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Old 08-12-2006, 05:20 PM   #1
aspera
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Default steam turbo spooler idea

As we all know, water can be used in several ways to help our cars make more power. It can be sprayed on intercoolers or injected into the intake.

So, I had this idea that some of the energy that was being wasted out the tailpipe could be used with water to make the engine more efficient. That heat could be used to turn water into steam, and the steam could be used to spool up the turbo. That would allow a larger (more efficient) turbo to be used.

I really haven't figured out the nuts and bolts, but I think the steam would need to be sprayed at the turbine and controlled by a WOT switch like nitrous.

At worst, it should keep the downpipe squeaky clean.
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Old 08-12-2006, 07:01 PM   #2
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For it to work(water to help spool and power), you'd need to be able to inject the right amount of water, timing, and fuel as to not lose power from cooling things down too much. I've never actually heard of someone doing this correctly(and posting the results), and to me it seems like most of the kits available aren't capable of giving the low flow needed to do this while having enough flow uptop to get the kinda results we'd want up there. At least that's the way I see it.

peace
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspera
As we all know, water can be used in several ways to help our cars make more power. It can be sprayed on intercoolers or injected into the intake.

So, I had this idea that some of the energy that was being wasted out the tailpipe could be used with water to make the engine more efficient. That heat could be used to turn water into steam, and the steam could be used to spool up the turbo. That would allow a larger (more efficient) turbo to be used.

I really haven't figured out the nuts and bolts, but I think the steam would need to be sprayed at the turbine and controlled by a WOT switch like nitrous.

At worst, it should keep the downpipe squeaky clean.
I've heard of someone doing this. It got rid of all there "lag". I think it was on the "half baked web site?
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy
For it to work(water to help spool and power), you'd need to be able to inject the right amount of water, timing, and fuel as to not lose power from cooling things down too much. I've never actually heard of someone doing this correctly(and posting the results), and to me it seems like most of the kits available aren't capable of giving the low flow needed to do this while having enough flow uptop to get the kinda results we'd want up there. At least that's the way I see it.

peace
Well, I'm not talking about injecting liquid water into the intake or exhaust. I'm talking about injecting high pressure steam into the exhaust. A jet of steam pointed right at the turbine blade. Basically the difference (as I see it) is energy storage. Injecting water would suck engine heat energy at the same time that it is attempting to add energy. Instead, I'd rather see water turned into steam in the 99% of the time when the car isn't WOT. Then, when the car trips the WOT switch, steam blasts the turbine wheel and spools up the turbo.

What I'd really like to do is figure out how to split up a turbo into its two induvidual parts, so the hot turbine and cold compressor could work at different times and locations. While an engine designed to have a PRT and a centrifugal supercharger would do that using the crank, I think there has got to be another way.
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Old 08-13-2006, 03:38 PM   #5
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I just read a thread on the Halfbakery website. This one caught my eye.

"You cold even take a smidgen of the car's existing pre-warmed pressurised coolant water and use a standard solenoid type injector to squirt it through a few turns of tube and into the manifold."

This abandons the idea of using a boiler, and uses a container that is already on the car...the coolant system. The coolant system is already a source of pre-heated, pressurized water that is already built into the car...and already connected to the turbo. Only a few more degrees sould be needed to flash the hot water into steam.

Ideally that extra heat would come from the downpipe, not the exhaust manifold.

Of course this would not be a closed loop system. You'd have to keep filling up the coolant overflow tank every so often.
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Old 08-13-2006, 04:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspera
Well, I'm not talking about injecting liquid water into the intake or exhaust. I'm talking about injecting high pressure steam into the exhaust. A jet of steam pointed right at the turbine blade. Basically the difference (as I see it) is energy storage. Injecting water would suck engine heat energy at the same time that it is attempting to add energy. Instead, I'd rather see water turned into steam in the 99% of the time when the car isn't WOT. Then, when the car trips the WOT switch, steam blasts the turbine wheel and spools up the turbo.

