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Old 08-06-2006, 10:16 AM   #1
rustyzipper
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Default what Hp out of an NA?

I have a block just sitting at a buddies house, but I was wondering , if I were to build the block for NA power, what kind of numbers could I or would I see?

We were even throwing around the idea of forging it out and maybe a setup for nitrous , but seriously we have.... has this been done and is the boxer a bad setup for this application.

The reason I am wondering is that I helped a friend put together his fully forged LT1 with all the goodies , ready for a 250 shot , and I was curious to see if anyone has done something like this with the boxers?

Thanks , RZ
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:21 AM   #2
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There are a ton of good posts about getting power out of the NA block. You just have to weed through people saying "swap" "swap" "stupid" "swap"

Specifically this one by Rally_wgn: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1022154

I have heard that the boxer engine makes a good platform for nitrous due to the layout of the engine and it being symmetrical. I would search for more info on that, I don't know anything for sure and I have not used nitrous on my car.
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:40 AM   #3
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from what i heard, NA build requires way more money then swappin a turbo one in..

but i think going with NA would be awesome... no turbo lag and spoolin time and ****..

if you have lots of money, then go for NA power...
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Old 08-06-2006, 01:07 PM   #4
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why do you think that this would take more $$$ ? The money that I would put towards the turbo , IC , etc would essentially be the same money that I would need to do the engine work, right? so ..... Why wouldn't it take the approximately the same amount of $$ ?

I'll do a little more digging...
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Old 08-06-2006, 02:08 PM   #5
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Yes, but there is still nothing quite like forced induction. NA is like an engine eating air. Turbo force feeds that air. Mm delicious.


Nick
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Old 08-06-2006, 02:51 PM   #6
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Anyone can bolt on a turbo. It takes creativity to build a performance N/A motor. I have been playing with a 2.5 N/A block. No true dyno numbers but seat of the pants testing with myself and other mechanics familiar with WRX and STi power say that it has WRX power. I doubt that it can ever match STi power(w/o NOS) but it is fun to drive and surprises many people.

Specs include,
2000 RS engine
Delta cams
OBX equal length header/ Rallitek catback exhaust
Perfect power 6 EM
4.11 diffs with Legacy trans(soon to be an RS trans)

All this in a '96 Brighton makes for a fun ride
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:31 PM   #7
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First, an RS is not an LT1. The problem you have with any NA motor is that it is only able to draw in and process so much air before it reaches it's peak volumetric efficiency or VE. So the LT1 is a large motor with lots of displacement and it is able to suck in large amounts of air due to it's sheer size. Add in higher-compression and cams and it can do even more damage. Your little low-compression 2.5 has no where near the displacement of an LT1, obviously so it has to work much harder to make the same amount of power, which in this case is pretty impossible in NA trim. Even with bigger cams, wild headwork and high-compression you are very limited. There are lots of things you can do to help like going to an ITB setup, nitrous etc. But you start sacraficing daily drivablity just like on any car, Big lumpy cams, cantankerous intake setup etc, make a car hard to drive. Even then with all the NA tricks in the book, you may still only make 200whp on pump gas and then whatever you block can take on the bottle.
Forced induction however, raises the limit on the VE of your motor by forcing air into the engine. Of course, like anything this introduces, heat and stress so you have to compensate for that with injectors, intercooler, internals etc.
So yes, you might spend just as much to make a wicked NA car as a solid boosted car, but with the turbo you can just up the boost to get more power, as opposed to the NA car where when you reach your VE, that's it, you either dump in nitrous OR change the engine configuration which is costly and labour intensive and may yeild only a few horsepower whereas for every 1lb of boost you add you get something like 10-15hp on the other side generally speaking.
That is why everyone says BOOST.
Now, a well built NA motor is a blast to drive. A high-revving NA car to me, feels better than a boosted one, I think they are more fun to drive and the power is more usable. That is just me though.
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:13 PM   #8
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Thanks guys for the responses.

MarylandX- yes I know this , I have one already , I am just curious , why no one has built the boxer for an all nitrous application

Q-man : sounds like a fun car, I'll bet those diff upgrades will be fun too!

