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Old 08-21-2006, 07:30 AM   #51
mycal
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well, its been several days now using the 50/50 instead of the 100%. No pump failure.
Same tune, no knock. Put 100% in for a race and after shuting the hood, pump failed after 20minutes of cruising. Looked at the rez, same thing. Slow little bubbles coming up. (like one every 1.5-2sec) "guess" Let the engine cool 20 minutes, pump worked. Since then have been running 50/50 without pump failure at all. those are the real world facts. Theorize how and why it happened if you like. I'm fine with just knowing how to keep the pump from failing. No more 100%. Still would like to try a trunk mount sti ic rez with 100% to see if that works.

Peace
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Old 08-21-2006, 09:50 AM   #52
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Wow, nice work! I discovered a flaw!
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Old 08-21-2006, 09:54 AM   #53
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Even though changing the mix might have helped(I don't doubt that it did), the problem is obviously with the setup. Why not just move the tank(and possibly pump, or get a new tank, or whatever) if it will let you run the mix you want(or are tuned for) and avoid problems like you've had? Am I the only one who doesn't understand this?

peace

Last edited by hippy; 08-21-2006 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:12 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Even though changing the mix might have helped(I don't doubt that it did), the problem is obviously with the setup. Why not just move the tank(and possibly pump, or get a new tank, or whatever) if it will let you run the mix you want(or are tuned for) and avoid problems like you've had? Am I the only one who doesn't understand this?

peace
Thats a great idea Hippy, but SMC's kit is designed to use the stock washer bottle as the resivoir. That's what makes the kit so stealthy and easy to install. It works fine spraying just water or 50/50. 100% meth in hot weather causes a problem.
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:29 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
Thats a great idea Hippy, but SMC's kit is designed to use the stock washer bottle as the resivoir. That's what makes the kit so stealthy and easy to install. It works fine spraying just water or 50/50. 100% meth in hot weather causes a problem.
That's my point. Imo hot weather is not the problem. The setup of the system causes the problem. You should be able to run 100% meth any time of the year if that's what you wanted to do when you baught the kit. Smc kits didn't even run water at all for a while. Everyone with an smc kit ran 100% alc with the injection pump and tank in the engine compartment. Not that this is good, but the point is that they were all supposed to be running 100% meth. Maybe the new pump that is water friendly is the problem? Maybe people had problems with the older kits too?

I know why the tank is where it is. I know it will cost a person with an smc kit some money to use a different tank location, and it's also a bit of an inconvenience. Imo it's worth it to possibly avoid problems, have a better working kit, and have a pump that might last longer. Imagine the pump always running hotter then it would if the tank and pump weren't in the engine compartment. On the other hand, if you move the tank, the liquid injected being cooler. You also probably wouldn't have to worry if switching to 50/50 actually fixed the problem(or if it's about to randomly happen when running the kit for a little longer then normal), or how much performance you lost when switching to 50/50 since your car is still tuned for 100% alc.

peace
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:34 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Hot weather does not cause the problem. The setup of the system causes the problem. You should be able to run 100% meth if that's what you wanted to do when you baught the kit. Smc kits didn't even used to run water at all. They all used to be 100% alc with the injection pump and tank in the engine compartment.

I know why the tank is where it is. I know it will cost a person with an smc kit some money to use a different tank location, and it's also a bit of an inconvenience. Imo it's worth it to possibly avoid problems, have a better working kit, and have a pump that might last longer. Imagine the pump always running hotter then it would if the tank and pump weren't in the engine compartment. Imagine the liquid injected being cooler. Imagine not having to worry if switching to 50/50 actually fixed the problem, or how much performance you lost when switching to 50/50 since your car is still tuned for meth.

peace
+1 agreed, the setup is flawed!
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Old 08-21-2006, 11:21 AM   #57
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^^^I do plan to move it. Just a matter of time and money. I'll let you know when I do and how it goes. Steve at SMC even said he would build it for me when I send him the sti ic rez. Just short on cash as I (puts on flame suit) bought a new evo IX. And time since I'm working lots of OT for my wedding coming up. Its working on the 50/50, so be it for now.
PS my fiance drives the Evo so easy on the flames please. lol
Not to mention, I ran my best time on the 50/50 last friday. Even compared to my old C-16 map Clark tuned last November. I'm happy But not satisfied.
Peace
edit: after reading over, wanted to add that Clark also tuned the new meth maps, and has been the only tuner on this car. Just this time it was tuned in the heat, last it was winter. Car seems stronger now in the heat. lol go figure

Last edited by mycal; 08-28-2006 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:07 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mycal
well, its been several days now using the 50/50 instead of the 100%. No pump failure.
Same tune, no knock. Put 100% in for a race and after shuting the hood, pump failed after 20minutes of cruising. Looked at the rez, same thing. Slow little bubbles coming up. (like one every 1.5-2sec) "guess" Let the engine cool 20 minutes, pump worked. Since then have been running 50/50 without pump failure at all. those are the real world facts. Theorize how and why it happened if you like. I'm fine with just knowing how to keep the pump from failing. No more 100%. Still would like to try a trunk mount sti ic rez with 100% to see if that works.

