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Old 08-07-2006, 11:35 PM   #1
ltjake22
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Question Intake Charge Temp Measurement

Anyone try to get any kind of quantitative information of the intake charge temperature after your TMIC? Obviously there really isn't a lot of real estate to work with. I was thinkin' of throwin' a barbed fitting in the I/C to TB connection sleeve. Seal it with some RTV, or equivalent in order to get a nice seal. I put some fans on my I/C and I want to get some good temp measurements so I can post a good overview of what I did, with a good meansurement of it's gains and cons. With the fans on the I/C is touchable even after long highway driving; where it was never even close before (~150*F turbo-side, that heat soak kicks in fast). Just want to quantitatively provide evidence... Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 08-08-2006, 12:54 AM   #2
hotrod
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It is more practical to simply measure the temperature of the TMIC case right next to where the throttle body hose couples to the TMIC. Just put a bit of insulation over the temp probe and you can easily see the temperature of the case change as you drive. On boost the intercooler mostly acts as a heat sink anyway.

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Old 08-08-2006, 10:15 AM   #3
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I wouldn't use a barbed fitting in the hose conecting the IC and throttle body...I used a compression fitting with the temp probe through it into the airstream. And while a temp sensor in the IC is good to tell you IC temps it won't tell you the air temp out of IC, ...when under load the air temps can shoot up 30* to 40* F higher than "normal" IC out temps, while the IC temps will slowly go up 10* or 20*F when turbo is under load and is puting out over 150*F + above ambient.

EDIT; Some temp. numbers after looking them up in my records.

Last edited by wrxdrvr; 08-08-2006 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:44 AM   #4
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ATP makes a coupler with a fitting already plumbed in, they use it for boost but I am sure you can work with it.
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Old 08-08-2006, 03:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
while the IC temps will slowly go up 3* or 4*F when turbo is under load.
Actually the IC temp changes quite quickly (although there is a time lag which is educational in itself.)

A quick blast from a stop light will cause a temp spike of the IC case about 15 seconds later as the heat is conducted to the case. The IC temp is sort of a moving average of your intake air temp, and gives you a nice stable referece to work with.

In light throttle cruise the IC case will stabilize at about 4-5 deg F above outside air temp. Under load (ie pulling a long hill at highway speed in hot weather) the IC temp will stabilize about 35 deg F above outside air temp.

On the drag strip you will see an IC temp jump of around 12 - 15 degrees increase in IC case temp in the 13 odd seconds it takes to run the quarter.

For example outside air temp 63 deg, IC case temp at starting line76 deg F, IC case temp at end of strip 82 deg F.

On a hot day IC case temp at the starting line with outside air temps of 85 deg F is usually at about 105 -115 deg F at the starting line. This is with an active effort to keep the IC cool by leaving the hood open as much as possible etc.

Upon closing the hood with outside air temps at 85 deg F and the IC case temp at 95 deg F you can watch the IC case temp climb about 2 deg F per min just due to closing the hood.

It may not give exact intake air temp, it gives very useful info that is easy and cheap to capture.

Larry
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Old 08-08-2006, 04:55 PM   #6
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Yes, I agree that the IC core temps are usefull but not really that acurate...as you said it's an average and delayed by about 15 sec. Here is an example from my way of looking at it. A 0-130 MPH pedal to metal run on a 80*F day gave me these numbers for my stock set up.
IC start temp ... 86*F
IC Air out Temp..95*F
IC finnish temp..106*F
IC air out temp..136*F
Turbo out temp..226*F
That works out to about 60% IC efficiency, but if you use the IC temp number it gives you about an 80% efficiency rate. Big difference... But in day to day driving the difference would be small.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:44 PM   #7
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Ya, I agree larry, but the cast aluminum react a bit slower than the air temp. Initial readings taken from a K thermocouple in one of the fins showed a really quick jump of about 15 or so degrees under heavy load, but surface temp readings of the cast part took some time. I think i'm just going to put a compression fitting in there. Doesn't it make more sense to capture the temp of the air going into the engine? Or should it just be deduced from a cooler aluminum temp?

