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Old 08-01-2006, 08:48 PM   #26
ghibli99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyvb
^^^ Excellent information to be found in there. Thanks for posting that. I plan on heading back to AMS after the VF39 goes in to compare it to my regular Stage 2 runs.

-Mike
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:22 AM   #27
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Lightbulb

All that matters is that the car had it's AFR fixed and there wasn't any knock. As for the gas, it's a severe limiter in the ability to tune because with that crappy gas, knock will appear much faster. Of course, if you had a few more mods, you might have been able to squeeze out more, but as it sits, it's probably the best you could do given the circumstances. Personally, I had my car dyno tuned by Doug @ topspeed in Minneapolis on a dynodynamics, and the tune was pretty good, but it sure did read low! Use your butt dyno and tell me if you can feel a difference?
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Old 08-02-2006, 03:39 AM   #28
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Next time you're in Colorado shoot me a PM and come dyno on my dyno dynamics.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:29 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyvb
Thanks kenny, I was just about to make a reference to this post.

Will,

It was nice to meet you on Saturday. I'll do my best to deconstruct your dyno run. There was another Stage 2 there that weekend and i'll post his vs. yours. (2002, bug eye, Stage2, UP/DP/E)

Here is the funny thing about people's reaction to the MAHA.

a) If I don't make enough power, it is OBVIOUSLY the dyno.
b) If I make ALOT of power, I made alot of power on the Heartbreaker.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:32 PM   #30
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I'm not blaming AMS or the MAHA Dyno.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drac9
Next time you're in Colorado shoot me a PM and come dyno on my dyno dynamics.
Me, and the car, should be there in October.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:43 PM   #32
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Will,

I'll have your dyno sheet and another stage 2 dyno sheet up to compare with by this afternoon.

Why do cars make less than proclaimed by the manufacturer? Because manufacturer's make their claim on 93/94 octane gas.

A good example was Chris's STi vs. Another Gentlemen's STi on that dyno day. (or heck, any STi Owner)

Chris has a Stage 2 STi with Alcohol Injection.
Other car has Stage 2 STi.

Difference in HP? 40 WHP. yes, 40 WHP!

Why?

Chris's STi didn't ping at all and had advance timing all the way to the top.
Other STi(s) pings and pulls timing (thus boost and also makes the car run richer = less power)

I have yet to see a Subaru off the lot that doesn't pull back timing on 91 oct gas.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:51 PM   #33
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It's the Dyno.

My Cobb stage 2 with just a turbo back (no up at the time) put down 224 whp and 229 whtq on Dan Harman's dynojet.
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erexxx
It's the Dyno.

My Cobb stage 2 with just a turbo back (no up at the time) put down 224 whp and 229 whtq on Dan Harman's dynojet.
If its the dyno, why was Mr. Harmann happy with the car, which he tuned, perform on the MAHA?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1039739&page=6

Why does AEM, SPT, Audi of America, and countless other firms use/have used our dyno for their R&D?

I believe your accusations are unwarranted.

edit: fixed grammar so I sound less like a FOB
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:11 PM   #35
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I don't want to turn this into an Anti-AMS or Anti-MAHA flame war.

The guys at AMS are good guys

I was just kinda bummed about my numbers, that's all.
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSPower.com
If its the dyno, why was Mr. Harmann happy with the car, which he tuned, perform on the MAHA?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1039739&page=6

Why does AEM, SPT, Audi of America, and countless other firms use/have used our dyno for their R&D?

I believe your accusations are unwarranted.

edit: fixed grammar so I sound less like a FOB
I'm not saying your dyno is bad, infact I've heard great things about your dyno. All I'm saying is that it reads low. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erexxx
I'm not saying your dyno is bad, infact I've heard great things about your dyno. All I'm saying is that it reads low. Nothing wrong with that.
Fair enough, I apologize if I came across to aggressively.
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSPower.com
Will,

I'll have your dyno sheet and another stage 2 dyno sheet up to compare with by this afternoon.

Why do cars make less than proclaimed by the manufacturer? Because manufacturer's make their claim on 93/94 octane gas.

A good example was Chris's STi vs. Another Gentlemen's STi on that dyno day. (or heck, any STi Owner)

Chris has a Stage 2 STi with Alcohol Injection.
Other car has Stage 2 STi.

Difference in HP? 40 WHP. yes, 40 WHP!

Why?

Chris's STi didn't ping at all and had advance timing all the way to the top.
Other STi(s) pings and pulls timing (thus boost and also makes the car run richer = less power)

I have yet to see a Subaru off the lot that doesn't pull back timing on 91 oct gas.
yeah that would be me
damn ca 91!!!!

but at least it sounded like a monster right dan? lol
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:45 PM   #39
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Default Analysis of Wagonmonster's 2002 WRX

Here are two overlays of two different Stage 2 cars.

Both are 2002 WRX Wagons, Stage 2.
BA's Stage 2: Helix UP, Cobb DP, Helix MP, Prodrive AB.
Intake: K&N Air Filter.

Done on the same day. Ambient information available at the bottom.

WM wrx: 225.2 HP/285.9NM
BA wrx: 238.7 HP/318.2NM

The pictures have been overlayed.

Picture #1: WM in the foreground showing his timing, boost.


Picture #2: BA's in the foreground showing his timing, boost.



