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Old 08-21-2006, 06:46 PM   #1
jblaine
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Default Hydra poll: Idle settings

What's everyone using for their ISC settings?

Whats your idle target map set up like?

What kind of anomalies do you experience with your settings, if any?

Mine are:

P: 100
I: 90
D: 45

Anomalies:

Only when the engine is "cold" (aka 75F in Florida), I experience the following:
Cranking car...
Car turns over and idle spikes to 1800...
Idle drops down to 500 or so... then catches...
Spikes back up to around 1500....
Starts settling down
As I drive the car in the next few minutes, decelerating to a stop with the clutch pedal in:
The RPMs drop... drop... down to 400 or so...
then "catch" and flare back up to 1500...
then start settling down
After the engine warms up some, everything is *perfect* at start time and decelerating to a stop.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:58 PM   #2
THE-95-STi
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yeah getting the same kinda of thing, I don't always let the car warm up in the morning and runs really slugish and hesitatvie until it warms up
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:39 PM   #3
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Ok, here are some pointers for tuning cold engine conditions:

Q: What's everyone using for their ISC settings?
A: Keep in mind STI, RS, and WRX are going to be very different so differentiate the 3. None of the same settings work for all three platforms since the STI uses the DBW to control the idle, the WRX uses an idle control solenoid, and the RS uses a stepper ISC valve.

Mine are:

Q: P: 100
A: This controls how much feed back there is regards to close loop idle control. Increasing this will result in more feedback but honestly it’s hard to see significant differences here. Typically I like 125-135 here.

Q: I: 90
A: This is where I see the most significant impact. Typically I adjust this anywhere from 110-180 depending on the application. Increasing this will lower your idle and decreasing this will raise your idle. Typically I use this to allow for higher initial minimum idle settings such as the “Min PWM Duty.”

Q: D: 45
A: This basically is an error allowance and a lower number results in more effort to maintain the idle target.


Q: Car turns over and idle spikes to 1800...
A: This is where the new software is nicer (2.17 or newer) as it allows you to control the maximum idle duty within the “Max ISC Integrator” map based on coolant settings. For the older software try lowering the “Max Duty” in increments of 5 to see if you can reduce this. Also much of your flare up and oscillation can be reduced by increasing the “Post Start Enrichment” map when cold.

Q: Idle drops down to 500 or so... then catches... Spikes back up to around 1500....Starts settling down
A: This is primarily a fueling issue and not and idle setting issue. Increase the “Post Start Enrichment” map when cold. This map only last for the first 60 seconds and is designed for this very condition.

Q: As I drive the car in the next few minutes, decelerating to a stop with the clutch pedal in the RPMs drop... drop... down to 400 or so...
then "catch" and flare back up to 1500...then start settling down
A: Since the “Post Start Enrichment” map only lasts 60 seconds this is where the “Coolant Temp Trim” can be utilized if deemed a fueling issue. Increase or decrease the AFR based on coolant temperature to suits your needs. Also adjusting the “Max ISC Integrator” (2.17 or newer) can help here too as its coolant temperature based. Increasing this will give more authority to the idle circuit to maintain a higher idle. Raising the “Min PWM Duty” will not allow the idle to drop below a certain point ever but adjust this when the car is warm. Increase this until the idle starts to go above target. Bumping up the “Vehicle Moving Steps” can work wonders here by also increasing ignition timing in the lower RPM areas can help in some cars.

”After the engine warms up some, everything is *perfect* at start time and decelerating to a stop.”
A: This means that the main fuel and spark maps are where they need to be. Concentrate on the “Post Start Enrichment” map to control flare and oscillation on the cold start. Concentrate on understanding and tuning one parameter at a time to learn its effect before moving to another adjustment.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:32 AM   #4
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200
170
20

Had to raise those top two with the cams. I agree the integral has the most profound effect.

Added more timing to stabilze idle (22 degrees in the Status box in the Nemesis window). I keep timing low in the "start" areas (17-18 degrees, 85 mm and 1 psi). For me adding timing also lowers the vacuum somewhat. If you add too much timing near "start" cranking will become much slower (push back).

I run AFR = 14.7. Moving steps 30. Idle target set to 864.

Added fuel to the 400 RPM and 0 RPM sites near idle and to the vacuum regions just above idle to "catch" the idle if RPM dips too low. I just follow the trend of those load sites around the idle vacuum. Another area of the fuel map that seems to affect idle is slightly lower vacuum and slightly higher RPM. If you blip the throttle, first it goes into higher vacuum (more load) and then drops to lower vacuum than idle. If those sites are too lean your RPM drops faster and can drop below the idle point and stall.

I have 0 in the coolant trim at 80 and 90C, but then add 2.5 at 100C and this helps to stabilize the idle in traffic, while sitting.

For the STI raised the value at the low end in PWM Map 2 (throttle) to keep the idle from dipping too low. Similar to PWM Min in the ISC settings. Phil recommends care when altering this map as you can trigger the DBW fail safe. I believe my 0 setting is 48.x and then a nearly straight line up to the maximum throttle setting.