Hatch- I know it is not an LT1 , I never said or compared it to it, I was just mentioning that to show you where my thinking came from.
Also , it is a 2.2t block that I was thinking of .030 over and maybe sleeves with some headwork, so I know that the block should be good for a decent shot of nitrous. This will be backed up to an Andrewtech dogbox and Kaaz rear diff, with some STI axles or custom made axles.
I guess my original question really should have been : What are the biggest numbers people are putting down with a built NA? How much nitrous could one of these blocks theoritically hold?
I would also build the block according to the goal of nitrous as well... such as set the compression ratio a bit lower for the use of nitrous.


Here is my thoughts/hopes/delusions .. what ever:

Have a car that is NA and decent gas milage(200hp-ish)... but then spray the bejesus out of it and get ..350hp and up !!!!! I just think that would be different and neat.... and I know that the car would not be practical , but that is not what I am after...

sooo , you guys think that I could build the 2.2t block to NA specs and get 200hp and then spray it to 350hp and up? or is this a pipe dream...?
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:30 PM   #9
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I think if you don't care about using it on the street. Do it. The 2.2 will be a good start, throw in pistons and some race cams with a really good port job (Rob at Pineapple Racing in Portland, Or, knows a thing or two about porting) and spray. I love the dogbox idea. So just an NA drag car project? Sounds cool. Sorry to talk down on you but there are a few folks in here who are less than knowledgable about motors etc. But it sounds like you have the right idea. But i really do think that at the 200whp range you will be pushing the envelope of what is streetable. I wouldn't want to drive it everyday. But I would say that if money is no object, start with an STI block instead, more displacement and better heads. OR get a stroker kit for an STi but make it a high-comp kit. That would be cool.
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:20 PM   #10
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Hatchbuilder, my experience does come from GM powerplants. I have used a lot of my experience from building them to build up a few different Subaru motors. EA81, ER27, and now EJ25. Cams, fuel in and exhaust out are the biggest keys.

I agree with most of what you said. However, you did forget one little thing. Granted, the small displacement is an issue. But if you are able to get out what you put in then you are a step or two ahead of the game. The biggest mistake I have seen when people try to build small displacement engines is that the intakes, bigger cams, larger injectors, engine management and such are all good but the one thing that gets overlooked the most is a good tuned exhaust system. The turbo's are easy to do as anything that is large diameter and after the turbo and has ZERO back pressure will perform great. But finding the correct flow with back pressure for a N/A motor is key to making bigger power.

I am not trying to contradict you by any means just adding a bit more info.

200hp at the wheels is an easy task for a N/A set up. The impressive thing would be 300hp at the wheels.(My short term goal) which will require porting, larger injectors, higher compression, etc. I think it is doable and can be made to be reliable.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:45 PM   #11
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300whp? Wow. Keep us posted on how that goes. I think the biggest problem NA guys face is just the lack of interest in the platform in general from the aftermarket. A great exhaust would be good, but who is going to build it? The Honda thing was great because everyone was racing them for something like 20years. There was TONS of R&D in that platform. Same with the 4g63 and I think the same can be said for the turbocharged WRX/STi. But the RS? I think most of us NA people with have to go it alone.
After seeing what it has taken to get just 50 extra whp out of these cars to get another 150whp seems... well kinda far fetched but by no means has the envelope been pushed. Maybe a built NA 3-liter 6? I would think a DOHC would be the fist step. This is apples to oranges but Porsche's 2.7 liter makes 290 bhp in the Caymen so Theoretically it should be possible to get close at the crank. I dunno.
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:07 PM   #12
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300whp subaru boxer 4? It would never be streetable. It would need race gas. It probably wouldn't last long seeing as how you would have to spin it to 10000 rpms.
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyzipper
or is this a pipe dream...?
Indeed it is.
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Old 08-06-2006, 11:45 PM   #14
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350 whp on nitrous with a ej22t block is simple. As long as you have the engine management to back it up. I say its simple because with nitrous you are never on the spray for hours on end. And if you are making 350 whp on spray with a 250 shot, you will run out of nitrous in about 60 seconds of spraying.......

nitrous is like boost, only better cause its cooler. I will be making close to 300 whp on my 1990 NA ej22 block in a month or less (cross fingers). I will be boosting to 13 psi and spraying a 100 shot. I have already done about 250 whp. As long as I don't detonate horribly (doubt it), the bottom end of the NA block will hold up perfectly.

