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Old 03-04-2012, 10:27 PM   #2776
kozak
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Question for you guys... may be picking up v7 heads missing cam gears. What gears do you guys use/recommend?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:02 PM   #2777
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You need to use the JDM Cam wheels for the intake side. The exhaust you can use WRX sprockets. The US STI intake cam gears will not work.

Dont use hose barbs and worm clamps for oil cooler lines, thats 100 psi + of hot oil. You need proper oil rated hose with AN fittings and then you should then be covered with protective sheath and tied up away from possible road debris. Any failure here and you need the trifecta. short block, heads and turbo.

C
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:17 AM   #2778
Vlad
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I agree with what you say on a general level, but I've taken the research further, before I decided to go with what Subaru went with.

The actual number that a single worm clamp can hold is around 125 PSI.
The problem lays with the clamp expanding under the tremenduous heat generated around the headers, in that confined area.

Going to 105 PSI cold or going to 90 hot can be quite getting close, you're right about that.

Let me speak first about clamps and then about AN and protected hoses.

To increase the safety of the clamps you could go in two directions.
-Get temperature stabilized clamps (the problem with the clamps is most likely to occur when everything is at it's hotterst I think, with the hose very flexible and the clamp expanded). These sell on the net for around $7-10 each, I think.

-Get double clamping, like Subaru did. The spring clamp is not affected by expansion like the worm clamp and together, they increase the clamping force past 125 PSI. Clamping is "additive". Meaning, while I have not found the textbook with the formula on how to calculate the sum of clamping PSI for two, I know it increases.

- The final safety factor is to torque the worm clamp that is located just past the barb on the hose, to where it cannot go past it, due to it's diameter. The only way the hose comes out is without the clamp, sliding past both barb and clamp.

Now about AN hoses:

-On the face value, it seems that these are so much better. A lot of excellent statements on the manufacturer's page, etc, etc. rated for everything you can immagine, etc..

But then you start looking into the details:

Nobody, except for one company that recently came up, gives you pre-made hoses. Let me give you more details:

-There are all of these high quality hoses, those you can't get premade
-There are the ebay style, chinese made hoses that you can get pre-made.

So either no-name brand, don't know what's under the braid, hose

Or a bag of supplies, guaranteed all, but put it together yourself....

And when you put it together yourself, by the way, if anything happens, it's you that caused it, and the warranty is out the window....

Then let's look at the AN;
-It's not a hose, it's a system.... has soo many components. You know what they say about the weakest link... And some of those links are hidden by the braid, you cannot even visually inspect them..

Then let's look at what it takes to convert a Spec C to an AN system:

You need a solution to go from hose barb to AN. You have the two bayonet-stile barbs coming out of the oil filter manifold..

Jegs has a kit in their catalog. I have looked at the kit, it involves a ferrule. I don't like the ferrule, to me that's just junk/unsafe. SO I went to look at what is the pressure rating of the ferrule system. Nobody will take the responsibillity to state that...

Now let's look at what the experience with AN hoses is here on Nasioc:

- With the small diameter hoses that take oil to turbos (pre-made), things are not too bad (those are not really AN, but braided covered tube, with threaded fittings)
- With hoses that go to oil radiators and coolers, things are not quite so.
You read mostly about these in build projects. I reccomend you read some of those in the built sections.

The pattern is: the guy buys the kit. The guy buys the special tools for the kit, to attach the components. The guy makes errors and then goes on the forum that deals with this and then basically takes a course on how to make a braided hose. The guy concludes that he was better off doing something else and does not sound confident at all in the final product....

Here are some other potential problems: The OEM routes everything to where noting rubs anywhere. With the braided hoses you have to do that yourself and you can't be careless about that.

Cliff Notes:

AN braided hoses are better with the following qualifications:
-You don't put them together yourself, but they are put together by somebody that does this for a living, AND out of premium components
-You go through a process of mocking them up, to where they don't touch anything
-You replace them because they have a number of hundreds of hours of operation (even if the braid is shiny), because you can never see what's unde the braid.

Subaru's choice:
- Like Clark says, not a sizeable margin of comfort in pressure holding
- Lets you visually inspect and tighten everything, does not rub anywhere, has the proper ammount of slack in the hoses.

There is (as always) the THIRD choice as well... To do what Subaru did with the S202-S204 cars. But I won't bore you with that.

This is way tooo long already and I'm sure Clark is going to shoot all of it down.

