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Old 07-16-2012, 01:51 PM   #3676
Nuke209
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Originally Posted by Clark Turner View Post
I never said it wont work. You can hack anything up. I just wonder why anyone would try to use an old V5 or V6 engine in a later model car. I would rather have the EJ205 his car came with.

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Cuz it's JDM & still labeled an EJ207
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:04 PM   #3677
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^^ what he said, especially in Ontario where you dont have that many days where you'll have crazy heat soak (like in the southern US).

I'd go back to the TMIC, but I was hitting peak boost around 3800rpm at 3500' altitude with a TBE and EBCS.

Now I've got the Dom 1.5 and it is noticeably laggier. Still alright cause the power band is different. I dont have it drop off after 6500rpm. It builds until redline and Im only partially tuned (limited to 18psi).

Maybe try a nice 18g with water/meth?
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:04 PM   #3678
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Originally Posted by maximus88

I have exact same up as you but I have stock jdm. Intercooler. I hit full boost around 3800 rpm and that's with my car not being fully tuned. IMO the fmic is what's causing you lag. From what I understand the vf series are small turbos and don't really need fmic.
I still believe this is to be lies! A FMIC will cause no noitcable lag with a proper tune... I don't have TS or a ej207 but I do have a 205, VF43, and the huge Perrin FMIC. I replaced my WRX TMIC with the Perrin unit and got retuned and have no additional lag time at which both reached 20psi @ 3600-3700. And when you do the math it is accually a lot quick to reach full boost by time. So you've gotta take that into account also when figuring up spool

Plus I gained about 20ft-lbs in midrange power. Didn't adjust much up top to notice any gains...

Most 207's with VF37 that I've seen are around 3700-3800 for full boost(18-20psi) and that's tuned

Last edited by ppayer38; 07-16-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:16 PM   #3679
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it is true you can tune them to spool just almost as fast as a tmic but there is still 10' of pipe you need to fill up which the maf will see but the engine wont for a given small time period. so it will dip rich like all draw thru maf setups do to some extent. then boost like normal w/ target'd afr's.

for this reason i am going speed density not only for the nice features but it relies on manifold pressure not a maf reading so many feet before the turbo. from what i have worked on any maf tuned car with a fmic should be blow through so its actual reading is as close to the engine as possible for spool up reasons and such.

as my car sits now i am hitting 20psi at 3350 rpms. elevation is 1000'. its a v8 TS vf37 setup.running a 3" DP with 2.35" cat back exhaust. this is killing spool up i know which is why i put a 3" cutout in the bottom of the DP. after this i will let you guys know how spool improves. same road, a few runs each back to back from the same rpm. I honestly believe spool up has alot to do with exh size as well which is why i am doing this test.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:44 PM   #3680
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i ran the same fmic on a td04 on my wrx and made great power with low lag, then put a vf39 on my stock wrx motor and didnt see this lag issue either. i dont think the fmic is causing lag.
this hasnt been a "problem" till running the vf30 on the ej207.
its also been tuned, but only to 306 whp
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:10 PM   #3681
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I feel the same way about my vf30. I have a tmic too. I'm putting down 310whp on a low reading mustang dyno and maxxing the sti pinks at 21psi. I always thought a modified vf34 would be a nice upgrade and you may beable to hit your 350whp goal. Not sure if its worth it though. Clark reccomended the atp gt3071 and gt3076 awhile back in this thread. They may be a better option.
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:52 PM   #3682
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i dont mind spending a bit of money on a different turbo if the lag is truly associated with the turbo.
i wouldn't hate a couple extra whp anyways and i feel the vf30 is running out of breath at high rpms anyways.

i do agree that there is more pipe to fill and not arguing there is a slight difference in a fmic and tmic but i just don't think that it would cause such a lag compared to the v39 on my old 02 wrx 2.0l motor.

i think these vf30 turbo's are just a laggy turbo. i've yet to have someone correct me and say "hey i run a vf30 and have no excessive lag on mine!"