Peace

It's supposed to be 112F here this week, I'm going to datalog my trunk temps in the sun using a fluke and a thermocouple just to see for myself. I'm probably going to run at least 20% water though since I really don't want to be driving around with 12L of methanol in my trunk. Sounds to me like you're getting close enough to saturation temp to cavitate the pump. You might try just insulating the tank some since you would only need to keep it a few degrees cooler to prevent that. It would be easy and cheap to test. Just get some fiberglass insulation with the reflective backing from home depot or lowes (the cheapest and smallest quantity would probably be found in the water heater section). Wrap that around the tank shiny side out and close the hood. Let the car idle for a bit and test the pump, if it works you can always find a better looking solution which will probably be cheaper than changing tanks and relocating to the trunk. IMHO if you're happy with the way it's running on 50/50 just leave it and save yourself some cash.

Jacob
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Old 08-22-2006, 12:16 PM   #59
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^^^thanks. as for the 50/50. Yip, runs great and I'm happy. The dyno shop owes me some time so I might even see the whp difference between the two. I do like saving $, and hate tearing apart somthing I just recently installed thats working fine and saving me $ on meth. lol I think were thinking alike in that respect.
Peace
Boostin
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:45 PM   #60
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Having to run 50/50 cause the meth was too hot is working fine? Not that running 50/50 is bad, but I don't get why you guys don't see the problem here. If your turbo was making the air way too hot for the engine, would you have an intercooler that just makes the air cool enough so nothing bad happens, or would you use one that isn't right on the edge of killing your engine? I don't see how this is any different. Imo because of this, rapping the tank and/or using 50/50 is not the anwser you guys would normally use, so why use it in this situation? Or is everything about your car right on the edge of something bad happening? Is having the tank and/or pump in the engine compartment worth your system possibly not working when it should? Hundreds of dollars for a tune, hundreds for the kit, a lot for a new engine in the future, and you won't pay $20 to make sure the kit works right?
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:51 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
Having to run 50/50 cause the meth was too hot is working fine? Not that running 50/50 is bad, but I don't get why you guys don't see the problem here. If your turbo was making the air way too hot for the engine, would you have an intercooler that just makes the air cool enough so nothing bad happens, or would you use one that isn't right on the edge of killing your engine? I don't see how this is any different. Imo because of this, rapping the tank and/or using 50/50 is not the anwser you guys would normally use, so why use it in this situation? Or is everything about your car right on the edge of something bad happening? Is having the tank and/or pump in the engine compartment worth your system possibly not working when it should? Hundreds of dollars for a tune, hundreds for the kit, a lot for a new engine in the future, and you won't pay $20 to make sure the kit works right?
+1, I would hope the SMC kit would work properly running 100% meth in hot weather. But it doesn't, not really SMC's fault, it's just the facts...
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:46 PM   #62
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+1 However switching to h2o only during the hotest weather and switching maps is the real way to go. If only I could figure out a way to have 2 tanks in one with 2 injectors and two seperate pumps, then could do everything with the touch of a button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djerickd
+1, I would hope the SMC kit would work properly running 100% meth in hot weather. But it doesn't, not really SMC's fault, it's just the facts...
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:55 PM   #63
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Any one know the boiling point of 50/50 water/meth?
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:42 PM   #64
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The alc would still boil at the same temp. The water would just stop it from getting to that temp as quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dibblejr
+1 However switching to h2o only during the hotest weather and switching maps is the real way to go.
Running what you want when you want would be the way to go. Not saying that alc is better then water, or the other way around, but if someone who's a supplier of smc kits sells you one then tunes it for/with 100% alc, it should work. If it doesn't, imo that is a combination of the tuners and smc's fault. Smc kits are advertised as alc kits, not 50/50 or water injection kits. Course the people at smc have been making kits for a long time, so it's not their fault if a kit doesn't flow and an engine breaks. Or is it? Maybe they should give their customers the parts to make the kit work correctly?

Can't say I'm not happy to see problems with smc kits. Anywhoo, here's a quote from an old thread, in case anyone is interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMC
....Sorry to come down on you Hippy, but my long term testing and experience with alcohol injection outweigh many "theories" and naysayers that don't know better. I'm still waiting for someone to take advantage of our money back guarantee with over 1,000 systems in use. Cause the S*#T WORKS.
Haha, he said it worked. Here's the thread in case anyone is interested. It has little to do with their kits, but smc does come off as not wanting anyone to ever run any % water. If I were your friend, I would get my money back for the kit, the tune, and the install if the "tuner" did the install.

