Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday July 31, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-18-2013, 04:35 PM   #5426
25rsti
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 166324
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Haverhill, MA
Vehicle:
3 turbos &n NA
@DBlockSTi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Hey I just want to throw this out there for you guys, since so many people are running non-matching ECUs. There are two different MAP sensors on these motors and ECUs. Make sure you are setup for the proper sensor otherwise you will be running ~2.3 psi higher or lower than you think. On an unrelated side note the VF36 feels amazing on E85 at 26 Psi

USDM 02-05 WRX 2.8 BAR sensor
JDM v7-v8 01-04 2.8 BAR sensor
JDM v9 05+ 3.0 BAR sensor

2.8 BAR Multiplier=9.943 Offset=-8.005
3.0 BAR Multiplier=9.943 Offset=-5.666
What's this mean for me? I'm running a v9 with v7 ecu.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
25rsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 04:59 PM   #5427
lukeskywrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59837
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Arizona
Vehicle:
2004 Spec-C Type RA
What MAF? -Speed Density!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
What's this mean for me? I'm running a v9 with v7 ecu.
You likely have the wrong scalar and are running 2+ psi of boost higher than you think you are.
lukeskywrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:05 PM   #5428
WRXt4cy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172698
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Des Moines, IA
Vehicle:
11 STi Dom_3.5 E85
02 v8 Spec C E85

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
What's this mean for me? I'm running a v9 with v7 ecu.
Has your car been tuned? This is a quick fix that you or your tuner could take care of very quickly by opening up your rom in ECUFlash and setting the correct values.

lukeskywrx - thank you for pointing this out. I had over looked this on a customer's tune who is running a v9 engine w/ a v8 ecu.
WRXt4cy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:12 PM   #5429
johnfelstead
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 856
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Hampshire, England, UK
Vehicle:
2005 JDM STi
Black

Default

Map sensor calibration graphs, coutesy of my engine mapper Bob Rawle.



Sensors are


The early sensor is good to measure up to 224 KPa
The MY97 to MY00 sensor is good to measure up to 280 KPa
The AA170/171 sensor is good to measure up to 270 KPa (MY01-04 JDM and Euro)
The AA380 sensor is good to measure up to 270 KPa (MY06-07 Euro)
The AA280 sensor is good to measure up to 300 KPa. (MY05 JDM and Spec C)
GM 3 Bar calibration for comparison.
4 bar Omnipower (the same as a Perrin 4 BAR.)

Using the 4 BAR sensor will throw a CEL and bypass the idle control strategy because the voltage at idle vacumn is outside the range allowed in the map on the drive by wire JDM ECU. This results in the idle speed drifting upwards until you blip the throttle, where it will reset the idle speed then throw a CEL and start drifting up again.

From the graph you can see what the ECU voltage offset will be for the V7 and V9 MAP sensors.
johnfelstead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:31 PM   #5430
25rsti
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 166324
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Haverhill, MA
Vehicle:
3 turbos &n NA
@DBlockSTi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Has your car been tuned? This is a quick fix that you or your tuner could take care of very quickly by opening up your rom in ECUFlash and setting the correct values.

Not yet, I just got her running this week. Thanks for the info.
25rsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:44 PM   #5431
WRXt4cy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172698
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Des Moines, IA
Vehicle:
11 STi Dom_3.5 E85
02 v8 Spec C E85

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
Not yet, I just got her running this week. Thanks for the info.
No problem. Just mention it to your tuner. Its easy to over look I'd say since there aren't a ton of JDM swaps out there.

I'm sure you know this, but don't even think about going WOT on the stock tune unless you pump race gas into the tank.
WRXt4cy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #5432
lukeskywrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59837
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Arizona
Vehicle:
2004 Spec-C Type RA
What MAF? -Speed Density!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
I'm sure you know this, but don't even think about going WOT on the stock tune unless you pump race gas into the tank.
More for 91 than those with access to 93/94 oct, The stock JDM tune just barely knocks on the top end running 91. Higher octane should be fine but it is always safer to double check.

Stock v9 on a 581 ecu running 91, Thanks to Amroof for playing guinea pig with his motor. Knocking above 6K. Ignore the weird lines, his old netbook logged data weird.