What I'd really like to do is figure out how to split up a turbo into its two induvidual parts, so the hot turbine and cold compressor could work at different times and locations. While an engine designed to have a PRT and a centrifugal supercharger would do that using the crank, I think there has got to be another way.
I understand what you're saying now, and I have a few questions and concepts..... How do you plan to make steam? Why even use steam? It would still cool the exhaust gasses unless it was as hot as them(which isn't likely). You'd be injecting it as steam, which would make the expansion a lot less significant then if it was injected as water. The two of these things make me wonder if water could be used more effectively then steam. On top of that, if the point is to get more boost then is possible because of the lack of exhaust gas, why not just inject any type of gas(or air) to get the boost where you want it then have the system turn off? Kinda like a throttle trip to turn it on, and a boost signal to turn it off.... An antilag system would also be an option.....

On the note of having the turbo parts in two different places, it could probably be done, but they put the parts in the same place for a reason. Less moving parts means a better performing turbo. Adding parts to a turbo will make it harder for it to do it's job. It would be like adding weight and/or friction to the parts. Superchargers are made the same way too. They use the least amounts of moving parts possible to get the job done. Having extra parts would be like asking for more problems, since adding parts would be adding things which could possibly break. Sometimes less=more, and more often then not when using water injection. Course this is all just my opinion......

peace

Last edited by hippy; 08-13-2006 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:15 PM   #7
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Good points. Compressed air (OBA), CO2, or nitrogen might work better but would still cool the exhaust quite a bit. I'm thinking fire extinguisher plumbed into the uppipe. Maybe not.

Maybe it would be a better idea to pull the air instead of push it. Plumb the fire extinguisher to the downpipe intstead. I'm thinking it would work like a paint gun. If nothing else it should make a nice cloud out the tailpipe.

Turbo: The greatest strength is that it has only one moving part, but that is also the source of its greatest weakness. The compressor adds power while the turbine takes it away. If, on the other hand, the compressor could add power without the turbine taking it away (at that exact same moment) then the peak output of the engine would increase the same amount as the horsepower required to spin the turbine (big hp). The turbine would then slowly siphon a few horsepower when cruising or off throttle.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:27 PM   #8
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You're assuming that it takes a lot of energy to spin the turbine. The whole point behind turbocharging is that using exhaust gasses is an efficient way of making more power(by the power adding being greater then the power robbing). It's energy that's never used in an na car, although used in a way which does technically lowerpower output. Course superchargers are the same, just in a different way. If you're looking for something that doesn't remove power to get power, get an na mustang(or whatever) and pop a huge shot of n2o on it.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 08-13-2006 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:41 PM   #9
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In my opinion steam will work best. I have experience with a different type of steam system to make power. Depending on your exhaust back presser. First injected superheated steam at about 50cc per. min. It will increase mass flow and expand even more. Say from 450F till it hits the 1300F+ in the exhaust. Its not necessarily the temp of the exhaust its the mass flow that will help.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:59 PM   #10
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50cc of steam per minute, or 50cc of water? Either way, it really wouldn't do that much. There could be something like 15 cubic feet(not cubic centimeters) of air going in the engine at 3000rpm and 3psi, which with the fuel makes many moons of cubic feet of exhaust gas per minute. You'd need to inject a good amount of anything(into the exhaust) to get normal results, and that's where the temp of the exhaust gasses are thought about. People seem to think that cooler exhaust gasses mean denser exhaust gasses which have less mass. This might be what would happen if we dumped the required amount of steam(or water) into the exhuast without heating it a good amount since the steam(or water) will cool down the exhaust gasses much quicker then the exhaust gasses will heat the steam up. I mean, if you want an anti-lag system(which is what injecting anything into the exhaust b4 the turbo would be), why not look into anti-lag systems? Ya might find one which uses steam, but I wouldn't bet on it. Course this is just.........

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Old 08-15-2006, 08:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxc
In my opinion steam will work best. I have experience with a different type of steam system to make power. Depending on your exhaust back presser. First injected superheated steam at about 50cc per. min. It will increase mass flow and expand even more. Say from 450F till it hits the 1300F+ in the exhaust. Its not necessarily the temp of the exhaust its the mass flow that will help.