To answer smc's other question in the thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMC
Why do you think you're such an expert on water/alky injection????....
I don't, but I made a kit that worked on the first try. Didn't take years of testing either(I love it when certain injection companies say long term testing ). Here's a link to a thread that might help your friend make a diy(or his) injection kit that works(or work)without needing to change the liquid. Course if he doesn't care what he runs, the "tuner" should at least retune his car on 50/50 for free. Course this is just my opinion........

hippy

Last edited by hippy; 08-22-2006 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 08-22-2006, 06:36 PM   #65
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I suggest running water and meth mixed. It saves the pump as pointed out. The Water does not burn and removes alot of heat from the cyl out the tail pipe. Another thing that most are not thinking about is that Alcohol washes oil from the top end of the motor. This is why engines that run on alcohol use special oil to combat this. A major drawback for an Alcohol race engine. Although short term you are ok but long term might be different. It might be a good idea to add a Quart of Royal purple Nitro oil to the mix to combat this.

http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/rpsro.html

C
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:14 PM   #66
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You gotta watch out for the SMC pumps... The seals tend to go when you run meth through them. SMC is working on a new seal but until then, they are prone to leaking.

I bought mine used and when I went to get it tuned, it was leaking bad. Luckily, SMC overnighted me a brand new pump for free.
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:34 PM   #67
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Once again www.alkycontrol.com has pumps that will not fail with straight meth and kits for 05/06 STi.
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Old 08-22-2006, 09:08 PM   #68
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I tested my theory about trunk temps today. I work at a naval air weapons reseach facility so I couldn't take a picture of the fluke so you'll have to take my word for it. After sitting in the sun for 4 hours (I went to lunch else it would have been 9) in 108F heat (as recorded by our weather station) my trunk temp was 131F and change. Needless to say I will be using a 50/50 mix to help prevent filling my trunk with flamable vapors.

Jacob
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Old 08-22-2006, 09:59 PM   #69
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But the alc still vaporises at the same temp? Are you just saying that there will be half(maybe less) as many alc vapors with 50/50? That does make sense to me.... What about a place like in front of the wheel well? Do you think a tank would get as hot there as in the trunk or engine compartment? Is your pump in the trunk too? Would you run 100% if your tank wasn't in your trunk?

hippy

Last edited by hippy; 08-22-2006 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 08-22-2006, 10:59 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
But the alc still vaporises at the same temp? Are you just saying that there will be half(maybe less) as many alc vapors with 50/50? That does make sense to me.... What about a place like in front of the wheel well? Do you think a tank would get as hot there as in the trunk or engine compartment? Is your pump in the trunk too? Would you run 100% if your tank wasn't in your trunk?

hippy

100% meth will generate more vapors than any mix. This is because even though the meth will evaporate at a higher rate for a given temperature the water is still evaporating. When water evaporates it converts much more thermal energy to latent heat and would cool the total mix much more as it does so. I'm planning on having the pump attached directly to the spec-c tank (like someone posted in this forum earlier) in the trunk. There will still be vapors but not nearly as much. Also we just got a VP station w/ 100oct at the pump here in my BFE town. I plan to run 100oct and 50/50 at the track. I'm kind of in a s**tty situation though.... I need as much octane as I can get but the climate I live in can use as much cooling as possible. Water WILL cool better than methanol it has a higher specific heat it has to. If you take a pound of water and a pound of methanol it will take more energy to heat the water as it would the methanol given the same ending temperature. I might try both though since I could just put in 2 gal of meth and tune and then add distilled water and tune. I'll let you guys know the results when I have them. I live in BFE so I'm waiting till I have everything (EL header, ewg, bigger tmic, and maybe injectors) to make the 120 mile drive to get tuned.

Jacob
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:20 PM   #71
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for what its worth i have been running 100% meth for about a month on the smc sti trunk i/c spray kit. the guys at enginelogics in houston suggested no other way than straight meth. made ten passes at the track in 83 deg outside temp. no pump failure. i made the same times that i was making in 60 deg weather. this is what i was told, " water meth mixtures came about b/c initially there was some evaporation issues w/ the braided line on the grand national setup." if you dont run the meth that often just prime the line to make sure. i believe the grand national had all the line in the engine bay as does the wrx setup. water meth mixtures may assist in slowing the evaporation process or the amount of actual evaporation. the power gains on both are problably negligable, maybe 5 horses or less. i guess, im just worried about my seals on the pump failing. but how long does that take? i do believe smc is coming out w/ a failsafe later this or next month. does anyone know any details about that?
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Old 08-23-2006, 01:09 PM   #72
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I'v been running straight meth for months and months now with the alky control pump not a single problem.
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Old 08-23-2006, 01:59 PM   #73
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Where is your meth resivor? I bet it's in the trunk...
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:12 PM   #74
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Nope it is where my washer fluid was. You guys need to have a chat with Julio at alky control.
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:33 PM   #75
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Is it heat wrapped? I've talked to Julio on the phone he knows his stuff! Too bad he was not interested in doing any sponsorships
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