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Old 09-20-2006, 10:59 AM   #101
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[quote=bboy;15059943]If AVCS is off, the cams are at a normal state of fully retarded. AVCS only advances the intake cam by up to 20 degrees, there is is no retarding of the intake cam from the 0 position.

QUOTE]


Looking at one of my datalogs via delta dash: (AH581 Ver8 JDM ECU on a Ver8 EDM MY05 STi engine.)
VVT Angle R MIN 0 MAX 23
VVT Angle L MIN 0 MAX 24
OVC R % MIN 43.9 MAX 55.7
OVC L % MIN 41.2 MAX 54.1
OCV Current MIN 512 MAX 640
OCV Current MIN 480 MAX 640
MAP 15

Richard Bulmer, MD of Tracktive Solutions & former MD of MOTEC UK says remapping a car to MAP 15 results in faster knock correction or something like that. I dunno he lost me when he started talking ECU gibberish. Anyway he is the one that mapped my WRX.

Any of this help? I can add more info from my datalog if you think it will help.
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:27 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by STI8U View Post
Hydra can only do open loop cam control?? How the how could you even hope to control the cams, given the large variances in oil pressure seen in an engine...
Hydra can do open loop or closed loop. Mine runs in closed loop. As long as RPM and oil pressure are fairly consistant I would not think it would matter a whole lot either way.
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:41 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by TheMadScientist View Post
Sounds like all you did was destroy the VE. Boost is just a restriction.

TMS
Yep, and the fact that WG duty is maxed out proves it's effectively "creep". Boost is not power/torque. It's forced induction, not production.

AFR is a poor predictor of torque if you are changing dynamic compression via camshaft changes, especially if you have boost blowing thru the intake and out the exhaust valve.

No one has "duplicated" Clark's results, that is increased power/torque output at high RPM by advancing the intake cam......but they may in time.
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:03 PM   #104
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I just ran a little test using the DeltaDash dyno. Not a great scientific test (especially since I can't log timing, etc. at the same time), but still a reasonable test as DeltaDash has generally been consistent over runs for me.

In one run I set all AVCS points to zero, and in the next run I set all AVCS points to 30. These are third gear pulls because I don't have a place I can safely do fourth gear pulls from 2000RPM to redline in a timely manor (i.e. without have to circle the area many times to get free of cars, etc., etc.).

The results show that on my car (with an SZ55) and with my current tune (poorly done by me), I generated more power below 4400RPM with AVCS set at 30 and more power above 4400RPM with the AVCS set at zero. It is very clear and the difference in power is wider at the RPM extremes and narrows the closer to 4400RPM I get. The difference (according to DeltaDash) is about 20ft-lbs on the low and and 40hp at the top. Again your car and tune may be different. But for me, running AVCS after 4400 seems to be a bad idea. I suppose I should also make a pull with AVCS at 15 across the board to see if that power line goes right through the middle of the ones I just did.

Last edited by root; 09-20-2006 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Fixed cross over RPM
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:13 PM   #105
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Be carful guys. Blindly advancing the cams like that can be dangerous. Remember that the Dynamic compression is changing. You can put yourself right into Knock city in no time just doing that. Baby steps!

The Hydra for the WRX is open loop. It is pulsing the Solenoids but has no idea the actual cam advance. The Stock ECU runs an alignment to zero the cams. It is closed loop and constantly adjusts to keep the cams with in a degree or two from bank to bank.

Clark
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:50 PM   #106
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Aye Clark. I did this on an already conservative map (and my eye on my knock light).
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:54 PM   #107
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Clark, in previous posts you seem to imply that what I found here isn't really correct with regards to the AVCS values that make the most power. Yet most others think it is (it seems). Is there something wrong with my test? I'm not sure how I can see you getting those huge power gains by just changing AVCS since the stock already has zero in the top end. Unless it has more to do with the VF39 running out of breath. Do you use the same AVCS for larger turbos?
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:25 PM   #108
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Just ran the same test using 15 degrees across the board. Interesting. It wasn't sandwiched between the 0 and 30 tests. In fact, it made more power than either the 0 or 30 from about 3800RPM to 5000RPM (give or take a 100 or so). We aren't talking about huge differences in power (until the upper RPMs), but they appear to be there.

