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Old 08-08-2006, 09:43 PM   #1
djerickd
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Default SMC kit running 100% methanol tune?

A few questions based on my observations of a friends "tooned" car...

1. Is 100% meth even safe for SMC's flojet pump?
2. Why would one tune a car on 100% meth KNOWING that it boils at 160 degrees. Then, after disappointing results at the dragstrip tuner suggests to "wrap the bottle, it was probably boiling!" Thoughts?
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:34 AM   #2
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1) People have run 100% meth with no problems. I've actually never heard of any problems from this, but there are obviously dangers.
2)Maybe because it evaporates quicker then with water, which cools things down(like an ic spray)?

Was his car dyno tuned? Did he like the results? Maybe he just had a bad run at the track?

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Old 08-09-2006, 10:55 AM   #3
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1. I was thinking more about the seals in the Flojet pump disintegrating over time...
2. I personally would have run 50/50, if I had an SMC kit since the tank is inthe engine bay... If the tank was in teh trunk maybe str8 ,eth ut it still gets rally hot back there also

His car was road tuned on a butt dyno
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:20 AM   #4
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What are his mods? Any chance utec+wbo2? I live in the area(tampa) if he wants some tweeking done(and has a utec+wbo2).

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Old 08-09-2006, 12:22 PM   #5
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He's running an AccessPort, I didn't know you were in Tampa also?
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:42 PM   #6
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Yeh.... I've never tuned an accesport. Does he have a wbo2 unit? If so, what a/f ratio is he running? If not, how did they tune the car?

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Old 08-09-2006, 03:05 PM   #7
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The tuner provided the WBO2, I'm not sure of the a/f.

I'm just wondering why a tuner would push 100% meth knowing it boils when it's sitting under a hot hood. Has anyone else ran into this issue with an SMC or any other kit running 100% meth in an underhood tank?
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:27 PM   #8
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I've heard of peoples pumps breaking and/or not working after a short time with smc kits. Not sure if it was the old pump, or the new pump, or if it makes a difference. Here are a few interesting things I've noticed though. Shurflo pumps which many kits use are not ment to run above 180F(some lower) and aren't ment to have liquid which is hotter then that going through them. Also, in most cars, the fuel pump and tank are not located in the engine compartment.

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Old 08-09-2006, 03:34 PM   #9
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I think it's the NEW pump, it's a black Flojet brand pump. I think the old pumps looked more like an goldish-colored OEM fuel pump... I KNOW those were crap.

Do you think a windshield washer tank full of methyl alcohol will actually boil under a hot hood?
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
I think it's the NEW pump, it's a black Flojet brand pump. I think the old pumps looked more like an goldish-colored OEM fuel pump... I KNOW those were crap.

Do you think a windshield washer tank full of methyl alcohol will actually boil under a hot hood?
i do not. Throw some distilled water ice cubes in there while staging
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:05 PM   #11
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I'm sure that would help if you put some water in it, but wouldn't that affect the tune?

I know when I go meth I'm doing 50/50 with water...
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:53 AM   #12
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I had the smc kit on my 02 wrx and I was running 100% methanol. The only concern I had was if I was stuck in traffic and it was hot outside (100F plus) I could smell the methanol vapors if I rolled down the driver window. Other than that I had no problems I live in an area that gets up to 118F in the summer and it worked fine. Plastic is an excellent insulator and if the meth is evaporating it's going to take a lot of heat to get it to boil (the conversion of specific heat to latent heat will keep it "cool"). I just worried about filling my engine bay with methanol fumes while sitting still for long period in which case it would only take an ignition source to turn my car into a firecracker.

Jacob
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:07 AM   #13
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Well water boils at 100 C/212 F and methanol boils at 64.5 C/148 F, I wonder if you were smelling it cooking!
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
Well water boils at 100 C/212 F and methanol boils at 64.5 C/148 F, I wonder if you were smelling it cooking!

I was still seeing the same pressure and performance from the system which leads me to believe that it was not close to saturation temperature (temperature a given liquid will boil at a given pressure). If it was starting to actually boil there is good chance it would flash instantly in the pump suction (lower dynamic pressure) and the pump would not pump. Yes I know that methanol will boil at 148F (at sea level) but I also am aware of the fact that it takes EXTRA energy to convert a liquid to vapor than just what you can read on a thermometer. Can you have water at 212F at sea level? Of couse if you only apply enough energy to heat it to that point (it will of course cool off) but not enough to cause a phase change. Also under atmospheric conditions and under normal real world conditions it would take much more thermal energy to raise 1lb of water to 1lb of water vapor than one would think considering the btu's definition. This is due to the fact that some of the water will evaporate, converting specific heat to latent heat during the phase change. I was less worried about it "cooking" than I was it just evaporating. Even if a liquid is not boiling it can still evaporate (cooling towers as an example), methanol evaporating and filling the engine bay is bad. Even if you mix methanol with water it will still reach saturation temperature at the same point, you haven't changed the chemical properties by adding water. Although water has a much higher specific heat than methanol as well as taking much more latent heat to phase change.