That thermocouple set up was giving me false information because as soon as i turned the fans on the I/C temp shot up like 10-20 degrees F. I think this was because you were now pushing hot air past it and grabbing convection as well as the conduction and radiation from the fins. Wouldn't you think?



Edit: Totally forgot part of my post

Last edited by ltjake22; 08-09-2006 at 08:48 PM. Reason: forgot part of my post
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:01 AM   #8
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Quote:
Doesn't it make more sense to capture the temp of the air going into the engine? Or should it just be deduced from a cooler aluminum temp?
Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I started measuring TMIC case temp because I was interested in finding ways to keep the IC as cool as possible ( heat soak etc.) so it could do its job better. In that case I was measuring precisely what I wanted to monitor. As a side benefit, I got a reasonable approximation of the intake are temp out of the intercooler.

Secondly it cost me less than $10 to buy a cheap indoor outdoor thermometer, and about 10 min to install the thermometer.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 08-10-2006 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:33 AM   #9
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It would cost a metric butt ton of cash to be able to measure the actual outlet temp with enough speed to get accurate results. Labview makes highspeed data acquisition equipment that could but even a thermocouple has limits. Hotrod is correct imho, the intercooler outlet tank would be your most stable temp and guidline. The air temp can change very quickly (think fractions of a second) as boost rises and even the most expensive instruments have heat transfer limits.

Jacob
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by di2co
It would cost a metric butt ton of cash to be able to measure the actual outlet temp with enough speed to get accurate results. Labview makes highspeed data acquisition equipment that could but even a thermocouple has limits. Hotrod is correct imho, the intercooler outlet tank would be your most stable temp and guidline. The air temp can change very quickly (think fractions of a second) as boost rises and even the most expensive instruments have heat transfer limits.

Jacob
Cost me 90$ including compression fittings and about 1 1/2 hours of my time to put them in. One into Y hose to measure air temps going into IC and one into throttle hose from IC to measure air temp out of IC. Had them in for 2 years with no trouble. If you are satisfied with having an "indication" of how hot the air out of IC is and what the IC temps are doing, Then you don't need a sensor in the airflow. But as I said before the air temps out of IC can be up to 20% different. http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cgi-bi...duct=888800038 .
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxdrvr
Cost me 90$ including compression fittings and about 1 1/2 hours of my time to put them in. One into Y hose to measure air temps going into IC and one into throttle hose from IC to measure air temp out of IC. Had them in for 2 years with no trouble. If you are satisfied with having an "indication" of how hot the air out of IC is and what the IC temps are doing, Then you don't need a sensor in the airflow. But as I said before the air temps out of IC can be up to 20% different. http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cgi-bi...duct=888800038 .

I agree, that's what I was trying to point out. An indication is one thing (and a good indication of air temps) but the actual air temp is going to change much quicker than the endtank on the intercooler. No matter which thermocouple you use there is still a delay between the time the media (in this case air) heats up and the time the thermocouple heats up. It's not instant. Even if you put the thermocouple in the air flow coming out of the intercooler you would need to run at full throttle for a "minute" to get an accurate reading. Otherwise the thermocouple isn't going have enough time to reach the same temperature as the air flowing over it before the air starts to "cool" as you come off boost because you're being pulled over .

Jacob
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Old 08-20-2010, 02:12 PM   #12
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Sorry to dig up a super old thread, but just found this and desided to post info and some tests of my own.

I have had interest for some time now to measure and monitor charge air temperatures and intercooler efficiency. Finally got to it, here's some info about the setup and the results.

First I ordered a couple of good quality Auber temperature monitors/controllers:


The main idea is to be able to monitor temperatures before, and after intercooler.

I ordered another center vent panel to modify for the meters:



Then I took a couple of meters of standard shielded K-type thermocouple wire. By welding or just tying together the exposed leads results in extremely good, small and fast acting sensor for air temp measurements:


First sensor went in right after turbo. I was a bit worried if the sensor lead might cause any boost leak but it was completely air tight, no worries here:


And the other sensor went in after the cooler right through the silicone coupler secured with clamp:






So, here's a small video clip of how the temperatures behave during acceleration. Left display shows temperature in C right after turbo, right display shows temperature after intercooler right before throttle body.