also on a side note. what are the stock ej207 motors capable/ rated for power-wise before things start breaking / the motor is at risk? is 350whp 400whp 500whp? safe for these motors in stock form?
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:53 PM   #3683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrubywrx View Post
i ran the same fmic on a td04 on my wrx and made great power with low lag, then put a vf39 on my stock wrx motor and didnt see this lag issue either. i dont think the fmic is causing lag.
this hasnt been a "problem" till running the vf30 on the ej207.
its also been tuned, but only to 306 whp
Lag is more apparent when you are not in the ideal RPM range when you floor it and have to wait for the setup to come up to speed. You're not going to notice as much lag from a dig or when you are in the sweet spot when you punch it.
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:56 PM   #3684
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Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Lag is more apparent when you are not in the ideal RPM range when you floor it and have to wait for the setup to come up to speed. You're not going to notice as much lag from a dig or when you are in the sweet spot when you punch it.

i agree it hits like a ninja kick to the face in its favored rpm range, but i get really annoyed by the lag up until then. i guess my problem im trying to fix is how can i set things up / which parts can i install or switch to reduce lag and increase power without going overboard and breaking things all the time.
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:05 PM   #3685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrubywrx View Post
i agree it hits like a ninja kick to the face in its favored rpm range, but i get really annoyed by the lag up until then. i guess my problem im trying to fix is how can i set things up / which parts can i install or switch to reduce lag and increase power without going overboard and breaking things all the time.
Which headers and EBCS are you running?

I ran a FMIC before and i noticed it took slightly longer to spool up then with a TMIC when flooring it through non-ideal RPM range. From a dig and when it's in the sweet spot. Not much difference.
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:24 PM   #3686
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stock ebcs, tuned via open source and d-spec equal length headers / up-pipe
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:57 PM   #3687
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
[snip]... its a v8 TS vf37 setup.running a 3" DP with 2.35" cat back exhaust. this is killing spool up i know which is why i put a 3" cutout in the bottom of the DP. after this i will let you guys know how spool improves. same road, a few runs each back to back from the same rpm. I honestly believe spool up has alot to do with exh size as well which is why i am doing this test.

i run a verex muffler on my exhaust. the verex mufflers are the ones from australia that have a butterfly in the middle of it to open it up and make it a straight through muffler via remote control. so it's essentially a cutout embedded in a muffler. the rest of my exhaust is all straight pipes with the invidia 'big runner' EL headers, to a Dom 3 XTR, to an element tuning divorced wastegate downpipe, to a custom 3" catback with a 3.5" muffler at the end with the cutout in it. then the muffler butterfly is closed, it sends the exhaust through the muffler 3 (!) times, and it's ultra-quiet. as in, stock-with-three-cats-quiet. when i run it closed, i try not to run it WOT, but when i have, i've run it to around 5,500-6,000 rpm and only reached around 10psi of boost. with the butterfly open (full straight pipes from the headers back), i see 20psi by 4,000 rpm, depending on the gear, on up to 25psi at 4,500rpm. i know it's an extreme example, but yes, my findings support your thesis that our exhaust backpressure greatly affects spool and turbo response. it's a no-brainer, as turbos are run off of exhaust velocity, but to see it in action is pretty eye-opening.

oh, and i'm on SD also!
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:05 PM   #3688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrubywrx View Post
i agree it hits like a ninja kick to the face in its favored rpm range, but i get really annoyed by the lag up until then. i guess my problem im trying to fix is how can i set things up / which parts can i install or switch to reduce lag and increase power without going overboard and breaking things all the time.
i agree,its pretty annoying expecially when crusing around trying to go up hills,get up to speed ect. maybe we are just expecting too much? or need lower gearing to get us to the sweet spot quicker?

my friends 07 stg 2 wrx is much nicer to drive around town. i have 60whp on him though

also my new catback may have helped my spool a bit.