Where are you going to get superheated steam from? Saturated steam (or wet steam) would make short work of your turbine wheel. Steam turbines that are used in saturated steam systems are designed to tolerate the erosive effects of saturated steam. Injecting water into the exhaust would be counter productive. The mass of gas used to spool a turbine (which a turbo is on the hot side) plays a much smaller roll compared to velocity. Using the exhaust to heat the water to steam would be cooling it down, cooler exhaust has less energy and less velocity. A traditional anti-lag system would work much better and be a lot easier to implement imho.

Jacob

Last edited by di2co; 08-15-2006 at 08:17 PM. Reason: I can't spell apparently
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:23 PM   #12
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I don't get how you can say the mass of exhaust gas plays a smaller roll then exhaust gas velocity. Exhaust gas velocity is partly a result of the mass of the exhaust gas. The other part being the size of the exhaust piping. If you increase the mass of gasses in given piping, you're gonna get higher velocity. That's obviously what he's trying to do, and I agree that steam might not be the way to do this, but this is the concept behind antilag systems. ie-more exhaust mass at lower rpms/tps=higher boost.

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Old 08-15-2006, 08:42 PM   #13
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You won't be increasing the total mass/second by injecting water into the exhaust. And I think you have volume and mass confused. Yes if you increase the volume of gas flow through the same size pipe/tube velocity must increase or pressure will increase. Modern anti-lag systems retard timing to the point where the gasses are still expanding as they exit the combustion chamber so instead of using that energy to push the piston down they are spinning a turbine and running much hotter (hotter means more energy) through the turbine. They are not increasing the mass of a given volume of gas at a given pressure at all they are using the high rate of expansion to in increase velocity to keep the turbo spooled when the engine is in a no-load state. Also if you look at energy equations in relation to gas flow or anything moving that has mass you'll see that it's mass x velocity squared. It pretty much comes down to no matter what it's going to take x mass/second flow to spool x turbo to get the compressor to flow x amount of air. You have two choices, either add more energy to the exhaust (anti-lag, n2o, inject fuel into the exhaust to burn which is old school anti-lag, or get a bigger motor), or get a smaller turbo. You could use a small boiler to inject steam but nitrous would work better imho. Using the exhaust gas to heat water or anything else is only going to cool the exhaust and heat whatever you inject (unless it combusts) and you end up with the same energy if not less as you had before you started.

Jacob

Last edited by di2co; 08-15-2006 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 08-15-2006, 09:07 PM   #14
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Yeh, I'm kinda talkin outta my butt about the antilag system, since I really don't know much about them. I just knew that was the effect this guy is trying to achieve. I also thought that antilag systems increased exhaust gas volume in some way to spin the turbine faster, but I guess not? Or maybe they do a combination of things to get the boost up? I mean people can't just retard their timing a ton and say they have an antilag system can they?

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Old 08-15-2006, 09:39 PM   #15
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That is what modern antilag does, it retards timing and in some cases richens the mixture to ensure it will still be combusting as it leaves the cylinder. You could just retard timing like crazy but you need to only retard it when the engine is under no-load, like when engine braking, reving with the clutch pushed in, or shifting. It's really loud and would probably kill most of our available aftermarket turbos quickly. They are not designed to be run like a gas turbine. I believe the utec's launch control retards timing to achieve the desired launch rpm with the throttle fully depressed which would kind of act like anti-lag. Someone with more knowledge about that would have to comment though.

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Old 08-15-2006, 10:49 PM   #16
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The utec does not retard the timing for launch control. It either cuts fuel or ignition, like a rev limiter.