In the clip ambient temperature is +15C, IAT is +16C (around 60F), and I have driven a while slowly to let temps settle.

The number on the left display really is the temp after turbo, not the speed! Nice to have an intercooler in a turbocharged car, right?

The clip shows temps (again in C) before ic rising from about 120F to over 240F in just a couple of seconds while ic output remains quite steady around 80F.

Last edited by foobari; 09-15-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:05 PM   #13
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Mach V has something similar. Pre and post intercooler charge temps.

http://www.fastwrx.com/mavdiintega.html
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Old 08-22-2010, 06:06 AM   #14
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Very cool setup you designed foobari. Any info on where you sourced your parts?
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:08 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by oguitar View Post
Very cool setup you designed foobari. Any info on where you sourced your parts?
Thanks! It's really interesting to see the temps during different driving situations.

Auber Instruments:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...products_id=19

K-Thermocouple lead:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=144
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:23 AM   #16
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foobari I have another question. How do those thermocouples work again? Do you just plug one side into the sensor and run the other end to the spot you want to measure? Is there any voltage needed for the thermocouples? Most thermocouple I have seen need a voltage source to work. Thanks for the help.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:30 PM   #17
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foobari I have another question. How do those thermocouples work again? Do you just plug one side into the sensor and run the other end to the spot you want to measure? Is there any voltage needed for the thermocouples? Most thermocouple I have seen need a voltage source to work. Thanks for the help.
It's really easy... the thermocouple lead has two wires in it. You just wrap the red/yellow together, this now acts as the sensor. At the other end you connect the red/yellow to the meter or controller. That's it.
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:31 PM   #18
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Thank you sir. I will be trying this out on a little project I will be working on.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:38 PM   #19
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You can see some of the results I've obtained with my setup here.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...-ic-build.html
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:12 AM   #20
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Bumping old thread. Just ordered a couple of those multimeters and enough K type thermocouplers to monitor temps the same as you did before and after the intercooler. I've got a bit of a knock problem in 4th and 5th gear and I'm going to change to AWIC in the near future. I'm dying to know if my intercooler is working considering aside from the 02/03 hood scoop bolted to the hood of my 91 legacy may or may not be getting adequate airflow being in a bit of a dead zone (I'm theorizing) and the fact that there's no ducting below it to the intercooler so it's just blowing onto and around the intercooler at this point. Then I may add some foam or a splitter and see if I can improve it's function and finally I will put together a custom AWIC with a reservoir to avoid heatsoak as much as possible and I want to know whether the money spent on the AWIC system was worth the results I wind up with.

I'm excited. Should learn a lot and it'll be fun too. Thanks for posting this write-up and the links to buy the tools needed. Prosport sells a dual intake temp gauge for $160 that comes with probes but on this website they don't give enough info or any real pictures of what it comes with and what sensors it's using. I'd like to know because some of these sensors being used require tapping into a metal surface to thread the sensor into and I don't think I want to do that if I can just use a thermocoupler and have a semi-permanent setup, easily removed if I need to. Plus I only paid $121 after shipping for the two multimeters and k-type thermocouples.

http://www.fastwrx.com/prduintega.html

I've been wanting to do this for a long time. I've also got one of those gauges that measures air pressure that you can hook up a hose to both holes and measure the pressure difference to see if you're getting flow through your intercooler but I haven't tried that out yet.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:31 AM   #21
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Spent my whole day off installing my new thermocouple temp probes and a pair of multimeters which can be wired up to several things including these thermocouples which can be used for either intake or exhaust temps and maybe even oil temp and water temp and you can also use them to monitor boost and Air/Fuel ratio. Pretty neat. $120 shipped for two of them and the thermocouple wiring. 7 hours of work and it works great and looks awesome too.

