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Old 08-01-2006, 06:04 AM   #1
swordmaster
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Subaru Stars Hydra questions

Hydra version 2.17 revision 1

What are the following maps for as they are not in the manual:
Max ISC integrator
Min AC ISC integrator
Trim by gear

How do I stop my car over reving just after I turn the key, it starts, revs then drops to almost nothing (nearly stalls) then settles.

thanks

the swordmaster
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Last edited by swordmaster; 08-01-2006 at 06:08 AM. Reason: Added Trim by gear
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Old 08-01-2006, 04:55 PM   #2
Element Tuning
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who's base map are you running?
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Old 08-02-2006, 03:05 AM   #3
swordmaster
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Subaru Stars

Thanks for the reply, I would rather not say who tuned it at this point, though it was not done in the US.

As my car did not have a hydra produced base map the tuner started from scratch. The main running of the car is ok (main fuel and spark maps etc) but it suffers at starting and can stall when comming to a stop at junctions or in busy traffic (idle falls to zero before picking up stabilising) This causes the engine to struggle and vibrate. At the moment I'm not using the car so much. I am not recieving much help on these issues with the tuner.

your suggestions would be appreciated.

the swordmaster

(p.s. I have read you tuning guides)
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:43 PM   #4
Element Tuning
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I understand. My point is that without a great base map you have your work cut out. Lowering the Max ISC Integrator will limit the maximum amount the idle circuit can increase the idle. You want this to slope down as the coolant temperature rises and this will limit the idle flare up. Also adjusting the PID settings under the ISC will also limit this.

It's likely however your extreme idle drop is due to poor fuel tuning or your min PWM duty is too low (if this is not a DBW car). To help with the extreme idle drop while pulling up to a light increase your "vehicle moving steps" but you shouldn't rely on this.

Good luck.
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Last edited by Element Tuning; 08-02-2006 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 03:48 PM   #5
swordmaster
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Thanks for the guidance, Phil. Is there any benefit in looking at hydra supplied base maps, to get an Idea on how these maps should generally look? assuming that I could get hold of any)

regards

the swordmaster

Last edited by swordmaster; 08-02-2006 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:45 PM   #6
bboy
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Phil would be in the business of selling said maps and not many of his loyal customers are going to share theirs without his blessing.

Some of us have spent a lot of time with the Hydra on a Subaru and we are happy to help. Phil knows it best and I think he'll help up to the point where he's compromising his business.

As usual, Phil's suggestions are spot on. Getting the car to idle at all temperatures is a long term project. I bet Phil sat there letting the car warm up with his computer 50-100 times to get everything dialed in, and I benefit from that work.
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:10 AM   #7
swordmaster
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What I suggested is not get Phil to supply his maps, but an Idea of what some of the control maps should look like and what those control maps which have no details in the manual are for.

I was led to understand that hydra supplied starter maps for cars which were then used by the tuners to produce one for a specific car, thats what I would like to see. No map supplied by anybody would be a solution due to the nature of my car.

You might benifit from having a good tuner on hand, my tuner has been less than helpful. I joined this forum to gain enough information to look at my maps and tweak, I'm not in need of a complete tuning solution.

If I was able to pop round to Element and pay Phil to sort the car out I would be round there in a second, but due to my location that is not possible.

regards

the swordmaster
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:13 AM   #8
swordmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Some of us have spent a lot of time with the Hydra on a Subaru and we are happy to help.
I hope that I can pick your brains on the subject, which was what I thought these forums were for. Sorry if I have offended you. All I want is to get the problems with my car sorted, which my tuner seems unwilling to help me with.

regards

the swordmaster
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:22 AM   #9
swordmaster
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordmaster
Hydra version 2.17 revision 1

What are the following maps for as they are not in the manual:
Max ISC integrator
Min AC ISC integrator
Trim by gear
I have just found that the manual dated Dec 2005 has these in, I was using the May 2005 version. Doh!

Still tweaking.

the swordmaster
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:38 PM   #10
Element Tuning
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I donít think anyone here is offended by you but as a novice tuner and no solid base map you have a difficult road ahead of you. You really have to treat the Hydra EMS like itís and OEM ecu. It has a huge amount of compensation maps that are designed to adequately compensate for various conditions. These conditions while known to experienced tuners need to be compensated for and this is where a specific base map for a given platform becomes invaluable. Even with a great base map, adjustments may still need to be made to perfect a tune for a given set of modifications. It took me (Element Tuning) 50 hours to come up with a decent base map and 2 years of fine tuning various compensation maps to ensure proper tuning through the year whether itís -20C or 80C. On top of that there are voltage compensations that also need to be adjusted and we even run custom injector response curves. This is what it took to make the Element Tuning Hydra EMS the most popular and successful Subaru stand-alone EMS in North America. With our base maps I can tune most setups within 2-3 hours but extensive head work, cams, big bore motors etc can still take 6-8 hours to dial in as tuning is often unconventional with these setups.