FWIW, the IATs for the three tests (as reported by DeltaDash) were within a few degrees of each other (100F for zero, 99F for 15, and 102 for 30). I guess the 15 degree test had the coolest air, which is worth a little power, possibly. I think they are close enough though not to have really altered the result. I am running a FMIC for the record.
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:36 PM   #109
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With larger turbos I run a different map to aid in spool up. A larger turbo provides more air at a later rpm... So you need different values.

I believe your test is flawed because you are only changing one variable.. The AVCS timing.. You are not changing Ignition timing or fuel. You must change all three to get the gains I see.

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Old 09-20-2006, 02:42 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by AZScoobie View Post
I believe your test is flawed because you are only changing one variable.. The AVCS timing.. You are not changing Ignition timing or fuel. You must change all three to get the gains I see.
OK. Thanks Clark. I had thought you were saying you could get dramatic gains by just dropping a new AVCS map over the stock map and doing nothing else. And also that you could make more power by increasing AVCS in the upper RPM ranges (as opposed to running the stock setting of zero up top).

Are you suggesting that you can get more power up top by advaning AVCS, which in turn lets you pull fuel or add advance, then you can by tuning fuel and ignition using zero values for AVCS up top? (How's that for a long sentence?)
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Old 09-20-2006, 03:13 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
I generated more power below 4400RPM with AVCS set at 30 and more power above 4400RPM with the AVCS set at zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
Just ran the same test using 15 degrees across the board. In fact, it made more power than either the 0 or 30 from about 3800RPM to 5000RPM (give or take a 100 or so).
Makes sense to me... Run move AVCS at lower RPMs and taper it down to 0 once past 5k rpm or so. Like this: 0-3800 = 30 deg, 3800-5000 = 15 deg, 5000+ = 0 deg.

Of course, this starts looking similar to the stock AVCS maps...
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Old 09-20-2006, 03:34 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by AZScoobie View Post
The Hydra for the WRX is open loop. It is pulsing the Solenoids but has no idea the actual cam advance. The Stock ECU runs an alignment to zero the cams. It is closed loop and constantly adjusts to keep the cams with in a degree or two from bank to bank.
Clark
I wonder why the wrx is open loop if they have the sti hydra doing closed loop maybee needs an update??
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Old 09-20-2006, 04:04 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist View Post
Sounds like all you did was destroy the VE. Boost is just a restriction.

TMS

TMS,

You lost me. Please explain (if you have the time). To me, if I am using the same WGDC and the boost is more, then VE is better. VE is basically how efficient the air pump is. More VE means more air.

... wait ...

UNLESS you are referring to the possible idea that boost is going straight through the motor (raw boost, not utilized in the ignition event). This could theoretically spin the turbine faster and create more boost. But, then again, you could also say that more air was trapped during the combustion even that that TOO would end up yielding more boost. The MAF voltage did go up.

t
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:28 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by bboy View Post
Has anyone noticed a sound associated with over advancing AVCS, kind of a flutter. Anyone speculate on what that sound is? I'm thinking the cam is slipping backwards after the solenoid advances completely.

Clark-so advancing the intake cam and increasing VE is to to an increase in dynamic compression ratio?
By process of elimination, the sound is turbo surge at part throttle, medium load, and medium RPM. It can be eliminated by reducing the AVCS advance, which is interesting in itself. AVCS is spinning the exhaust turbine too quickly at that load causing the compressor to surge. Good call to STI8U and Clark!! It also indicates that AVCS can help to spool the turbo more quickly, it's just this load/RPM site(s) it was too quick.

I'd never heard compressor surge at this low of a load/RPM, but now I know.
Edit:
I take it all back. Engine is now dead. I'll post back if I find that the pistons were hitting the valves.

Last edited by bboy; 09-26-2006 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:33 PM   #115
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TMS,

You lost me. Please explain (if you have the time). To me, if I am using the same WGDC and the boost is more, then VE is better. VE is basically how efficient the air pump is. More VE means more air.

... wait ...

UNLESS you are referring to the possible idea that boost is going straight through the motor (raw boost, not utilized in the ignition event). This could theoretically spin the turbine faster and create more boost. But, then again, you could also say that more air was trapped during the combustion even that that TOO would end up yielding more boost. The MAF voltage did go up.

t
The turbo is blowing the same amount of air, the engine is not consuming as much air (lower VE) so the boost (pressure) goes up. You lowered VE and thus power, but you see an increase in boost. If your WG could get rid of the boost, you would not see this, hence I called it "creep".
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:35 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfPlayer View Post
TMS,

You lost me. Please explain (if you have the time). To me, if I am using the same WGDC and the boost is more, then VE is better. VE is basically how efficient the air pump is. More VE means more air.

