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Old 02-10-2013, 07:47 PM   #5651
WRXt4cy
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Originally Posted by johnfelstead View Post
That is Andy Forrest's 3.6 litre twin turbo H6 he uses mainly on the drag strip. It has just over 1000BHP, was running about 800BHP that day. That car does 0 - 202mph in 15 seconds and 8 second 1/4 miles, it's fully road legal.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:05 PM   #5652
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I wouldnt want to push that much torque out of a stock motor, the rods and pistons wouldnt like it, i'd expect you would be lifting the heads too.

Top end is stock, heads, cams, valves, inlet plenum etc. Bottom end is a 2.1 using Mahle 2618 pistons, manley rods and stock ej257 crank, stock block, oil pump. I converted it to RCMS 14mm/12mm Group A studs to handle the boost, using Cosworth head gaskets. EcuTek 800cc injectors, stock twin scroll headers and uppipe. It's a relatively cheap forged build really, you could stick with a 2.0 litre and save on the cost of a crank.

Engine is mapped using EcuTek with the stock MAF in a larger induction kit.

Engine bay is pretty stock looking.

Thats awesome. Do you have any Info on part numbers for The internals?
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:40 PM   #5653
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I posted this question in my Newbie Thread this morning and thought I might get better answers in this thread.

I am doing a V7 swap. According Turbo List thread the VF30/34 that come with the JDM V7 use the same P18 exhaust housing as the USDM VF39.

Same exhaust housing, so will a USDM aftermarket downpipe bolt up?

I know the V8/V9 JDM motors use a twin scroll and it will not fit those turbos.

I've searched this thread, used google, and RSD says they can't comment on JDM fitment. Any input would be great. Thank you!
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #5654
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Originally Posted by JLD13 View Post
I posted this question in my Newbie Thread this morning and thought I might get better answers in this thread.

I am doing a V7 swap. According Turbo List thread the VF30/34 that come with the JDM V7 use the same P18 exhaust housing as the USDM VF39.

Same exhaust housing, so will a USDM aftermarket downpipe bolt up?

I know the V8/V9 JDM motors use a twin scroll and it will not fit those turbos.

I've searched this thread, used google, and RSD says they can't comment on JDM fitment. Any input would be great. Thank you!
They are the same so the same cracking happens. BUT will they physically mate up I'm not sure it is not the 34 that has the same housing. I believe it's only the VF30 on the version 7 engine and the VF39 on the EJ257 from the USDM STI.

Damn it! EDIT: yes the VF30/34 will bolt up. Thought I put this in but didn't.

Last edited by iNfEk; 02-11-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:32 PM   #5655
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Originally Posted by JLD13 View Post
I posted this question in my Newbie Thread this morning and thought I might get better answers in this thread.

I am doing a V7 swap. According Turbo List thread the VF30/34 that come with the JDM V7 use the same P18 exhaust housing as the USDM VF39.

Same exhaust housing, so will a USDM aftermarket downpipe bolt up?

I know the V8/V9 JDM motors use a twin scroll and it will not fit those turbos.

I've searched this thread, used google, and RSD says they can't comment on JDM fitment. Any input would be great. Thank you!
Yes a VF30/34 will bolt up to a USDM Aftermarket Downpipe.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:13 PM   #5656
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Thank you Kayen!

BTW so much awesome information in this thread.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:25 PM   #5657
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Thats awesome. Do you have any Info on part numbers for The internals?
Thanks.

My pistons are a slightly different version to the usual Mahle items to run a higher CR, but the normal Mahle 2618 stroker pistons would be what i would use on your pump fuel for this sort of torque. The 2618 material is much stronger than the 4032, but expands more so you need to run larger piston/bore clearances (i use 0.0035"). This makes the engine a bit noisier than stock when cold, but once warm it's not far from stock, you can tell you have forged pistons in there when stood outside, but cant hear them in the car.

Mine are mahle sub193642p08 92.5mm, you wont be able to buy these as they were special order, the usual equivilent you can buy is mahle sub193642p16. The difference is mine are 8cc, the ones you can buy and what i would sugest you use are 16cc. 8cc are more fuel critical, not a problem for me but may be for some of you guys.

Rods are the Manley 14024-4 H beam, had i realised i would get this sort of torque i may have gone up a rod spec, but they seem happy enough.

Crank is a stock EJ257

Head studs are RCMS Group A 14/12mm (the block is machined for a 14mm stud, the head is untouched so you can use stock spec gaskets) http://www.rogerclarkmotorsport.co.u...?productID=157

Head gaskets are cosworth 0.78mm items, spec these for the CR you wish to run.

main bearings are ACL Race, big ends are Mahle motorsport.

