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Old 08-02-2006, 09:05 PM   #1
NavyBlueSubaru
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Default Switched to Blow-thru and Speed-density via 5.8, pics inside

Well today I converted my setup to blow-thru while I re-flashed to revision 5.8. I also selected to use Speed-density to see how well I can get it to work.

I have the older turboxs hyperflow FMIC with the silicone piping and a perrin short-ram. I took the silicone pipe that is after the turbo and removed a ~2 inch section from it right before it bends inwards towards the engine bay and inserted the perrin maf pipe in there. The maf wires reached just fine without any modification.

For my intake, I now have a perrin big-maf filter attached to a 3" hacked aem pipe coupled to a perrin inlet hose. Its interesting to now look at the intake and see now maf pipe and instead see a big 3" pipe. You can pretty much do whatever you want to your pre-turbo intake system when the maf is in the post-ic piping.

I enabled the speed-density and set the fuel map to all zeros and left the cross-over requirements alone, figuring that they were set like that for a good reason.

The car fired right up and ran a little lean for a little bit while the ST and LT's adjusted. They dialed in to 14.7 after maybe 30 seconds. I believe this was due to the fact that I used to have a +2 in my fuel map down low and it is currently zero so the error in fueling was not caused by the change to blow-thru but rather a change in my fuel map. In other words, if you have a setup like mine then chances are you can easily switch to blow-thru with minimal problems.

When doing my first pulls, the car was smooth as silk, no jerks or hiccups. It actually felt smoother than v5.0. The only thing that I noticed so far that I dont like is some loud popping/backfire when letting off the gas at the end of pulling in a gear. I think it is because the air from the recirc is being constantly re-measured as it circulates thru the MAF in the intercooler piping, wheras before the maf was "out of the loop" before the turbo. I can probably tune this out but have not yet made an attempt. The car transitions to open-loop very nicely without dipping really rich or lean. Also transitions from low throttle to no throttle while still remaining in gear are much smoother as well; the car used to jerk or buck just slightly before but that is gone now. AFR's are in the mid 10's which is obviously too rich for now but I'll start tuning tomorrow.

I'll post pictures tomorrow of my new setup, perhaps more users will take the plunge and go with a blow-thru setup if they were "not so sure" before.

happy tuning....

Jeff
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:21 PM   #2
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Pics?

Does your UTEC control the WI too?
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
The only thing that I noticed so far that I dont like is some loud popping/backfire when letting off the gas at the end of pulling in a gear.
What kind of AFRs are you seing at wide open?
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:26 PM   #4
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Sounds good! How are cruising afrs ( <5 psi ) looking?
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:30 PM   #5
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I will get some logs tomorrow. The afr's cruising are good at ~14.7. I can see when shifting or letting off after a hard pull that it goes really rich, hence the popping.
WOT reports mid 10's which will be tuned to 11:1 just as a non-wi baseline @ 1 bar. Afterwards i'll start tuning higher boost with the wi/meth.

The utec activates a 3gph nozzle at 8psi and a primary engauges via pressure switch at around 2psi, which is 2gph btw.






Jeff

Last edited by NavyBlueSubaru; 08-02-2006 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:38 AM   #6
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Thanks for posting the pics.

Gethin.
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Old 08-03-2006, 08:17 AM   #7
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jeff, any plans for coding UTI to enable automatic SD fuel map population using the calculated VE from log 6? right now i'm doing it by hand, using excel. it works, but it's very laborious.

-ken
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:01 PM   #8
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Of course there are plans! I am going to have the VE filled into a table just like everything else, along with afr as usual. The auto-tuning will compare your desired afr to acutal and then make appropriate modifications to what your VE value should be to achieve your deisred AFR. It will be more of a strait-forward approach that it is now where I have to convert signals to grams/sec, modify, then convert back to a voltage value.

I have 2 source codes; one is the current version in VB6 and the other is the same code being converted to Visual Studio 2005. It will probably take a while to get the VS2005 version done so I might add it to the current vb6 one if I think I can copy/paste the code over because I dont want to write it twice.