... wait ...

UNLESS you are referring to the possible idea that boost is going straight through the motor (raw boost, not utilized in the ignition event). This could theoretically spin the turbine faster and create more boost. But, then again, you could also say that more air was trapped during the combustion even that that TOO would end up yielding more boost. The MAF voltage did go up.

t
So if the boost goes up at the same WGDC then the motor is not flowing air as efficiently. If the VE on the motor went up "I" would expect to see the boost drop at the same WGDC. All boost is, is the air that the engine is NOT ingesting.

TMS
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:50 PM   #117
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Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

It's clarified my thinking a lot. I'm back at the air pump model of an engine and AVCS ends up being an extremely sophisticated valve that lets air into the engine. Boost and exhaust back pressure play a critical role. If the exhaust pressure exceeds the manifold pressure, AVCS hurts power. If the manifold pressure exceeds exhaust pressure, AVCS can help power, but more advance is not always better, at some point you are throwing away your induction charge. Off boost AVCS follows some similar rules, but there AVCS can help more with induction gas velocity as bigger cams do in general on NA cars.

In general AVCS is permiting an induction charge with more oxygen and less exhaust dilution by either blow thru or scavenging. Either way, with more pure air the dynamic compression ratio is improved. Higher dCR means more efficient burning of the existing fuel, higher peak cylinder pressure (power), and larger exhaust gas volume (possibly velocity as well).

The OEM AVCS map may be used to some degree as an exhaust gas recirculation system. This has nothing to do with power, but does improve economy and NOx emissions.

Other than that summary, get to a dyno cause your never be able to guess how to tune more power.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:40 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by bboy View Post
Either way, with more pure air the dynamic compression ratio is improved.
It is my understanding (which could easily be wrong), that increasing the intake advance (e.g. more overlap) increases dynamic compression because the intake valve closes earlier in the compression stroke. Thus, more volume is trapped in the cylinder. But I guess this all depends on the cam and whether any intake valve/compression stroke overlap can exist/occur.

If the above is true in our cars, then more AVCS advance means higher compression and less AVCS advance means lower compression. Which almost doesn't sound right given my earlier tests (assuming increasing compression would yeild a bit more power, but I made more up top with less advance (everything else being equal in the tune)), but this is all just hurting my brain... so someone please set me straight.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:41 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Sparcomx View Post
I wonder why the wrx is open loop if they have the sti hydra doing closed loop maybee needs an update??
Sorry but it's built into the STI DBW daughter board on the new Hydras. You could purchase this daughter board and have it installed by Hydra EMS for about $250. This also only works with the newer STI heads running the new AVCS/Cam sensor.

It was offered to me for my personal WRX but never felt the need as I was able to get maxium peformance out of the system. It's like a manual boost controller vs. a complex electronic. They both have their respective advantages but sometimes simple is better. I perfected my open loop AVCS map gettinga 75 lbs compressor to hit 20 psi by 4100 rpm. I always warm my car up as should most before jumping on it so the cold oil issue wasn't a factor.

My STI runs the closed loop AVCS Hydra and that's great also

Thanks,
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:47 PM   #120
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Sorry but it's built into the STI DBW daughter board on the new Hydras. You could purchase this daughter board and have it installed by Hydra EMS for about $250. This also only works with the newer STI heads running the new AVCS/Cam sensor.

It was offered to me for my personal WRX but never felt the need as I was able to get maxium peformance out of the system. It's like a manual boost controller vs. a complex electronic. They both have their respective advantages but sometimes simple is better. I perfected my open loop AVCS map gettinga 75 lbs compressor to hit 20 psi by 4100 rpm. I always warm my car up as should most before jumping on it so the cold oil issue wasn't a factor.

My STI runs the closed loop AVCS Hydra and that's great also

Thanks,
Phil
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That sucks.. what about unlocking the avcs for us in the wrx hydra??
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:37 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by root View Post
It is my understanding (which could easily be wrong), that increasing the intake advance (e.g. more overlap) increases dynamic compression because the intake valve closes earlier in the compression stroke. Thus, more volume is trapped in the cylinder. But I guess this all depends on the cam and whether any intake valve/compression stroke overlap can exist/occur.

