for far less cost than some aftermarket ECU options. There are way to many variables that factor into have a stand alone ECU or piggybacks, the big one I think is the amount of boost you want to run. I think 5-7 PSI on a stock ECU with Piggybacks is a very econimical approach. Anything over 7 psi might require a stand alone ECU for the best results.

This is all my opinion. It really depends on what you want, how much you can spend, and how much time you have. But saying piggy back systems is the "wrong way/fake engine management" to turbo your car is an incorrect statement.

Paul G.
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Old 10-24-2001, 12:37 PM   #14
the Dabbler
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bsquare: Hopefully you didn't mean to be as disparaging as your post read. There are more diplomatic ways to make your point. We're all here to discuss, right?

That being said, you do have a good point. A large number of piggybacks would be in the ballpark, costwise, of a full ECU. However, if an RRFPR and voltage clamp can be made to work reliably, this is an order of magnitude less costly.

The only question for me is, can I trust myself enough to tune it properly for track duty, as some people have? Personally, that's what I'm trying to decide. I may still go full ECU.
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Old 10-24-2001, 08:14 PM   #15
bsquare
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If you only want to run 5psi, then you are so minimally stressing the engine that youo can have wildly incorrect settings on your piggybacks and the car will be fine. I plan to run 10psi to start and move up from there, so piggybacks would be a very bad idea.


Ben
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Old 10-24-2001, 11:50 PM   #16
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by bsquare
If you only want to run 5psi, then you are so minimally stressing the engine that youo can have wildly incorrect settings on your piggybacks and the car will be fine. I plan to run 10psi to start and move up from there, so piggybacks would be a very bad idea.

Ben
I would agree that higher amounts of boost increase the need for a full ECU. At some point (perhaps 10psi), you're right -- piggybacks are starting to look unfeasible.

And to be clear, if time and money were no object, then I don't think anyone could argue that a properly tuned full ECU would not be superior to piggybacks at any boost level.

Re 5psi being a small amount of stress: I don't think I agree with that. Maybe for casual driving. But for track duty, the car will be under boost a lot higher % of the time, compared to street use. Any mis-tuning will show itself quickly under those conditions, even at 5psi.
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Old 10-25-2001, 03:51 AM   #17
bsquare
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There is little evidence that the cars have trouble running at 5psi for extended periods. The upper bound for boost without standalone engine management is 7psi, in general. Again, keep in mind the price if your piggybacks don't work quite right together and you get a nice boost spike or your engine runs lean...how much do you think it costs to rebuild a motor?


Ben
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Old 10-25-2001, 01:03 PM   #18
the Dabbler
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Quote:
Originally posted by bsquare
There is little evidence that the cars have trouble running at 5psi for extended periods. The upper bound for boost without standalone engine management is 7psi, in general. Again, keep in mind the price if your piggybacks don't work quite right together and you get a nice boost spike or your engine runs lean...how much do you think it costs to rebuild a motor?

Ben
Ben. This is the entire point of my post: can I trust myself to tune piggybacks properly for track duty?

And you should keep in mind the price of a full ECU "if you get a nice boost spike or your engine runs lean." In other words, a badly tuned full ECU can blow an engine just as fast as a badly tuned piggyback setup. Agreed? So you'd still have a dead engine, and have paid $2k more to blow it up. You shouldn't lead people to believe that the ECU will magically make the engine bulletproof. It's just a matter of what is easier to tune to a reliable state. For the record, I think a full ECU would be easier (don't know, because I haven't tried it), simply because you have more data and controls to work with, and there is an established user base of files and whatnot to draw from (for a Tec-II, anyway).

Please don't think you have to educate me on ECU vs piggybacks. I've tried to make it clear that I understand the pros and cons here. I wanted to know one thing: Have people run piggybacks at the track. Thank you for your input.
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