Jacob

Last edited by di2co; 08-10-2006 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 08-10-2006, 08:46 AM   #15
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I have an air temp probe about 7 inches in front of the nozzel. on the dyno (car is plenty hot) when we began tuning with the smc 50/50 we would watch the temp go down, alot. Thats with the 50/50 very very warm. Now that the em is fine (thanks to utec, maxed out streeTuner/maf at 15psi/368whp) and I will be trying the ice cube thingy soon as our trany issue get figured out( next weekend !). Ill post various temp/results if anyone is interested.
Cheers
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Old 08-10-2006, 08:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by di2co
I was still seeing the same pressure and performance from the system which leads me to believe that it was not close to saturation temperature (temperature a given liquid will boil at a given pressure). If it was starting to actually boil there is good chance it would flash instantly in the pump suction (lower dynamic pressure) and the pump would not pump. Yes I know that methanol will boil at 148F (at sea level) but I also am aware of the fact that it takes EXTRA energy to convert a liquid to vapor than just what you can read on a thermometer. Can you have water at 212F at sea level? Of couse if you only apply enough energy to heat it to that point (it will of course cool off) but not enough to cause a phase change. Also under atmospheric conditions and under normal real world conditions it would take much more thermal energy to raise 1lb of water to 1lb of water vapor than one would think considering the btu's definition. This is due to the fact that some of the water will evaporate, converting specific heat to latent heat during the phase change. I was less worried about it "cooking" than I was it just evaporating. Even if a liquid is not boiling it can still evaporate (cooling towers as an example), methanol evaporating and filling the engine bay is bad. Even if you mix methanol with water it will still reach saturation temperature at the same point, you haven't changed the chemical properties by adding water. Although water has a much higher specific heat than methanol as well as taking much more latent heat to phase change.

Jacob
So basically the tuner realy doesn't know what he's talking about right?
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Old 08-10-2006, 07:53 PM   #17
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If it is boiling then it would still be boiling after you pop your hood, engine bay temps aren't going to cool off that quickly. I never saw my meth boil and I live in an area that was seeing ambient temps in excess of 110F. I guess it is possible but I'm sure it would pop the top off the windshield washer tank that the meth is in. If it was boiling pressure inside would be rising much faster than it would be able to escape around the cap. This is the same principle as a whistling tea pot; water boils, builds pressure, and comes out the oriface in the top making the wistle sound.

Jacob
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Old 08-10-2006, 10:04 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
So basically the tuner realy doesn't know what he's talking about right?
That proves it to me, thanks ya'll
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Old 08-13-2006, 12:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
I'm just wondering why a tuner would push 100% meth knowing it boils when it's sitting under a hot hood. Has anyone else ran into this issue with an SMC or any other kit running 100% meth in an underhood tank?
Most tuners don't realize it's going to boil.. I've had this happen to me up here in New Jersey. One factor is that most guys are running an FMIC or storing the methanol in the trunk in the IC water tank. With an FMIC you're probably not going to get the same high temps as with the TMIC - which does a fine job of keeping all of the heat under the hood.

SMC doesn't even suggest running pure meth - but methanol will make the most power so that's why I run it.
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #20
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100% Meth Boiling Point 147 deg, freez Point I have a temp gauge to monitor my setup. My setup is under the hood under my SPT intake and I have the SPT heatshield to keep it as shielded from the turbo heat as possible.
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Old 08-14-2006, 04:13 AM   #21
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I just had my car tuned on and off 100% meth with a SMC kit for WRX. Steve there said running strait meth can cause long term seal and diaphram swelling and failure in the pump. New rubber compounds are in the works to be released in a month or so.
My results IIRC (dyno printer down, will get sheets soon.) 2 hours of pulls. Mustang dyno, 112*F ambient indoors.
91 oct pump only 336whp
91 & 100% meth 407 whp
100oct only 400 whp
100oct & meth 480 whp

Now as far as why my pump never failed on the dyno (hood open) but would after 1/2 hour of driving (hood shut) rez located is the stock WW rez bottle same location.
I tonight waited until the pump failed, opened the hood and looked at the meth in the rez. It was the start of boiling. About a bubble a second.
So, guess I found my problem and need to get a STI rez for the trunk.
Wouldn't want to have it start boiling and stop spraying in the middle of a run.
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Old 08-14-2006, 10:55 AM   #22
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oh wow, there IS a flaw in the system...
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Old 08-14-2006, 02:37 PM   #23
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Another option is to dilute the meth with some water and see what happens. I'm sure if I dilute too much I will have to tweek the tune some. But I'm willing to give it a try. I also have some denatured alcohol to play with too.

I don't know if its such a flaw in the system because my engine bay is far from stock, and the IC to TB piping runs right next to the meth rez. And after some runs you cant touch that piping for too long without burning yourself. SMC has some of the best customer service I have seen so far. I plan to give Steve a call to day and let him know whats up.

Last edited by mycal; 08-14-2006 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 08-14-2006, 03:15 PM   #24
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Let me know what Steve says!
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:54 PM   #25
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Spoke with Steve today. He will build me a STI IC rez for the meth, redo the wireing harness, extend the SS fuel line from pump to TB. I have to supply him with the STI rez and my current kit for swap. I could do this myself yet the price I was quoted was worth it as long as done in a quick manor. So far they have been totally stand up.

So meanwhile, today I filled the tank with 50%meth/50% RO water (should I use distilled? Why?)
Car felt just as strong, although I didn't dyno it, and AFR's were a bit leaner if anything changed. 11.5-11.8 AFR's WOT on 91 octane and spraying. Running 26 psi of boost (GT35R) NO KNOCK !!!! NO PUMP FAIL !!!!! Even after about 45 min of boostin around town here in Las Vegas's desert mid day with the AC full blast. FUN!!!

So, "my car and set up" subjectivly runs the same with a %50/50 mix as to 100% meth. Less problems, yet just as "adictive" lol
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