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 01-18-2013 at 05:59 PM.
lukeskywrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 05:52 PM   #5433
WRXt4cy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172698
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Des Moines, IA
Vehicle:
11 STi Dom_3.5 E85
02 v8 Spec C E85

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
More for 91 than those with access to 93/94 oct, The stock JDM tune just barely knocks on the top end running 91. Higher octane should be fine but it is always safer to double check.
Granted I haven't done any personal experimenting but looking at the mapping and hearing from people who ran un-tuned even on 93 has shown me that this isn't a good idea. The timing seems far too aggressive IMO even for 93 (I've never seen higher than 93 in all the areas I've been in or traveled to).

My understanding was that the stock ECU tuning requires Japan's premium fuel which is around 95 - 96 octane.

Edit: That's an interesting plot, thanks for sharing that. So it did knock around 6000 rpms and it probably is running pretty rich in typical Subaru tuning fashion but that is still a LOT of timing.

Last edited by WRXt4cy; 01-18-2013 at 06:01 PM.
WRXt4cy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 06:01 PM   #5434
johnfelstead
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 856
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Hampshire, England, UK
Vehicle:
2005 JDM STi
Black

Default

They are mapped for 100RON in Japan.

USA Octane is calculated as (RON+MON)/2) which will mean typically your 93 Octane is the same as Japanese 98RON, your 95 Octane would be close to Japanese 100RON.

I wouldnt be giving it large beans on 91 US Octane fuel, 93 Octane is pushing your luck, i'd expect to see a lot of knock retard using that, which thankfully the NewAge ECU's are very good at managing, but not something you should rely on ideally.
johnfelstead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 06:24 PM   #5435
lukeskywrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59837
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Arizona
Vehicle:
2004 Spec-C Type RA
What MAF? -Speed Density!

Default

Michigan has 94 in addition to a few other places. It is best to get tuned but it is not as disastrous as everyone makes it seem if you run 93. Also ya these things run an outrageous amount of timing, but that is what you gotta do with low compression and short stroke.

JDM Gas also has no ethanol in it according to their standards.
lukeskywrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 06:30 PM   #5436
WRXt4cy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172698
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Des Moines, IA
Vehicle:
11 STi Dom_3.5 E85
02 v8 Spec C E85

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Michigan has 94 in addition to a few other places. It is best to get tuned but it is not as disastrous as everyone makes it seem if you run 93. Also ya these things run an outrageous amount of timing, but that is what you gotta do with low compression and short stroke.

JDM Gas also has no ethanol in it according to their standards.
I like to over exaggerate this point to people but I think we are on the same page in general.

Non-ethanol fuel would keep AFRs richer like the OL fueling map commands so that's another thing consider.
WRXt4cy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 12:02 AM   #5437
turboedracer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 107617
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: lost in the sticks
Vehicle:
2006 sti
the blueness

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Rodman View Post
Do not ignore the idlers, tensioner, water pump, etc, replace everything at the same time as the belt, don't wait till you're sorry you didn't do it right the first time. Something other than the belt fails and the results can be just as bad.
Yeah I would be doing the whole kit. I guess my question turned in to something more then a yes or no answer. I just wanted to know if I could use the same timing belt kit they use on a USDM STi for the EJ207. I've owned 3 WRX/STi since 04 I know how to do the maintance and take care of them but new to the EJ207 I know I shouldn't need a race timing belt its pushing just under 300 WHP and tourque. I've never experianced any "ringland" with any of my subies beacuse I'm anal about all maintaince and I don't race my car every where I go. I believe if you take car of your car it will take car of you .
turboedracer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 12:11 AM   #5438
mrxr250rider
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271412
Join Date: Jan 2011
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: avoca pa
Vehicle:
05 ej207 wrx wagon
wrb

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfelstead View Post

I've been running JDM STi's since 2000, doing a huge amount of miles on track and road, current MY05 JDM STi engine is running 500BHP and 540FtLb, i've always used OEM or equivilent gates spec belts.