Oil pump is stock, i just took the plunger out and polished it, and checked the pump condition and clearances. when you put that back together loctite the screws on the back of the pump as they have a tendency to work loose.

I use a cosworth baffle plate for the sprints i do. The twin scroll sump seems to be better than the single scroll sump with regards to surge. I use an RCMS return to sump breather system, again just for sprinting as you get some oil in the breathers on heavy cornering, not had any issues using the above.

Intake pipe is a samco sport 76mm item, i had to get them to change the spec of these to a much stronger extra reinforced item, as the turbo was sucking it shut. They should now be selling only the extra reinforced items but there will be some earlier spec items out there that this turbo will just eat. Dont use a soft inlet pipe if you cant get samco where you are, use a strong reinforced item.

injectors are EcuTek 800cc http://www.ecutek.com/Products/Injec...-Top-Feed.aspx these are specifically designed to match exactly the OEM injector plenum positioning.

turbo is Owen Developments Twin Scroll direct bolt on item.

To give you an idea of how quick the car is, the car is a full weight JDM STi, with me and fuel onboard it's 1570kg (3472 lb). Using EcuTek Delta Dash it shows in 4th gear

40 - 60mph = 1.8 seconds
50 - 70mph = 1.5 seconds
60 - 80mph = 1.6 seconds
70 - 90mph = 1.8 seconds
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:46 PM   #5658
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I'll be very interested in seeing your results. I ordered up my Dom 1.5XT-R w/10cm on friday, hoping to have it installed by the end of the week.

My last VD log showed 331 hp/390 tq on E85 with the VF37. It would be nice to crack 400hp, but honestly not concerned with how much power I make as long as it pulls all the way to redline, I'll be happy.

I'm seeing ~16-18 mpg with E85. Typically there is some asshattery involved in each tank of gas.


thats about what i saw on e85 with mixed driving. on flat highways cruising at night w/ no traffic i got 27 mpgs on a 380 mile round trip. one tank of gas basically. calculated it out to 27mpgs. im using my ppg 5mt trans which helps a ton over the 6mt. i have read that the ej207's at lower elevation and w/ a 5mt can get into the 28/29 range. i had about 150 lbs of tools and another guy with me so dropping the extra weight would help. now that its winter i am getting about 20mpgs mixed city/highway. the crappy winter fuel. drifting when it shows and meaty winter tires dont help anything in the winter.

i have accomplished the higher mpgs with aggressive avcs and timing. it will be easier when i do speed desnity but i based my final values off the lowest recorded injector duty cycle on the same stretch of highway within an hour of tuning and limited traffic all cruise control. i have also taken out some of the compensation that brings the CL numbers down to 14.5. i put the target at 14.7 and made compensations zero for the most part. on e85 i targeted 15.0 afr with steady egts that were nothing more than pump gas numbers.

as far as VD numbers was that on the dynojet or vd settings and what correction factor? smoothing? im going to retune my car tomorrow on 93 since i threw in id1000's and have drove a few weeks without finalizing the tune. ill post my numbers up but hell when i tuned my car on e85 i didnt push timing too much more since its already pretty high for what it is on 93 octane. if i could get 390 wtq i would be plenty happy. i think the best i got was 340 on the virtual dyno settings on VD
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #5659
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thats about what i saw on e85 with mixed driving. on flat highways cruising at night w/ no traffic i got 27 mpgs on a 380 mile round trip. one tank of gas basically. calculated it out to 27mpgs. im using my ppg 5mt trans which helps a ton over the 6mt. i have read that the ej207's at lower elevation and w/ a 5mt can get into the 28/29 range. i had about 150 lbs of tools and another guy with me so dropping the extra weight would help. now that its winter i am getting about 20mpgs mixed city/highway. the crappy winter fuel. drifting when it shows and meaty winter tires dont help anything in the winter.

i have accomplished the higher mpgs with aggressive avcs and timing. it will be easier when i do speed desnity but i based my final values off the lowest recorded injector duty cycle on the same stretch of highway within an hour of tuning and limited traffic all cruise control. i have also taken out some of the compensation that brings the CL numbers down to 14.5. i put the target at 14.7 and made compensations zero for the most part. on e85 i targeted 15.0 afr with steady egts that were nothing more than pump gas numbers.

as far as VD numbers was that on the dynojet or vd settings and what correction factor? smoothing? im going to retune my car tomorrow on 93 since i threw in id1000's and have drove a few weeks without finalizing the tune. ill post my numbers up but hell when i tuned my car on e85 i didnt push timing too much more since its already pretty high for what it is on 93 octane. if i could get 390 wtq i would be plenty happy. i think the best i got was 340 on the virtual dyno settings on VD
What do you mean by "aggressive avcs and timing"? You just crank them up like an MPGs knob?