If the above is true in our cars, then more AVCS advance means higher compression and less AVCS advance means lower compression. Which almost doesn't sound right given my earlier tests (assuming increasing compression would yeild a bit more power, but I made more up top with less advance (everything else being equal in the tune)), but this is all just hurting my brain... so someone please set me straight.
From my readings, there are power gains at higher RPMS to be made by retarding the timing (i.e. moving the intake valve closing point further into the compression stroke). Doing this allows more air to be pushed into the cylinder - of course there is a point in the compression stroke where you will start pushing charge back out the intake valves (probably once piston acceleration starts ramping up), so you don't want to exceed this point. On the flipside, retard reduces overlap, and overlap at high RPMs can create exhaust scavenging, so these two methods of gaining power work against each other.

If you have bigger cams with more overlap, I'd say retarding them fully is likely the way to go at high RPMs - smaller factory cams might like a small amount of advance to achieve both exhaust scavenging and allowing more charge into the cylinder...
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:10 PM   #122
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If you have bigger cams with more overlap, I'd say retarding them fully is likely the way to go at high RPMs - smaller factory cams might like a small amount of advance to achieve both exhaust scavenging and allowing more charge into the cylinder...
That's where I am. The aftermarket cams already have about as much overlap as the owner wants -- if I wanted more, I would have bought bigger cams. The whole cam design is geared toward high end power. With the stock cams you are looking a virtually no overlap, so introduction of some, I could see as beneficial.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:17 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by root View Post
It is my understanding (which could easily be wrong), that increasing the intake advance (e.g. more overlap) increases dynamic compression because the intake valve closes earlier in the compression stroke. Thus, more volume is trapped in the cylinder. But I guess this all depends on the cam and whether any intake valve/compression stroke overlap can exist/occur.

If the above is true in our cars, then more AVCS advance means higher compression and less AVCS advance means lower compression. Which almost doesn't sound right given my earlier tests (assuming increasing compression would yeild a bit more power, but I made more up top with less advance (everything else being equal in the tune)), but this is all just hurting my brain... so someone please set me straight.
The intake cam is open the same amount of time whether it's advanced or not, but more air can be trapped with an advanced position if 1) momental inertia is lowered (gotta get the air moving after it's stopped by a closed valve), or 2) the cylinder is more effectively cleared of residual exhaust gases (combo of less inertia and blowing the exhaust out with boosted air).
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:11 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by TheMadScientist View Post
So if the boost goes up at the same WGDC then the motor is not flowing air as efficiently. If the VE on the motor went up "I" would expect to see the boost drop at the same WGDC. All boost is, is the air that the engine is NOT ingesting.

TMS
Ok. I'll admit to thinking that this is a little more complicated than that.

Boost is not the air that the ingine is not ingesting. Boost is fresh air. Period. Boost is created via a spinning turbine. The faster you spin the turbine, the more boost you create. Simple as that (yes, I know that you are aware of all of this ). So, we need to answer the question as to why advancing the intake cam allows for the turbine to be spun faster and how THAT relates to the VE of the motor.

More airflow in the preturbo exhaust means a faster spinning turbine (assuming static WGDC). More exhaust airflow CAN be due to consuming more air/fuel during combustion do to trapping more of the intake charge (and the exhaust helping to pull in the new charge a tad bit). That would mean a higher VE since we are trapping more air/fuel during the combustion stroke.

So, in relation to a faster spinning turbine, how are you determining that you have LESS VE?.

t
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:24 PM   #125
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Ok. I'll admit to thinking that this is a little more complicated than that.

Boost is not the air that the ingine is not ingesting. Boost is fresh air. Period. Boost is created via a spinning turbine. The faster you spin the turbine, the more boost you create. Simple as that (yes, I know that you are aware of all of this ). So, we need to answer the question as to why advancing the intake cam allows for the turbine to be spun faster and how THAT relates to the VE of the motor.

More airflow in the preturbo exhaust means a faster spinning turbine (assuming static WGDC). More exhaust airflow CAN be due to consuming more air/fuel during combustion do to trapping more of the intake charge (and the exhaust helping to pull in the new charge a tad bit). That would mean a higher VE since we are trapping more air/fuel during the combustion stroke.

So, in relation to a faster spinning turbine, how are you determining that you have LESS VE?.

t
if the boost goes up, your wgdc hasn't changed, and the turbo isn't creeping, then your VE has dropped.

there isn't a doubt in my mind that this is true.
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