Last edited by mrxr250rider; 07-16-2012 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:20 PM   #3689
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Originally Posted by mattrubywrx View Post
stock ebcs, tuned via open source and d-spec equal length headers / up-pipe
get a grimm speed three port. it makes a huge diff when the wastegate is shut the entire time until it needs to open! your WG spring might be weak and openning a bit on its own too. i have a helper spring holding mine shut. works great. i have a mbc in parallel though. theres your lag problem!
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:22 PM   #3690
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im going to do the little things and look for improvement...
heat wrap on appropriate pipes, turbo inlet pipe (i have one laying around anyways), re-tighten all clamps on hoses, etc. see if anything improves a by even a couple revs sooner, if not its out with this turbo and onto something less laggy.
which is where suggestions come in

what are some good turbo options with minimal lag that mate up well with this ej207 motor?
(goals are better spooling time, and 350whp, this is my daily driver, my weekend warrior and my baby all in one lol)
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:24 PM   #3691
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
get a grimm speed three port. it makes a huge diff when the wastegate is shut the entire time until it needs to open! your WG spring might be weak and openning a bit on its own too. i have a helper spring holding mine shut. works great. i have a mbc in parallel though. theres your lag problem!

so your thinking its the ebcs or the wastegate spring? wouldnt the wastegate be more likely to open under heavier boost rather then during spool up? thanks for all the input guys.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:26 PM   #3692
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Originally Posted by mrxr250rider View Post
i agree,its pretty annoying expecially when crusing around trying to go up hills,get up to speed ect. maybe we are just expecting too much? or need lower gearing to get us to the sweet spot quicker?

my friends 07 stg 2 wrx is much nicer to drive around town. i have 60whp on him though

also my new catback may have helped my spool a bit.
if your going up a hill downshift then. its that simple. its still a 2 liter engine. no torque at low throttle openning and low rpms means no go up hill. HP doesnt take u up the hill. torque does. staying in higher gears going up hill is hard on engines any way you look at it. hopefully your timing map has a nice dropoff near 1.2 load as you go up the hill or it knocks like hell usually depending on fuel.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:28 PM   #3693
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
get a grimm speed three port. it makes a huge diff when the wastegate is shut the entire time until it needs to open! your WG spring might be weak and openning a bit on its own too. i have a helper spring holding mine shut. works great. i have a mbc in parallel though. theres your lag problem!
^ This

I'm not familiar with the D-spec headers, but I've had great results with the Tomei ELH. I love them and I think the only headers that are better are the Fullrace ones.

Keeping as much heat in the exhaust (pre-turbo) does improve spool. Paul from Yimi showed me on my car, by running the engine for a little bit to get the headers hot and then do the dyno pull. He also did a pull when the headers cooled down a bit (the engine is still at normal operating temp). It spooled 200 RPM slower through the entire band than with the hot headers.

Last edited by Fierysun; 07-16-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:34 PM   #3694
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so your thinking its the ebcs or the wastegate spring? wouldnt the wastegate be more likely to open under heavier boost rather then during spool up? thanks for all the input guys.
but if it starts cracking open air is going thru it that could be going around the turbine. start with ebcs.
as an example when i had the td04 the arm was one full turn out past being tight on the WG flapper. i couldnt build over 16psi w/o a boost line even hooked up to the actuator. turned it in and it boosted to 20+ psi like it should w/o a line hooked up. just for a split second test. air flows like water and takes the easy way.

imagine this with a larger heavier turbine wheel. if the flapper starts to crack the air is def going out that as much as it can. just so everyone knows the spring i put around the base of the arm and have it hooked up to the WG actuator. adds like 3 psi to the WG pressure value i figured out from hooking up to air compressor and comparing. i heard the vf37 had a weak actuator which is why i did this. i prob gained 100rpm spool from when i didnt have the spring believe it or not.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:44 PM   #3695
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i have a prodrive ebcs and an avo actuator. both do help spool/response.
i still think its a bit laggy. but maybe im just expecting too much or need lower gearing or different turbo to be 100 percent happy with it.