I'll keep everybody posted on the progress of the speed-density feature as it develops. I do not know why Turboxs has decided to not append the Wideband afr on the logger-6, it looks like I might have to unlink the two and run the tuner seperately to get my afr back; either that or stick to logger-1.

btw, I checked my logs and with a gain of 20 and CLB boost values of 150 I was hitting 20psi.

Jeff
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:41 AM   #9
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Can't wait for the VS2005 version Jeff. I really like the look of the .NET tree and menu structures. Actually the code is going to overhauled and done in XML am I right?

Will you one day intergrate UTI-ME into UTI?
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:26 AM   #10
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Only the settings file was done in a semi-XML format. It makes it a lot easier to read the settings in the program and manualy if you want to attempt to make changes using a program like notepad.

UTI-ME might see integration but thats not in the works right now. VS2005 is very similar but in also very different in many ways. I have a ton of "errors" that vs2005 doenst like yet the code is just fine in vb6.

One of the nicest things that users will see with the vs2005 version is an actual installer. Many people experience problems registering dlls and ocx files, but soon that will not be an issue. All you will have to do is install it once and from then on just download the .exe and over-write your old one with it.

So far the blow-thru is working out but the car does run a little bit rough. I am finding that I need to have values of 6 and 7 in my zero load column just to get the trims in a good position. I have the injectors set at 850/420 just like I did prevoiusly in v5.0 and with that I only needed values around 2. Granted, I was running the normal draw-thru system then so there is going to be a difference. I am contemplating just re-flashing the stock ecu to compensate for the injectors all on its own and see if I can get that to work a little better.

Jeff
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Old 08-04-2006, 11:36 AM   #11
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Jeff, I'm surprised you didn't change your injector scaling for the blow-thru MAF. I don't think you can expect it to use the same scaling despite any theoretical reasons. It seems like a crap shoot, probably due to turbulence and eddies in the piping near the MAF. Some people can use a small dia. housing and others need a big one, and the scaling is all over the place even for similar set-ups. The voltage can change as much as 10-15%. And I bet the volts -vs.-flow curve is a different shape than stock too.

What are your thoughts and why do you think scale the injectors in the ECU would be better? Changing the MAF calibration curve in the ECU may be necessary too perhaps.
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Old 08-04-2006, 11:41 AM   #12
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My reasoning for using the same utec injector values are that I am using the same maf housing and that it only applies for closed-loop, which is typically very low flow and vacuum, no boost. The skewing that is observed is with maf-based fueling like verison 5.0 and when you pressurize the maf pipe it doenst register the air the same as it would if it was pre-turbo at atmo. pressure.

The air/fuel ratios are pretty good for now so far so it appears that the values im using for the injector sizing fit well into the speed-density algorithm.

I wanted to try to re-flash and get the fuel trims to near-zero and then work from there, I thought that might be easier to tune and the ecu would have a better time with it. I cannot say either way which method is "better" but I can certainly try both and see personally what works best.

You are right about the crap shoot with relation to turbulence and other weird things that happen that might not be expected.

Jeff
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Old 08-04-2006, 12:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
My reasoning for using the same utec injector values are that I am using the same maf housing and that it only applies for closed-loop, which is typically very low flow and vacuum, no boost. The skewing that is observed is with maf-based fueling like verison 5.0 and when you pressurize the maf pipe it doenst register the air the same as it would if it was pre-turbo at atmo. pressure.
That's what I would think too, but other people seem to have to make significant changes even at idle. Like your adding fuel in your 0% column.

Anyway... I'm really curious about all this and others are too prolly, so keep us updated. Thanks.
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:30 PM   #14
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well hot damn. i took my car to turboxs a couple of months back and they couldnt get my MAF stabalized enought to tune my blow-through setup.

I really didnt want to have to retune my car but since I have this nice big hole in my APS pipes for a MAF sensor maybe I will play with speed density just to see how she runs.