Clark, by the way, as you shoot all of this down, can you also answer my question about the intake manifold temperature sensor? thanks..
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:31 AM   #2779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik View Post
I switched the IAT wires from the maf to the intake manifold sensor for running the Carberry rom, used the same IAT scaling and it seems to work perfect.
Thanks Erik, I've looked at the Carberry, it's much better devellopped than I thought. This should be the solution for people that go rallying as well, I think.
I will try to ask my question to carribles, maybe he'll have an answer, or be willing to look at these things.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:03 AM   #2780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
Thanks Erik, I've looked at the Carberry, it's much better devellopped than I thought. This should be the solution for people that go rallying as well, I think.
I will try to ask my question to carribles, maybe he'll have an answer, or be willing to look at these things.
I would not recommend using the IAT in the manifold. It is not well isolated and heatsoaks from the aluminum of the manifold easily.

I logged temps from this sensor and they would climb to 100F when ambient was 50F. Cruising down the road would take 5 minutes to get things to settle.

Also, to add to the information base, an additional clue you have a V9 Spec C Type RA drivetrain would be everything already mentioned and that the transmission has the built in pump and output for the cooler.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:03 AM   #2781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post


There's a CXracing equivalent that you could run.
kayen, I have one of these sitting on a shelf at my shop if you want it. I went with something larger.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:17 AM   #2782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eqlized_aero View Post
I would not recommend using the IAT in the manifold. It is not well isolated and heatsoaks from the aluminum of the manifold easily.

I logged temps from this sensor and they would climb to 100F when ambient was 50F. Cruising down the road would take 5 minutes to get things to settle.

Also, to add to the information base, an additional clue you have a V9 Spec C Type RA drivetrain would be everything already mentioned and that the transmission has the built in pump and output for the cooler.
Thanks, this is good info.
As far as the transmission, you're right about the oil cooler for the Spec C. There is also a way to cross check a sticker on the transmission to the one on the engine. Of course both could be faked.
As far as the transmission oil pump, all USDm Sti had it, upto GRB ('08+)

As far as the sensor, I kind of expected the heatsoak and I am thinking the different calibration may address that (the SD calibration).
However, if the heatsoak is somehow addressed, then you would be left with what exactly your intercooler does and would take into account the efficiency of whatever setup you're running.
It is even possible that the heatsoak of the manifold DOES influence the temperature of the intake air as well, I would think.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:28 AM   #2783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
Thanks, this is good info.
As far as the transmission, you're right about the oil cooler for the Spec C. There is also a way to cross check a sticker on the transmission to the one on the engine. Of course both could be faked.
As far as the transmission oil pump, all USDm Sti had it, upto GRB ('08+)

As far as the sensor, I kind of expected the heatsoak and I am thinking the different calibration may address that (the SD calibration).
However, if the heatsoak is somehow addressed, then you would be left with what exactly your intercooler does and would take into account the efficiency of whatever setup you're running.
It is even possible that the heatsoak of the manifold DOES influence the temperature of the intake air as well, I would think.
I thought the USDM 6 speeds with the pump just circulated the oil internally and didn't have the ports to come out to a cooler. Is this wrong?

I do believe the manifold temperature is influencing IAT, but not to the extent the sensor reports. I believe the GM IAT sensor has a better method of thermistor isolation. There was a lot of work done by someone trying to utilize the factory intake IAT sensor, maybe Clark? The results were never good.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:09 AM   #2784
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You're right, the USDM had pump but no external connections/cooler.

Aa a note, 2004 dealer brochures for USDM Sti do talk about the Sti having a cooler for the transmission, but nobody posted (that I know of) saying they had one from the factory in US.

Thanks for the info about that research. If you happen to find the link to it, please post it, that's what I was looking for.
Also, sometimes work done back in 2004-2007 can be improved upon, with knowledge acquired in all these years.
So whoever did the research may decide to actually share this with us, so we can learn and maybe improve.

For instance, the work with the Group N ECU, where the SD rom was pulled and defined dates from 2009-2010.
So maybe this can improve on the research you mention which ....may be older?

Last edited by Vlad; 03-05-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #2785
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While we are in the oil coolers discussion...

I have the oem Sti oil cooler.

It's installed like vlad's, only, it isnt hooked up.