Analysis:

Boost:
  • WM's Boost reaches 1bar@2800 RPM.
  • BA's Boost reaches 1bar@2650 RPM

Drivetrain Loss:
Both are almost identical: 52.7 BHP vs. 51.4 BHP

Timing:
  • WM: Timing pull @3000 RPM -> 4000 RPM. Timing@4000RPM: 10 degrees
  • WM: Timing@6600RPM: ~24 degrees
  • BA: No timing pull. Timing@4000RPM: ~14degrees
  • BA: Timing@6600RPM: ~28 degrees

WM: Which Map are you running on your car? 91 octane? 91 cali-piss octane?
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Old 08-02-2006, 05:32 PM   #40
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91 Cali Piss (and the piss map, I got audible pinging with the regular map)

And my mods
Invidia Catted DP
Prodrive Axle-back
K&N Panel Filter
Stock UP

Last edited by WagonMonster; 08-02-2006 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:12 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WagonMonster
91 Cali Piss (and the piss map, I got audible pinging with the regular map)

And my mods
Invidia Catted DP
Prodrive Axle-back
K&N Panel Filter
Stock UP

BA's car was no cat UP, catted DP, no cats on the MP. (that accounts for the faster spool-up)

Comparison wasn't completely fair than.

Your peak torque was 210.70 lbft@5150 RPM.

Looking for a stock 2.0L WRX on the dyno. I'll see what I can find.

Like I've said, I've never seen a Subaru off the lot that did not ping.

opinion: I'm not a tuner, Marc is, i'm just a monkey What i'm going to say is also missing alot of the parts of the equation but I'll try my best to illustrate concerns that tuners have to deal with.

Remember: HP is Torque * Engine Speed.
Ways to make power in an Engine:
NA: Lean it out and advance the timing, increase compression.
FI: Increase Boost, Blow cool/compressed air, Lean it out, advance timing.

Assume Stage 2 cars, identical hardware, 1 with 91, 1 with 93 octane gas.

Lower RPM (up to 3.5k to 4k): 91 vs. 93 octane doesn't matter THAT much. That's why in most cases, TQ curve and numbers are very similar regardless of octane.

Higher RPM(4k+): This is where you'll start noticing 91 vs 93 just isn't the same anymore

With 91 Octane, a Tuner has these limitations:
  • Can't overboost since the turbo's will be blowing hot air. Hot Air = higher chance of pre-detonation.
  • Have to run rich at higher RPMs to prevent pre-detonation.
  • Can't advance timing or that might cause pre-detonation.

Therefore most good tuner's tend to pull these values back, thus the TQ (compared to non-91 octane maps) at higher RPM's. That's where us California guys get hit hard: the higher RPM range.

Unfortunately, the mythical beast that is HP, is based on your TQ*Engine Speed (RPM). Thus we can have almost comparable TQ number but have a huge drop in HP numbers.

Hope this helps.
(anything I've might have mis-informed, let me know. I'll make corrections right away)
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:23 PM   #42
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My Invidia DP eliminates the 3rd cat in the midpipe.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:35 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WagonMonster
My Invidia DP eliminates the 3rd cat in the midpipe.
/Nod, so you're running 2/3 cats, right?
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:04 AM   #44
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Yes, one DP cat and the UP cat.
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:36 AM   #45
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I think your up pipe has to say good bye!


Mine is soon to be history!
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:48 AM   #46
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So here's what I see:

1. Low timing. Looks like timing is pulled at least a couple degrees, so the ECU is seeing enough knock to likely drop the IAM to 12. There's definitely something a bit funky as timing is usually at it's minimum as soon as full boost hits (around 3k rpm) and should steadily rise after that. Yours drops as it gets to 3.5k and then starts going up. The "BA" car that is catless is running about 4* more timing from 3.5k and up.

2. Stock uppipe. On CA fuel, it's important to remove as much backpressure as possible. More backpressure = increased tendancy to detonate = lower timing = lower power. You also see this effect as your car spools slower than the "BA" car, the increased backpressure requires higher wastegate duties to hit target boost. Notice how the "BA" car ramps quickly up to 1.1 bar were your car ramps up to 1.0 bar then gradually makes it to 1.1 bar 3-500 rpm later? Classic sign of low WDC for the parts on the car or lower than expected pressure differential across the turbo. The slow spool also explains the "funky" timing I mentioned earlier.

Also note that while the "BA" car is running slightly less boost above 4500 rpm (it starts to taper off there), it continues to make more power.

Too bad we don't have AFR readings, this could also explain some of the differences.

Get a catless uppipe, your car will be much happier on the OTS tune.
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:51 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghibli99
I also got dyno'd yesterday at AMS after WagonMonster. I posted this in the AMS thread... here's my plot to compare to his results above:
See that big dip in timing at 3.6k in your dyno chart? The ECU saw significant detonation there. Not good. At the very least, you should be running the CA-91 map, but I doubt that will totally fix it.

From what I've seen, Cobb seems to run the cars a bit too lean right when boost hits with their OTS maps for CA fuel. They seem to be able to get away with it in other states.

I had constant pinging problems with my Cobb Stg1 on full throttle which would only go away after multiple pulls to let the ECU learn. I gave up and went back to stock fearing for my engine's life. The AP is a good product, but the OTS maps suck for CA. Even the so-called CA91 maps are too much for a lot of cars here. I don't think I would have been able to hear the pinging with the Prodrive oval-tip I have on now, so if you have a non-stock muffler, you could be pinging and not hear it. Datalogs will readily show how happy your engine is.

Last edited by drees; 08-03-2006 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:05 AM   #48
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Drees, nice input!
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:07 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSPower.com
Drees, nice input!
Thanks! I wish I could have made it to your dyno day and mini-meet last weekend, but the family keeps me busy on the weekends.

-Dave
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:11 AM   #50
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No worries! Family > everything!
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