I wouldn't change from this unless changing to a none OEM camshaft/valve spring configuration that would load the belt up more, OEM is designed for an 8200rpm limiter spec.

Change your belt every 5 years, irespective of mileage, and do the idlers and tensioner at the same time.
Good info maybe I should get mine checked first.
mrxr250rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 04:42 AM   #5439
D-Rodman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 110078
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Long Island N.Y.
Vehicle:
2005 92x - 02 wrx
silver 92x-wrb bugeye wag

Default

My timing belt and components all looked fresh on my 207 when I got it. I still replaced everything because I want to drive it with peace of mind. I have some good coin invested in this project, left nothing to chance.
D-Rodman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 07:30 AM   #5440
RealDealTarheel
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 142447
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Purgatory, USA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Banged Up Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
More for 91 than those with access to 93/94 oct, The stock JDM tune just barely knocks on the top end running 91. Higher octane should be fine but it is always safer to double check.

Stock v9 on a 581 ecu running 91, Thanks to Amroof for playing guinea pig with his motor. Knocking above 6K. Ignore the weird lines, his old netbook logged data weird.
Mine did similar things on Shell 93, it didn't cause any damage but the obvious advice is to get it detuned for our gas.
RealDealTarheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 08:15 AM   #5441
25rsti
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 166324
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Haverhill, MA
Vehicle:
3 turbos &n NA
@DBlockSTi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
No problem. Just mention it to your tuner. Its easy to over look I'd say since there aren't a ton of JDM swaps out there.

I'm sure you know this, but don't even think about going WOT on the stock tune unless you pump race gas into the tank.
I'm not driving her yet still got a few things to do before she's road ready but I did fuel her up with 110 race fuel for just these reasons.
25rsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 09:13 AM   #5442
Vlad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46135
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Powered by Sti V9 Spec C

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfelstead View Post
They are mapped for 100RON in Japan.
They are not.
You are driving a JDM Sti, right? I have the Owners manual, let me know if you're interested, ill send it to you. It is in Japanese, but there are plenty of automatic translators.

Also anyone that wants to, is welcome to go to Subaru of Japan and click their way to the PDF with the specs of the spec C. Once you hit it with google translator, see if anywhere in there you see the words "100 RON".
They are not there....

Also, the timing of any engine is specific to that engine. Many look at the timing of the 257 and then say "the 207 runs waaaaay too much timing".

The reality is that a completely stock Spec C, stock intake, exhaust, everything, should have very little trouble with 93 AKI fuel.

The problems are because
1. These engines are quite pushed from the factory tune and very sensitive to mods. Once you have any mod, all bets are off, you need a tune. And no matter how small, we all have mods, nobody is running JDM EJ207 100% stock. So yes, you do need a tune to be safe.
2. The make up of the fuel does seem to be different and under my opinion accounts for those slight problems seen at the top end.

Cliff notes: yes, you need a tune with US fuel, not because of JDM Octane.
Vlad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 12:38 PM   #5443
johnfelstead
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 856
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Hampshire, England, UK
Vehicle:
2005 JDM STi
Black

Default

The performance figures given for the JDM spec cars is given based on it using 100RON fuel, this has always been the case with the JDM cars, even the P1 (a Prodrive UK version of the STi5) has it's spec listed using 100RON fuel, even though you couldn't buy 100RON fuel in the UK at the time. The physical knock sensor circuit on the P1 ECU, which was a JDM ECU with JDM STi5 maps, was modified to make it more active to cope with UK 98RON, it typically pulls 2 degrees timing out on 98RON fuel. You could run this on 95RON as a get you home safely situation, but the ECU pulled 3 degrees timing out.