Do I need to take out the factory heat exchanger ( where the oil filter sits ) and install a thermo sandwich plate ? Or , I keep also the factory sandwich plate ?
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:33 AM   #2786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
Thanks, this is good info.
As far as the transmission, you're right about the oil cooler for the Spec C. There is also a way to cross check a sticker on the transmission to the one on the engine. Of course both could be faked.
As far as the transmission oil pump, all USDm Sti had it, upto GRB ('08+)

As far as the sensor, I kind of expected the heatsoak and I am thinking the different calibration may address that (the SD calibration).
However, if the heatsoak is somehow addressed, then you would be left with what exactly your intercooler does and would take into account the efficiency of whatever setup you're running.
It is even possible that the heatsoak of the manifold DOES influence the temperature of the intake air as well, I would think.
Well you can prove that that tag on the timing belt cover is not fake by actually looking on the back of your Short Block, underneath the Intercooler. You can actually see the Block's Engraved serializing and should match the timing belt covers numbers.

As for the Transmission I have no idea, if there is a way to prove what you have besides trusting the Transmission Tag.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:56 AM   #2787
K1WRC
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I finally got my swap up and running, I just changed the Oil cooler setup to the US style one. It sucked, as the coolant fitting that screws into the block, was a special order. I kept all the external oil cooler setup hardware, one day I'll run the external oil cooler, just need the little radiator and hoses...

Man, the sound is so different with the twinscroll headers. It started right up, they are definitely smooth motors. I'm only putting around right now, can't wait for the catless downpipe I have on order, and a tune so I can open this thing up.

As a side note for people doing the IA wiring harness. It is really pretty simple, if you think it may be daunting. I unplugged the IAT sensor on the back of the intake manifold and I took the resister I had in the EGT plug out (stupid pre-turbo cat). No CELs!
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:58 AM   #2788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRick View Post
While we are in the oil coolers discussion...

I have the oem Sti oil cooler.

It's installed like vlad's, only, it isnt hooked up.

Do I need to take out the factory heat exchanger ( where the oil filter sits ) and install a thermo sandwich plate ? Or , I keep also the factory sandwich plate ?
You either hook up the radiator, one way or another.

Or you replace the oil radiator pick-up (I call that an oil manifold, to differentiate it from the OEM oil cooler), with an oil cooler.
The oil coolers can be different from a WRX to an Sti.
Then, the oil cooler has to be hooked up to the water pump (for the cooling connection).
To do that 100%, you would need to replace the water pump with a "regular" sti water pump, that has an outlet for the cooler.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #2789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
You're right, the USDM had pump but no external connections/cooler.

Aa a note, 2004 dealer brochures for USDM Sti do talk about the Sti having a cooler for the transmission, but nobody posted (that I know of) saying they had one from the factory in US.
Techincally USDM 6sp has a means of external connections, but they dont provide the barbs for the US market. Intstead of the hose barbs found on the spec c trans, usdm is supplied with the dogbone connector pipe.
Anyone with a 6sp can cut this pipe, flare the ends and connect it to a trans cooler.
IIRC, the factory cooler for the JDM trans was integrated on the radiator when i last saw a crushed spec c front clip. The JDM part might be the same as the WRX auto radiator.

IMO, its waste on public roads, a typical driver wont be rally shifting like crazy to get the trans fluid past optimal operating temperature, even with JDM gearing. My contact at SOA told me "US market will never offer the transcooler off the showroom floor as an option, the US gearing is simply too long to make excess heat.." to warrant a cooler.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:36 PM   #2790
Clark Turner
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Lots of traffic here today.

I would use only AN fittings with a heat sheath as mentioned before. Thats the only right way to run oil cooler lines in my opinon. I ran some without the sheath and my zip ties failed from the heat. The line layed down on top of the aluminum A arm to to my total suprise, the braided line had cut HALF way through the arm!

What you can use is the Blue hose with the Lock push on fittings. These are like barbs but have many circles and a sharp edge. They cannot ever come off once installed. You then cover those lines in Thermotec heat, hose cover and then tie up the lines with Wire or brackets.

Any major city will have a hose shop. There are over a dozen in phx and they can make true machine crimp AN lines. But the push lock is fine. Just dont use black rubber hose with single barb fittings like that Oil cooler picture.

Also. Another option is to remove the Oil/water heat exchanger once you isntall the oil cooler. This device balances temp between water and oil and is not needed/ desired once you have a good oil cooler. If you do keep the exchanger, Then always use a new one anytime you have a motor replacement. Inside it has very fine material that catches metal like a filter. If you reuse it, You will just put that junk back into the new motor. Cut one open after a motor or turbo failure to find out for yourself.