Tuning the idle can make you nuts becuase so many of the environmental maps affect it.

PSM your issue sounds like you are very rich while warming up. If you have a wide band you can monitor this. If not, you can try lowering you coolant temp trims in temp sites below "warmed up" (80-90C), try lowering 3-5% at a time, and see if it gets any better.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:39 AM   #5
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Just for grins, here's the way I think about PID. It's the 'boxer' model.

P = how hard you punch
I = how often you punch
D = how often (the increment) you recalibrate the the hardness of your punch (lower numbers recalibrate more often for instance: every 10 ms, 20 ms, 50 ms)

No matter what you get beat up.
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:15 AM   #6
jblaine
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Thanks guys. That gives me a LOT more information to work with.
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Old 08-22-2006, 12:43 PM   #7
Element Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Thanks guys. That gives me a LOT more information to work with.
It's definitely a lot of information so take it one setting at a time until you realize and understand each fully. Once you understand it's much easier to isolate which compensation map (s) or idle settings need adjustment.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 08-22-2006, 01:28 PM   #8
x99percent
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P: 130
I: 100
D: 40
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:29 AM   #9
jblaine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Just for grins, here's the way I think about PID. It's the 'boxer' model.

P = how hard you punch
I = how often you punch
D = how often (the increment) you recalibrate the the hardness of your punch (lower numbers recalibrate more often for instance: every 10 ms, 20 ms, 50 ms)

No matter what you get beat up.
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Old 08-23-2006, 10:18 AM   #10
jblaine
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I'll begin poking at things slowly, but FWIW, here is what it all looks like. This is from this morning, 1Hz sampling rate.

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Old 08-23-2006, 01:25 PM   #11
Element Tuning
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Before you can evaluate your AFR during a cold start you must heat the WB. Turn the key to the on position with your Nemesis software running and wait a few (3-4) minutes until your WB starts to read. You may have done this and if so you should increase the "Post Start Enrichment" as you are still really lean (around 15:1) during the cold start.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 08-23-2006, 01:31 PM   #12
jblaine
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Yeah, that was with the O2 sensor heated enough to read 20.x at start. Not 3-4 minutes though...

I will let it heat longer and log again.
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:18 PM   #13
Element Tuning
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If it helps my car with cams, TGV deletes, 1000cc injectors, needs to hit 12.0 AFR right at start up or it will oscillate. I cannot approach 14s until about 70C coolant temp. My bone stock LGT with TGVs is plenty happy in the high 13s at start up and very rapidly can idle smoothly in the 14s.

Phil
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:30 AM   #14
Element Tuning
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Just something to note, I had my stock 06 STI on the dyno yesterday and right after start up the AFRs dropped all the way into the 10s and then slowly leaned out over about 30 seconds to 14.7 AFR. I don't really recall seeing this much enrichment on the older STI models.
Thanks,
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Old 08-26-2006, 02:53 PM   #15
jblaine
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I bumped my post-start enrichment up a bit from lowest-C to 50C or so and it seems to have improved things. I will continue down this path until I am at 13.5:1 or so.

More to come...
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Old 08-28-2006, 09:30 AM   #16
Element Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine View Post
I bumped my post-start enrichment up a bit from lowest-C to 50C or so and it seems to have improved things. I will continue down this path until I am at 13.5:1 or so.

More to come...
Once you have that aspect dialed in for a steady idle after cold start you can then move on to adjusting the fuel "Coolant Temp Trim" to help during cold coolant temp driving.

Good luck.
Phil
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:09 PM   #17
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I can't tell real easily from your log Jeff, but it looks like maybe you want higher RPM idle as the car warms up. Even starting at 75F, my car idles at 1500 after start and then slowly moves down to 850-900 RPM as you get up to 80-90C.

I have TGV deletes and I "start" right around 12-13:1, but I'm very quickly at 13.5:1 after the post start enrichment wears off. Phil's cams are bigger than mine and he has a higher vacuum at idle.

So just as a time point: 1 minute after start I'm idling at 1300-1400 with an AFR of ~13.5:1. Timing is low twenties and when I had stock cams high teens.
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:16 PM   #18
bboy
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I read your first post again. I was struck this time by your description of "...then catches...". I can't be sure, but now sounds like you need a higher minimum throttle opening. On the WRX I think that means you need to increase the "min PWM" on the ISC. Increase the value in the box until you hear your idle speed rise, then back off my ~5 units. On the STI you need to increase throttle values in PWM Map 2 (carefully).

Also you may or may not benefit from decreasing your "integral" as your idle is oscillating pretty frequently.

Trent
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Old 09-06-2006, 12:55 PM   #19
jblaine
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Everything is good now.

Increased idle target for 30C and 40C.
Increased post-start enrichment for 20C, 30C and 40C.

Flares to 1800
Drops to 1200
Rises to 1300 and sits there until it drops as the car warms up.
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Old 09-11-2006, 08:31 PM   #20
bboy
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Great!! I need to add some fuel to my start pirmer now that it's getting colder here in WA.
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