once you have good intake/exhaust flow, no leaks,ebcs and a good tune see if your happy with it.
mines came along away and def runs great and better than ever. more torque and better spool/response.

if the turbo came on sooner it would make for a better daily and easier to pass people out/go up hills without revving out so far. it would also be more forgiving for being in the wrong gear
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:45 PM   #3696
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
but if it starts cracking open air is going thru it that could be going around the turbine. start with ebcs.
as an example when i had the td04 the arm was one full turn out past being tight on the WG flapper. i couldnt build over 16psi w/o a boost line even hooked up to the actuator. turned it in and it boosted to 20+ psi like it should w/o a line hooked up. just for a split second test. air flows like water and takes the easy way.

ill have to take a look for a ebcs and ill get at the wastegate on my next weekend off,
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:55 PM   #3697
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
if your going up a hill downshift then. its that simple. its still a 2 liter engine. no torque at low throttle openning and low rpms means no go up hill. HP doesnt take u up the hill. torque does. staying in higher gears going up hill is hard on engines any way you look at it. hopefully your timing map has a nice dropoff near 1.2 load as you go up the hill or it knocks like hell usually depending on fuel.
yeah it sucks lol. im prob expecting too much out of the lil 2.0l. lower gearing would help and/or quicker spooling turbo.

i just kinda hate the fact i have to downshift and push the car to the sweet spot just to make it up hill.

more torque(from tune) and lighter wheels has helped quite a bit though.
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:26 PM   #3698
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What are you guys getting for MPG's?

I'm on the 5spd and on my ej205 I averaged about 22-24 MPG in town and as good as 28 MPG on highway drives.

Now I'm only getting about 20MPG in town and 22-23 on the highway, same 5spd tranny.

My AFR's at cruising (no load) run 14.2-14.3 according to my Innovate Wideband. I thought it might be my 02 sensor, so I replaced that, with no changes.

What do you guys think? Is this too rich? Shouldn't I be closer to 14.7? Could that be the problem?
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:53 PM   #3699
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well are you tuned? post maf pre turbo leak?

my tune has 48* adv at 2800rpms up to 1.0 load then drops to 40* adv at 1.1 load. towards 2000rpms it drops to 44*. as far as avcs i am at 40* adv in the cruising cells. before i adv the avcs and timing so much i was aroiund 23/24 combo mpgs. now i am always over 26 combo. got 27 pulling a trailer w/ 700lbs total weight going 61mph. you need to log A LOT to make sure the fuel you get can handle the high timing. i have zero knock were i am at even after heat soaking in traffic. this includes flkc and fbkc. i also altered my O2 sensor scaling so it targets 15.0 instead of 14.7. 5mt trans. after i get my taller geared ppg trans i will get even better city since the gears are longer. 5th is still stock though.

i personally like the taller gears for one i drag race so getting up to 108ish in third is nice with my setup.

as far as your innovate problem. i have logged mine when i was targeting 14.7 and it read like 14.1-14.7 on the gauge but 14.5-14.9 in romraider. the scaling that the gauge uses is a bit richer than what they are actually reading from what i have seen on multiple cars.

on the going up hills subject. not sure what kinda hills you hit but northern wi is full of up and downs. in fifth with some luggage and two others in the car cruising at 61/62 i rarley go over 0psi. maybe 2/3 psi on the large ones. when i am cruising at 70 it never goes over 0psi. the engine has more power 600 rpms higher and with the high timing and avcs adv it doesnt need to be downshifted.

to mattrubywrx. get a ebcs and get retune for that. if you want rock solid boost control get a hallman bcs and look up how to run them in parallel. set your WG tables to 85-90% in the 100% throttle range. setup the tables how you would usually set them. then turn your mbc down. slowly turn it up doing wot pulls until it hits your target numbers in your table. it will now make it so you cant overboost. and the ebcs will let air in when the boost needs to be less than max.
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:05 PM   #3700
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This may be a dumb question in here, but wheres a GOOD place to find a bare 207? I really just need a good pair of block halves.
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