Lastly. Make provisions to bypass the oil cooler (small loop out hose) or run a Sandwitch adapter with a bypass flow Tstat. These push about half the oil through the cooler and half gets bypassed. In the winter, It wont open and all is bypassed. If you dont, your oil temps will be way to cold in normal driving and this is very very hard on the engine. Many times on trips, I see oil temps of only 120 to 140 going down the highway on cars with oil coolers. WAY to cold. The optimim temp is 200 in most cases.

I am not sure what the question was about the intake temp sensor. There are various types I have not had issue using the stock sensor that was used for IC autowash. Sitting in traffic with heat soak the temps on the intake side will rise very high even with an isolated Sensor. This is normal and ok. There is an intake temp offset table that is required for SD. Let the sensor do its job. Trying to make the sensor read fresh air is a mistake and the car wont run 100% all the time. Even with a full isolated type sensor in the manifold, temps will shoot up to 140F at idle and in traffic.

C
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:05 PM   #2791
Vlad
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Just couple things, to make sure everybody is on the same page:

-The OEM Subaru unit for the Spec C deletes the oil/water heat exhanger AKA oil cooler.
-This OEM unit is thermostatic, the thermo is built into it.

Clark, the temperature in the autowash activation threshold is taken from this sensor, at the same time at which the IAT is taken from the MAF one?
I think I wired my autowash at the same time with this sensor, so I would not have known that the autowash threshold temp. does not work without it.

So this sensor puts out the info for the Autowash threshold?

BTW, this is not what the people in Romraider think.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:12 PM   #2792
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Thanks guys.

My plan was to remove the factory heat exchanger, I was assuming also for clearance issues.

Winter is severe here and cold oil was also my concern. Snow and ice is piled up so high, I don't think I'd last a month with the oil cooler down low. Failure would be inevitable. I would simply bypass the cooler in winter, and mount the hoses near the upper rad support, or, simply unplug it and reinstall a new heat exchanger.

Vlad, where can I purchase such a unit ? With thermo control built in ?

edit : this morning was -20 C

( - 4 F )
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:26 PM   #2793
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I think i misread. I thought you have spec c unit and want to go to an oil cooler that all other Sti have.
You have the opposite, Sti and want to go to spec c? Then the cooler under the filter comes out and the spec c unit replaces it. You have to delete the water outlet at the pump.
If you have the spec c unit and it's ready to install, look at the side, you can see the thermostat, looks like the one in Mocal oil sandwhich adapters. The spec c engine has no oil cooler, they do not go stacked. The cooler goes away and only the spec c unit stays.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:28 PM   #2794
Clark Turner
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Mocal makes the thermostatic sandwich adapter. Search and you will find it all over the web for about $100. Dont use a china ebay part here. The mocal only bypass and never runs full switch. This way, even if it fails, The cooler will simply not get as much oil.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:33 PM   #2795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Turner View Post
Mocal makes the thermostatic sandwich adapter. Search and you will find it all over the web for about $100. Dont use a china ebay part here. The mocal only bypass and never runs full switch. This way, even if it fails, The cooler will simply not get as much oil.
Don't worry, I aint cheaping there.

I just checked on a 2010 sti on the lift, factory exchanger can easily be bypassed. I guess I need to plug the loop.

Thx for the tip.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:50 PM   #2796
WRick
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Clark,

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...ocketless_Hose

Will this withstand the heat near the exhaust manifolds ??
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:37 PM   #2797
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thats only rated at 300F, which is less than cooking a frozen pizza. The hose might be fine but need some fire sleeve to protect it.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:04 PM   #2798
WRick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastnoypi View Post
thats only rated at 300F, which is less than cooking a frozen pizza. The hose might be fine but need some fire sleeve to protect it.
Yeah I figured that.

Any suggestions ?

edit nevermind : http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/c...uip_Firesleeve
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:01 PM   #2799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Turner View Post
Yes. The best would be ID725's with a walbro for that power. They would be scaled just about right for an 18G. Other choices would be DW750 or DW850s. If you have a choice, Get the Light blue DWs and not the dark blue/purple DW's for your application.

C
Just ordered 725's.

Thanks for your imput.

Ran out of fuel on the stock pinks. Is it me or 1000's are the same price ? not that I need them I guess.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:05 PM   #2800
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I had no idea the 725s where the same price as the 1000s. I think you made the right choice though. It is very important to have the right size injector. The current trend today is to buy oversize injectors because they are available. However, the car will run much much better with correctly sized injectors. With 1000s. you would never get much past 50% duty. Now you have to make the car idle, cruise, return good mileage and make power with HALF the injector MS timings. Not a good thing.

C
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