In your case since you donít have the luxury of purchasing and Element Tuning Hydra you have no reference to what are acceptable compensation maps. This is the hardest part to define and weíve spent 2 years dialing it in. The main fuel and spark maps are easy and any decent tuner would be able to accomplish this aspect of tuning. You can take the easy route and purchase a base map from us along with tech support (but give me until the end of August as Iím just too busy currently to support outside of the US market) or you can start adjusting the 17 compensation maps from this point on over the next year or so as climate and conditions change. Itís not a particularly fun activity but thatís whatís required if you donít have a ďTunedĒ base map.


Thanks,
Phil
Element Tuning
(240)246.0302
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 08-06-2006, 11:06 AM   #11
swordmaster
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Thanks, Phil.

I realise that I have a struggle to get things right with my application, though I don't believe that all the compensation maps need attention, just some of them. All I want is to learn how to use the hydra so it is a help not a hinderance.

I have just re-read you tuning guides specifically about the ISC, this has given me a few pointers on my next area of tune.

thanks again

the swordmaster
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Old 08-07-2006, 11:02 AM   #12
Element Tuning
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You're welcome.

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:06 PM   #13
swordmaster
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Unhappy HELP - Warm Start?

Adjusted the hydra so that on a relatively cold start (21 Celcius Coolant Temp), It revs to about 1800 then drops down, all nice.

Yet when I try to start at 91 Celcius it revs up to 2500 then drops to 1500 then slowly starts to rise and does not stop. I set cranking enrichment and post start both to zero. What is happening, is there a map I missed?

regards

the swordmaster
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:39 PM   #14
Element Tuning
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Those maps have little to do with idle flare up at start. You need to adjust the "Max ISC Integrator," and or your "TPS zero Cal," and or your "Min ISC Duty," and or your "Stepper ISC Valve Steps."

You're not really giving much information to us at all. What car is this? Please elaborate so I don't have to fish it out of you

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 08-07-2006, 03:52 PM   #15
swordmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Those maps have little to do with idle flare up at start. You need to adjust the "Max ISC Integrator," and or your "TPS zero Cal," and or your "Min ISC Duty," and or your "Stepper ISC Valve Steps."

You're not really giving much information to us at all. What car is this? Please elaborate so I don't have to fish it out of you

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
Sorry.
2.0l Subaru Impreza Phase 2 Classic (compression ratio 10:1)
5 speed manual, standard 123Bhp
Centrefugal Supercharger gets 7.2psi @ 5000rpm
Legacy Chargecooler
WRX injectors (360cc or 380cc)
Tops out currently at 5000rpm 197Bhp, 199Lb/Ft
Redline at approx 6500rpm
New custom exhaust & manifold in pipeline (excuse the pun)

ISC
Proportional - 210
Integral - 145
Derivative - 5

Moving steps up 7.6 (works quite well)

Min PWM Duty - 0
Max PWM Duty - 100
Stepper ISC Valve - 50
Max ISC Integrator - set to 6.4 across the board
TPS zero Cal - where is this?

Is that sufficiant info, excuse my ignorance but what does the max ISC integrator do?

Thank you greatly for you help

regards

the swordmaster
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:52 AM   #16
Element Tuning
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Member#: 54918
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: 673 WHP Element ProComp Engine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swordmaster
Sorry.
2.0l Subaru Impreza Phase 2 Classic (compression ratio 10:1)
5 speed manual, standard 123Bhp
Centrefugal Supercharger gets 7.2psi @ 5000rpm
Legacy Chargecooler
WRX injectors (360cc or 380cc)
Tops out currently at 5000rpm 197Bhp, 199Lb/Ft
Redline at approx 6500rpm
New custom exhaust & manifold in pipeline (excuse the pun)

ISC
Proportional - 210
Integral - 145
Derivative - 5

Moving steps up 7.6 (works quite well)

Min PWM Duty - 0
Max PWM Duty - 100
Stepper ISC Valve - 50
Max ISC Integrator - set to 6.4 across the board
TPS zero Cal - where is this?

Is that sufficiant info, excuse my ignorance but what does the max ISC integrator do?

Thank you greatly for you help

regards

the swordmaster

Unfortunately mapping of the key idle control settings are way off. What I'm looking at would never work well in any stepper motor idle control car I've tuned. Since this isn't and Element Tuning Hydra I have to limit my support to you but I suggest you move over to the Hydra EMS forums and seek some advice and help over there.

Good luck!
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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