Here we have the package contents as it arrived today. 2x Auber Automobile Multimeter which can be purchased here: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...products_id=19

And some K Type Thermocouple wires which are made up of a pair of wires that are sheathed in fiberglass and I also got some that have an extra braided stainless jacket which I used under the hood for extra protection. They can be purchased from the same company here: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=144 and here: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=169








Here's a panel I fabbed up to replace my double din compartment and mount the multimeters in. The top one is measuring just before the intercooler and the bottom measures temps right after the intercooler.








It's a very simple system. You just wire up the positive and negative wires to the multimeters and wire up power and ground and I chose to also wire up illumination so it dims at night. Then you run the thermocouple wires through your firewall to your desired location in your intake system. Strip back some of the jacket and fiberglass sheath and twist the two wires together. Insert them into the intake and button everything back up and you're good to go. One wire is coated in a certain type of metal like nickel or something and the other wire is coated in another type of sensitive metal and when you twist them together they react to the temperature of the air and creative a very small voltage which is read by the multimeter and converted to a temperature reading. Pretty neat.









Here's a few install pics of the gauges. Unfortunately they were taken at night since it took me all day to do the job and they don't really do the install justice. It actually looks really nice in person. The last picture is after I had drive 25-30 miles and turned the car off for a minute.



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Old 09-27-2012, 02:31 AM   #22
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It works really well! The thermocouples react surprisingly quick which is good. I don't know if the turbo itself got hotter or if the intercooler somehow started to get heatsoaked but after about 20 miles it started to climb in temp which was strange I though. It was about 50-55 F outside and for the first 2/3 of the trip (with several 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th gear pulls it would quickly level out afterwards to about 110 before and 75-80 after the intercooler but then by the time I got home which was pretty much all cruising at 50-60 mph on the way back it was at 140 before and 100-110 after the intercooler.

Temps reached a max of 245 on the freeway in 4th gear and 5th gear with a reading of about 125 after the intercooler. Right before I got home I went up the hill I live in and did a 3rd through 4th pull and saw it hit nearly 270 degrees and probably 140 after.

So in conclusion, without knowing what are ideal temps with a TMIC setup like this I would have to say it seems as though the intercooler is doing a better job than I thought it was. Although I'm seeing knock in 4th and 5th gear from probably 4,000-6,000 RPM which I'm guessing is from carbon buildup on the pistons but that's just a shot in the dark. I went to one heat range colder plugs and that didn't stop it.

I wonder if an AWIC with a reservoir would pull significantly lower temps.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:58 PM   #23
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It works really well! The thermocouples react surprisingly quick which is good. I don't know if the turbo itself got hotter or if the intercooler somehow started to get heatsoaked but after about 20 miles it started to climb in temp which was strange I though. It was about 50-55 F outside and for the first 2/3 of the trip (with several 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th gear pulls it would quickly level out afterwards to about 110 before and 75-80 after the intercooler but then by the time I got home which was pretty much all cruising at 50-60 mph on the way back it was at 140 before and 100-110 after the intercooler.

Temps reached a max of 245 on the freeway in 4th gear and 5th gear with a reading of about 125 after the intercooler. Right before I got home I went up the hill I live in and did a 3rd through 4th pull and saw it hit nearly 270 degrees and probably 140 after.

So in conclusion, without knowing what are ideal temps with a TMIC setup like this I would have to say it seems as though the intercooler is doing a better job than I thought it was. Although I'm seeing knock in 4th and 5th gear from probably 4,000-6,000 RPM which I'm guessing is from carbon buildup on the pistons but that's just a shot in the dark. I went to one heat range colder plugs and that didn't stop it.

I wonder if an AWIC with a reservoir would pull significantly lower temps.
An AWIC for sure it will lower your temperatures,but its expensive and complicated.
In your case, i think it would be much easier(and also cheaper), to improve the effectiveness of your TM I/C.or to change to a biger one.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...-ic-build.html
Take a look also on this thread
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:24 PM   #24
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I realize it's complicated but it's not that bad. I'd certainly prefer it over FMIC piping all over the place and with a FMIC I'd have to cut my bumper beam and all that crap. TMIC is nice but it suffers heat soak too much without good ducting which I don't have and I want to put my other hood on without a scoop for a much cleaner stealth look.
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