So basically, 91-94 block and engine management plus heads plus nitrous =350 whp. Add some luck!
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Old 08-06-2006, 11:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MantoothWes
300whp subaru boxer 4? It would never be streetable. It would need race gas. It probably wouldn't last long seeing as how you would have to spin it to 10000 rpms.
I'm inclined to agree. Does anyone have any information the SYMS Impreza that ran in GT300 JGTC? IIRC, that car made 300hp NA...

NA offers advantages that Turbo does not offer such as instant response, lack of heat buildup, compact packaging and better reliability.

I'm also aiming to build a 200whp EJ25 NA. My plan is modified EL headers for WRX (in the mail, $95 on ebay), MSEFI standalone, lightweight pulley and flywheel, and ITBs (also in the works). Eventually I'm going to delve into the world of build heads, but I'm not really intending to spin fast, but rather to make torque in the midrange.

I've got access to a Dynojet where I work (www.xatracing.com) and will be doing step-by-step readouts of each modification.
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:20 AM   #16
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I thought the JGTC car was an EJ20 turbo? At least, the Cusco car for the last two years has been.
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Old 08-07-2006, 03:19 AM   #17
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I save the pic of the SYMS JGTC wagon for moments like this:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/...28749778phDqZs
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Old 08-07-2006, 01:37 PM   #18
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So what would be the difference in building the motor for NA + N20 ; as opposed to FI ?

We are just talking about introducing more O2 into the chamber , whether it be in a form of a turbo /SC or from a bottle. So if the block can "handle" 25psi through a turbo .. then why not a 250shot?

I know, I know , it is not practical to refill the bottle everytime I want to "have fun" , BUT ...

KOSTAMOJEN: Why mechanically can it not be done?

Lets just say that I could only build get 150-180hp out of the NA block , fine, but why could it not just be built for the NO2 application.

Trust me , I am not some ricer that worships Paul Walker and tries to get "slidewayz" ... that is ghey.....

I just wont to know why it can't be done... practicality aside. If it is just the $$ issue , that is cool , but if the mechanics of the block doesn't allow this application very well then I just want to know why?

-rz
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:28 PM   #19
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The JGTC motor is using several things that havent even been discussed:
1) Direct port fuel injection
2) Individual throttle bodies
3) Completely revised timing belt system

Basically, more custom work was put in that block than anything ive ever heard of anyone doing with an N/A subaru.

As for the N02 stuff on an N/A motor, you could build a motor for that I presume, but it will pop eventually and wont be streetable like every other race engine.

The truth is, if you want a streetable 300whp N/A subaru you need to use one of the 6-cyl motors (EG33 or EZ30-R)
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:05 PM   #20
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ya it might make more sense to start off with 225 CHP and get it up to 300 WHP, rather than start with 165-167 CHP and try to more than double that figure to get 300 WHP. but if you are willing to try, by all means, go for it.

~Josh~
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:10 PM   #21
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Instead of worrying about the 300hp NA pie in the sky, how bout just making the car well-rounded and you will be surprised how fast it is in general. If you spend the money it would take to get that power, you will have a hi-strung, unstreetable, easily broken vehicle that you will end up selling out of frustration. A car like this would be one you will spend all your money on power.

However, if you spent an equal amount on power, suspension, tires, brakes and lightening (which is like adding power) you will be much happier in general with the car. The British Touring Car Champ. used to run Accords, Primieras, Mondeos (like Contour) with 2.0 liter and 300HP NA. But these engines would be miserable on the street... they don't idle good, they are only happy at 10k rpm and would never pass any kind of emissions ...and forget fuel economy.

Well, a subaru 2.5 won't be much different. If use N02, you will grenade on the numbers you are dreaming about. I promise. That stuff is bad for your car, period. Unless it's a track-only, full-on drag car, don't waste your money and time. It won't be streetable, and lets be real...even if you make 300hp NA..what will you do with it? Go try to run with an STi (who has better brakes, suspension, tires, diffs, ...oh...and a BASE of 300hp but probably more with just an ECU map etc)...and guess what else: he probably spent the same on his STi as you did to get 300hp...but his stronger tranny and flat torque curve means he will smoke you at the strip or road course.