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Old 08-16-2006, 09:20 AM   #17
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since we are on the concept of using exhaust heat for something, here is one to toss around that has rolled around in the head for awhile. thermoelectric junctions (peltier units) get one hot side and one cold side when powered, but they also go in reverse just as well. (intentionally make one side hot, one side cold) I have no idea how much some stuck to the exhaust could generate, i'm sure not enough to completely replace an alternator, but any energy added that doesn't come from the alternator is free HP.
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Old 08-22-2006, 12:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspera
As we all know, water can be used in several ways to help our cars make more power. It can be sprayed on intercoolers or injected into the intake.

So, I had this idea that some of the energy that was being wasted out the tailpipe could be used with water to make the engine more efficient. That heat could be used to turn water into steam, and the steam could be used to spool up the turbo. That would allow a larger (more efficient) turbo to be used.

I really haven't figured out the nuts and bolts, but I think the steam would need to be sprayed at the turbine and controlled by a WOT switch like nitrous.

At worst, it should keep the downpipe squeaky clean.

Simpsons did it. Simpsons did it.

Just kidding, it was BMW.

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/12/09/b...-hot-and-goes/

Well, sort of anyway.
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Old 08-22-2006, 01:23 AM   #19
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Thanks! I never could find any more info on BMW's steam system. I read that they were working on "something" a while back, but there weren't any details.

Now all they need to do is make it smaller, cheaper and lighter. And use a turbo.

Just wait until the ricers get ahold of one of these. Hide the steam whistles! Wooowoooo!!!
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Old 08-22-2006, 06:28 PM   #20
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There's an easy way with steam to get more power. BMW's system is to complicated.
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:20 PM   #21
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Sorry about the short posts i have browser problems. Smokey Yunick. I think he invented the first internal combustion steam engine.
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:24 PM   #22
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http://www.schou.dk/hvce/?mode=2 I wonder how many cc's of water a minute he was flowing in those engines? If the water flow stopped. Those engines would instantly self-destruct.

Last edited by maxc; 08-22-2006 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxc
http://www.schou.dk/hvce/?mode=2 I wonder how many cc's of water a minute he was flowing in those engines? If the water flow stopped. Those engines would instantly self-destruct.

He was using H2O's greater thermal expansion properties to help drive the piston down. When heated water expands at a much greater rate than the hot expanding gases of any hydrocarbon based fuel. This concept is great except for a couple of things: 1. water doesn't "burn" under conditions seen inside a combustion engine using "standard" fuels and thus adds no energy; 2. The system was very complicated and given the current state of technologies (this is more my opinion) it would not be feasible to meter the flow of water in regards to engine speed and/or air flow without considerable cost.

I worked with an experimental steam generation system that used a 3 stage norton-thicol rocket (fueled by ethanol). We injected distilled water (99.9% pure) into the discharge of the motor to generate steam at very high pressure (700psi+). H2O will have attain a higher pressure for a given temperature (given equal mass of course) than would the exhaust gases of the rocket. The point here is that unless you design a motor or system to exploit that you will see no benefit. Also a basic law to remember is that energy can't be created nor destroyed. Fuel when burned/oxidized releases a certain energy (it's different for different fuels ie diesel has more energy than gasoline for the same volume) per mass used. Unless you were to build an engine like the above mentioned did for the direct purpose of exploiting the expansion of water when energy is applied you would end up with (and this is an exaggeration) warm water and cool exhaust. You see injecting water will not give you any more energy it can only increase the amount of that energy that is available (increase efficiency) and only in a process that is designed to exploit it.

Jacob
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Old 08-23-2006, 01:40 AM   #24
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It also sounds like Smokey was trying to compress much of the intake charge OUTSIDE the cylinder instead of INSIDE the cylinder on the compression stroke. That's another trend I've seen in experimental engines.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspera
It also sounds like Smokey was trying to compress much of the intake charge OUTSIDE the cylinder instead of INSIDE the cylinder on the compression stroke. That's another trend I've seen in experimental engines.
I read somewhere that Smokey only used 1/2 to 2 psi of boost.
I've gained 10% horse power with a simple system. No turbo no other changes. But I need a good metering system. I add 1cc at a time. At least I try to.http://better-mileage.com/water4.html

Last edited by maxc; 08-23-2006 at 07:05 AM.
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