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Old 10-23-2001, 06:11 PM   #1
EchoWrx
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Talking H&R Springs Sti Struts & Cryo parts

After my pitiful season in Auto-X I have come to the conclusion: That I need GLASSES ! and better suspension.

I was looking at H&R springs because they were the stiffest and Sti Struts /w Sti upper mts. cuz they were the cheapest. I have heared they were good combos also.

My QUESTION is, "Should I get my springs cryogenicly frozen?"
My rotors were frozen and they feel great, they still do rust though. My reason is that I have had cars with new springs become very soft after a year. So would freezing them alter this loss in spring rate?

Thanx
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Old 10-23-2001, 10:57 PM   #2
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This is an excellant question that after reading it I have to know the answer. I don't know now but will ask a friend who is an engineer who is very knowledgible in materials even though he is a mechanical engineer. I believe some spring makers use cold wound springs and other use hot tempering to achieve spring rate desired( along with coil diameter, wire diameter. coil angle and number of coils etc... ). H&R and Eibach are known worldwide for quality springs and have outstanding reputations in many different applications. Although springs can and do settle some over time I have never experienced or heard of any noticeable spring sagging with either of these spring makers and would bet that the H&R's would work fine and not sag in the next few years if at all for the life of the car.
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Old 10-26-2001, 08:00 AM   #3
EchoWrx
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Default I called Eibach

They knew very little of the Cryo technique. Ans suggested that I should avoid doing so (DARN!!). They did say that ther springs are extremely strong and the tech said he knew nothing that would make it stronger with out messing with the spring rate

I am still skeptical

I'll try calling H&R next, see what happens
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Old 10-26-2001, 01:29 PM   #4
25psi
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I never EVER heard of cry treating springs.

Rotors are different issue. But springs!! Do not think so.

Eugene
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Old 10-26-2001, 01:46 PM   #5
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Cryo makes metal harder. You don't want to do that to springs.
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Old 10-26-2001, 04:49 PM   #6
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I haven't found out more info on cryo treating springs yet but H&R does 4 controlled compressions of their springs until coil bind and re checks all dimensions and rates and states their springs wont sag for the life of the car. There is an add on issue for H&R springs included with the new European Car mag this month that goes into detail on H&R springs and their manufacturing process and testing. Its advertising sure but it does give a little more info
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Old 10-30-2001, 06:01 AM   #7
EchoWrx
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Default Called H&R

I talked to a more knowledgeable tech @H&R. He knew what cryoing was. He almost bit my head off when I mentioned the process. He said that the springs would break immediately after installation.

This is a strange reaction, both from the tech and the metal , a few sites say that the metal that is cryoed becomes stronger. Nascar and Formula1 teams have used this process on smaller springs that are under more stress than the suspension springs. I am talkin about the springs on engine valves. They say that they loose less compression with cryoed valve springs.

I read when things are cryoed they go through a freeze and a heating cycle that lasts many hours (24-72 hours to be exact). This tempers the metal parts and makes them stronger and gives the parts a better tensile strength. The way they become brittle is when not heat cycled from cryogenic temperature correctly.

Gee I gota find more info on this subject.

Anyone have first hand knowledge on this type of metal treatment process, please chime in
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Old 10-30-2001, 06:13 AM   #8
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Talking Hey 25psi

"I never EVER heard of cry treating springs."

Neither have I, that is why i asked.

I'm a Subie guy.

We don't follow the road, we make our own.

Hey with AWD and 165hp and steam engine torque curve, I guess we can blaze our own trail

If we didn't, well I guess we would all be drivin Hon-du's,
Huh?
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Old 10-30-2001, 08:42 AM   #9
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The process would make the metal more brittle. Flex is more inportant for springs not hardness. Go to this site and maybe you can find more info. The owner is really cool and will answer your questions.http://www.frozenrotors.com/
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Old 10-30-2001, 03:26 PM   #10
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There is an extensive thread in the Transmission forum (heavy duty gearboxes, I think) that covers more details of heat treating and cryo treating than I have ever found online. Essentially, proper heat treating includes cryotreatment. Gearguy doesn't claim to be an expert, but he sure sounds like more of one than any of the cryo people I have talked to .

I don't imagine that it makes any difference at all.

BTW, regarding Formula 1 spring cryotreatment, that is a crock. They use pneumatic valve actuation, not valve springs =).
*wistfully* Oh, to rev to 20K
rob
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Old 10-30-2001, 04:00 PM   #11
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Exclamation Correct me if I"m wrong but...

Wouldn't cryo'ing make the springs more brittle?

For things like rotors where they're put under tremendous heat and pressure under use, making it hard (i.e. cryo'ing) would/should make it perform better.

For something like a spring where you still want to keep its elasticity, cryo'ing might not be the best thing for it.

LaterZ!
Darren!!
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Old 10-31-2001, 02:17 PM   #12
EchoWrx
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Default Got more info

I talked too frozenrotors.com

Cryoing springs would make them stronger!!!!
About 5%-15% stronger.

The catch is, each spring would cost about $40 a piece to freeze, DARN

Second catch, After cryoing them you have to get them bead blasted!!! The reason is after cryoing them the spring tensions from the inside to the outside slightly change. The inside of a wound spring is compresed while the outside is streched. Bead blasting relives the stress that cryoing put on them,I know this sounds weird. But cryoing works on a atomic level and makes the bonds between molecules slow down, compress, get closer together and bind so they fit more like a jigsaw puzzle. Cool Huh ? This would probaly cost $20 bucks a spring.

Darn again !!!

So in cost we are looking at $240 bones to get some $300 dollar springs 5%-15% stronger.

I might as well go and buy a new set after the old ones die out.

Darn...Darn...Darn!!!!!!

Well at least I know


"AND KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE!!!!" GIJOE!!!

Thanx,
Gill
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Old 10-31-2001, 02:33 PM   #13
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Hmm.. I'm still not so sure.. As a former "metals dude" I was always taught to think of "cryo'd" parts as being very similar to hardening, stronger, yes, but also much more brittle.. Who knows though? I could be wrong.. But as far as the F1 motors having cryo'd valve springs.. Yeah, Conduit's certainly right, there aren't any sort of springs in that valvetrain..you'd have more valve overlap at 20k rpm than you'd know what to do with..
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Old 10-31-2001, 03:11 PM   #14
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Cryo treating is for mainly for wear resistance, and wear is not an important factor on springs.

No way, no how should springs be getting soft after any amount of time. The stiffness of a metal never changes over time, so the spring shouldn't get soft unless it's actually deformed somehow. Typically you would design a spring to never deform like this. I would suspect shocks.

Tidbit: For super high precision instruments, glass springs are used. Don't try this in your car!

cheers
mbs
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Old 10-31-2001, 07:09 PM   #15
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Cryoing springs is money down the toilet. Stick to using it for brake rotors where it will actually do some good.


Ben
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Old 11-01-2001, 03:57 AM   #16
EchoWrx
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Wink wow

bsquared got his 2 cents in.

Conduit, you might be right about F1 cars, I was referring to open wheel type track type cars of lesser performance. Also older F1's still in use and real road cars real people can buy and modify and race. Sorry about the confusion.

To me any car that is that's not in available toreal consumers in some form is not a real car. It is a hyper car, Kinda like the way a person can own a plane or a jet but not a F-15orF18 fighterjet. Those are reserved for an elite few.


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