An NA 2.5 is what it is.... a good, economical motor with modest power that can be made spirited and fun. You can make a nice, quick and light track car with it...and even surprise people...but don't think you will dominate even if you have 300hp because if you don't have incredible brakes, suspension and grip none of it matters. 200WHP is a stretch but probably achievable...streetable? hmmm....
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen
The JGTC motor is using several things that havent even been discussed:
1) Direct port fuel injection
2) Individual throttle bodies
3) Completely revised timing belt system

Basically, more custom work was put in that block than anything ive ever heard of anyone doing with an N/A subaru.

As for the N02 stuff on an N/A motor, you could build a motor for that I presume, but it will pop eventually and wont be streetable like every other race engine.

The truth is, if you want a streetable 300whp N/A subaru you need to use one of the 6-cyl motors (EG33 or EZ30-R)
So, what you're saying is that if it hasn't been done yet(and you haven't read about it) it can't be done?!?!?
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoAviat
Instead of worrying about the 300hp NA pie in the sky, how bout just making the car well-rounded and you will be surprised how fast it is in general. If you spend the money it would take to get that power, you will have a hi-strung, unstreetable, easily broken vehicle that you will end up selling out of frustration. A car like this would be one you will spend all your money on power.

However, if you spent an equal amount on power, suspension, tires, brakes and lightening (which is like adding power) you will be much happier in general with the car. The British Touring Car Champ. used to run Accords, Primieras, Mondeos (like Contour) with 2.0 liter and 300HP NA. But these engines would be miserable on the street... they don't idle good, they are only happy at 10k rpm and would never pass any kind of emissions ...and forget fuel economy.

Well, a subaru 2.5 won't be much different. If use N02, you will grenade on the numbers you are dreaming about. I promise. That stuff is bad for your car, period. Unless it's a track-only, full-on drag car, don't waste your money and time. It won't be streetable, and lets be real...even if you make 300hp NA..what will you do with it? Go try to run with an STi (who has better brakes, suspension, tires, diffs, ...oh...and a BASE of 300hp but probably more with just an ECU map etc)...and guess what else: he probably spent the same on his STi as you did to get 300hp...but his stronger tranny and flat torque curve means he will smoke you at the strip or road course.

An NA 2.5 is what it is.... a good, economical motor with modest power that can be made spirited and fun. You can make a nice, quick and light track car with it...and even surprise people...but don't think you will dominate even if you have 300hp because if you don't have incredible brakes, suspension and grip none of it matters. 200WHP is a stretch but probably achievable...streetable? hmmm....
Noted, however, I built the '96 Brighton with that in mind. Mild cams, upgraded exhaust, improved ratio's(4.11/1) New suspension(GR-2's and WRX springs), removed everything behind the front seats that wasn't neccessary for operation. Added rear disc brakes amd RSB and front and rear strut bars. I built this for the rally cross tracks here in the NW. It does indeed outrun WRX, STi, Evo's, GTX's, you name it. All that for under $4K. Oh yeah, and it is a DD to boot. I do know that the tracks are different than the street. I can hang up to 90-100mph. After that the turbo's make it look silly. My point is simply this, I think it can be built. I think it will/can be streetable and reliable. Whether you or anyone else believes this "pipe dream" is purely up to the individual.

Thanks for your time
(unsubscribing at this time)

Just 'cause someone else hasn't done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done.
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qman
So, what you're saying is that if it hasn't been done yet(and you haven't read about it) it can't be done?!?!?
Plan on winning the lotto anytime soon???
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:39 PM   #25
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OK, this is what I would do for a NA powered, with lots of nitrous occasionally.

2.2 closed deck or NA block from 90-94 year.

upgraded pistons, but keep the 9.5-1 to 10-1 compression ratio

Ported and Polished DOHC from something (anything is better than stock 2.2 heads)

Upgraded header and intake

SMT6

200 shot of nitrous

AND

A clutch capable of holding 300 torque at 3000 rpm!

This should give you almost 150 whp off nitrous, and a block capable of making 300 whp with the laffy gas.

And this can be done much cheaper than buying "built" NA blocks.
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