Using a fuel of a lower grade drops the peformance and introduces some timing retard and fueling changes. On the earlier JDM's this was a big problem, with Newage cars the ECU's are much more sophisticated and have enough strategies in place to protect the engines pretty well. But dont kid yourself, on the stock tune on lower than 100RON fuel the engine is not performing to the design specs.
johnfelstead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 01:06 PM   #5444
WRXt4cy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 172698
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Des Moines, IA
Vehicle:
11 STi Dom_3.5 E85
02 v8 Spec C E85

Default

Vlad - I don't think its so much that Subaru specifies "100 RON" as it is that they simply specify premium fuel and in Japan, that happens to be 100 RON.
WRXt4cy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 01:35 PM   #5445
Vlad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46135
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Powered by Sti V9 Spec C

Default

The premium, according to several sources, including the JIS ( Japan Industrial standard), that I have already copied in this tread earlier and can post another link, is only mandated to be 96 RON or better.
Since at the pump you have makings in words (such as premium ) and since Subaru guarantees that the spec C runs 100% on premium, per their owners manual, this is not where you will find the problem.

Japan does sell at the pump a "super plus " which to my understanding is 100+ RON , but does not indicate in any owners manual that the car should be fueled only with the super plus.
Lets not forget that US also sells at some pumps 100AKI which is quite a high number, but nobody (to my knowledge) specifies cars on that at the factory.

There is factual data showing knock, just that the cause is in a different location.

I don't doubt that your info is correct, John, but that looks a bit like a homologation process and like you say, it has its rules.

Lets also not forget that the plain brand new USDM STI also suffered from knock at one point on stock tune. By that standard, Thing are possible...
Vlad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 01:49 PM   #5446
johnfelstead
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 856
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Hampshire, England, UK
Vehicle:
2005 JDM STi
Black

Default

Trust me on this, we have a lot more experience of JDM motors in the UK and the consequencies of running low octane fuel on unmapped JDM's, they dont like it.
johnfelstead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 02:39 PM   #5447
Vlad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46135
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Powered by Sti V9 Spec C

Default

This is not about debating that it is bad to run un tuned on US pump fuel.

You should get tuned, I'll be the first to say.

The only thing that my research shows is that the JDM fuel is different in octane that what most say.
And I will post a link later, you can take a look and see if you agree or not.
Vlad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 02:46 PM   #5448
lukeskywrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59837
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Arizona
Vehicle:
2004 Spec-C Type RA
What MAF? -Speed Density!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfelstead View Post
Trust me on this, we have a lot more experience of JDM motors in the UK and the consequencies of running low octane fuel on unmapped JDM's, they dont like it.
By not liking it are you talking reduced IAM? These ECUs are all tuned aggressively and will push right up against the knock threshold of the fuel they run. Realistically that is the only way to get peak performance out of a street car and all modern vehicles do it. Knock is inevitable and not the worst thing until you get to the power levels where the knock event breaks the gas film barrier in the cylinder and interacts with the metal where it can cause pitting.

A stock USDM STI for example will likely drop IAM on a hot day running 91. And realistically it only takes a few degrees of timing to make the JDM motor safe on 91-93 oct gas.
lukeskywrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 04:43 PM   #5449
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Stock v9 on a 581 ecu running 91, Thanks to Amroof for playing guinea pig with his motor. Knocking above 6K. Ignore the weird lines, his old netbook logged data weird.
Holy cow these things have a lot of timing in them.

EJ205 on ACN91 handles somewhere around 10 degrees at peak boost... these are running 25+ degrees?

Must be the relatively large piston to deck clearance the EJ207 engine has relative to the EJ205.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 06:27 PM   #5450
lukeskywrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59837
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Arizona
Vehicle:
2004 Spec-C Type RA
What MAF? -Speed Density!

Default

AVCS helps and decent gas does not hurt, I ran my 205 at +20 of timing on e85 without issue but not on 91. It is actually a really good way to get torque from a small motor. Rather than go hotter with a leaner mixture you increase pressure with timing and throw a ton of fuel at it to keep things cool.
lukeskywrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ej207 owner wants opinions adbramsay Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 2 02-26-2011 07:29 PM
Ej207 V6 AndrewFD3 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 10 06-03-2010 04:53 PM
JDM Sti EJ207 V9 crank 75mm or billet crank (K1, Manley) VENDORS ??? L'frise Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 7 06-03-2010 09:24 AM
08 ej207 JDM dual AVCS heads on a built v7 ej207 icev7 Built Motor Discussion 17 02-21-2010 03:21 PM
Ver 8 EJ207 Owners Check In spoolinsuby Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 21 10-17-2005 01:56 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.