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Old 08-04-2006, 02:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWRX
I really didnt want to have to retune my car but since I have this nice big hole in my APS pipes for a MAF sensor maybe I will play with speed density just to see how she runs.[/img]
I think you should, but if not I would be interested in buying your mod'd pipe.
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Old 08-04-2006, 03:43 PM   #16
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Well I just reflashed the ecu and put the utec fuel map to all zeros. I used a flash that used to work well with the older utec software and standard draw-thru maf. The car will hunt for idle pretty bad at 750 so I upped the rpm to 1000 just to make it easier on the engine. The weird thing is the fuel trims when cruising at low speeds stay right near zero. The long-term stuck at zero and the short-trim was going back and forth just slightly. At idle though at 750rpm the STFT would go everywhere like it had no idea how to idle the engine that slowly.I am a little irrritated about that but I'll probably find a way to fix it eventually.

Jeff
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Old 08-04-2006, 04:45 PM   #17
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SD works well.. Just using it on the dyno

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Old 08-04-2006, 05:18 PM   #18
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yea, SD is great, my only problems right now are getting the blow-thru to idle smoothly. Maybe I just need to clock the pipe slightly or something.

Jeff
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Old 08-04-2006, 05:57 PM   #19
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Very nice. I think I'm going to pick up a couple of couplers and install mine on the cold side piping once I get accustomed to the SD software. I've got plenty of room now with my new setup to swap it over.

As far as idle, you really should try picking up the Openecu stuff to fix your injector scaling. It works a billion times better than the UTEC fudging the MAF signal to the ECU.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:10 PM   #20
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I can't resist. I'm gonna try it too. I think I can manipulate the TurboXS FMIC tubing so I don't have to cut anything.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:32 PM   #21
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Freon - I did use ecuedit to make a new map with injector scaling but with the blow-thru the car runs like crap. It goes lean and rich wildly when driving and it cannot idle at 750 at all. The utec maf scaling actually works BETTER than re-flashing the ecu, as surprising as that might be.

2phless - how do you plan to do it without cutting? Do you have the older piping that has the silicone fender pieces or is yours the new one with all aluminum hardpipes?

Jeff
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Old 08-05-2006, 01:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
2phless - how do you plan to do it without cutting? Do you have the older piping that has the silicone fender pieces or is yours the new one with all aluminum hardpipes?

Jeff
I'd love to answer your question... but I'm too busy posting :


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1062283

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Old 08-05-2006, 11:40 AM   #23
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That is a funky install! I guess that is one method of doing it for those with the newer hardpipe fmic piping.

Jeff
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:16 PM   #24
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Well I got my car idling great with the stock ecu flashed back to stock and the utec set to 840/540. By making the "Stock injector size" higher, it effectively reduced the amount of fuel that the utec pulls when in normal ecu-controlled closed-loop, i.e. light load, idle etc. This has the same effect as putting a positive value in the '0' column, so I can now have a map with all zeros and still have the '0' column be tuned perfectly without affecting my OLF SD tuning.

I was monitoring my tirms with ecuExplorer and the LT was 0 and the ST was hovering around zero, but going from like -3 to +3, which is perfectly normal.

Jeff
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyBlueSubaru
Well I just reflashed the ecu and put the utec fuel map to all zeros. I used a flash that used to work well with the older utec software and standard draw-thru maf. The car will hunt for idle pretty bad at 750 so I upped the rpm to 1000 just to make it easier on the engine. The weird thing is the fuel trims when cruising at low speeds stay right near zero. The long-term stuck at zero and the short-trim was going back and forth just slightly. At idle though at 750rpm the STFT would go everywhere like it had no idea how to idle the engine that slowly.I am a little irrritated about that but I'll probably find a way to fix it eventually.

Jeff
I have a very similar issue trying to flash the ECU with modded stock injectors. It will idle ok then hunt then ok ect ect. Can't seem to get it to work well even with scaling the MAF for the intake. Don't quite get it...
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