You should be looking for optimal avcs and timing values. If I am understanding what you are saying, you are running high avcs like the stock EJ207 map has in the cruise areas and you've advanced the timing a lot.

Its been well documented that the high avcs values in the cruise region are there to promote EGR and help with emissions. From the testing I've been doing, it doesn't help with fuel economy. I've found that lower avcs values and optimal timing provides the best fuel economy. I'm still working on finding the best combination.

You can also lean your light cruise AFR out a little more on E85 and you'll see some benefit.

Last edited by WRXt4cy; 02-12-2013 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:21 PM   #5660
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You say "optimal timing," but how do you find "optimal?"

The only way I know of is to do what he mentioned... log IDCs on the same stretch of highway on cruise control. I've done this and for the road I log on, I can tell my physical location just from looking at a section of a log just from looking at the IDC, because there are telltale inclines / declines that IDC mimics. You can also do this with the air side with MAP. I can't just use any old section of road, because small inclines or declines can totally screw with your average unless you are on the same road so these affect all your comparisons equally.

Is that what you did? Do you have a less tedious method?

It's easy to overshoot or undershoot "optimal" in cruisee areas where you aren't going to det, especially without a dyno. I'm curious as to your method of finding "optimal" timing.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:43 PM   #5661
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You say "optimal timing," but how do you find "optimal?"

The only way I know of is to do what he mentioned... log IDCs on the same stretch of highway on cruise control. I've done this and for the road I log on, I can tell my physical location just from looking at a section of a log just from looking at the IDC, because there are telltale inclines / declines that IDC mimics. You can also do this with the air side with MAP. I can't just use any old section of road, because small inclines or declines can totally screw with your average unless you are on the same road so these affect all your comparisons equally.

Is that what you did? Do you have a less tedious method?

It's easy to overshoot or undershoot "optimal" in cruisee areas where you aren't going to det, especially without a dyno. I'm curious as to your method of finding "optimal" timing.
The back to back testing method using the same stretch of road is a pretty good way to do it but working on a load bearing dyno is a lot more effective.

So far I've been working on a particular road that is very straight and flat but I'm going to test my findings on the dyno soon to see if they are consistent.

In general, its a tedious thing to test with open source. I really wish OS had real time tuning like the AP. That's one thing its way behind on.

What did you find for the best avcs and timing in your testing?
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:29 PM   #5662
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What did you find for the best avcs and timing in your testing?
I've only done the EJ205 so far. The 207 is in, but I didn't have a clutch alignment tool, screwed that up when I swapped in my garage... so it's at the shop today, I should pick it up tomorrow to start tuning. WOT first, then cruise.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:39 PM   #5663
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Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
I've only done the EJ205 so far. The 207 is in, but I didn't have a clutch alignment tool, screwed that up when I swapped in my garage... so it's at the shop today, I should pick it up tomorrow to start tuning. WOT first, then cruise.
Ahh ok. I'll be interested to see your results.

Like most other people on this thread, I don't care about being right or wrong about what is optimal. I just want to try to figure it out and grow the collective knowledge on the EJ207.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:10 PM   #5664
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Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Ahh ok. I'll be interested to see your results.

Like most other people on this thread, I don't care about being right or wrong about what is optimal. I just want to try to figure it out and grow the collective knowledge on the EJ207.
ditto. if im doing something wrong im more than willing to listen. just shared what i knew. if i got time thursday i will turn the avcs way down and see what it results. i was told by more than one tuner from the site but with ej257 they cranked the timing and avcs way up and yielded the best mpgs. 20 in the winter and im not complaining. i do a ton of city driving anyways and just logging estimated mpgs on RR it shows like 3-8 mpg during acceleration. doing that a dozen times every direction and you yield lower mpgs. no biggie!

as mentioned i do target leaner values (15.0) in the cruise area with e85. i try to keep the 14.7 target dead nuts when on pump gas. 93 obv
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:05 AM   #5665
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
ditto. if im doing something wrong im more than willing to listen. just shared what i knew. if i got time thursday i will turn the avcs way down and see what it results. i was told by more than one tuner from the site but with ej257 they cranked the timing and avcs way up and yielded the best mpgs. 20 in the winter and im not complaining. i do a ton of city driving anyways and just logging estimated mpgs on RR it shows like 3-8 mpg during acceleration. doing that a dozen times every direction and you yield lower mpgs. no biggie!

as mentioned i do target leaner values (15.0) in the cruise area with e85. i try to keep the 14.7 target dead nuts when on pump gas. 93 obv
What kind of avcs timing are you running? mine is cranked way up and I still get 14mpg, I also do alot of highway driving with a close ratio 6speed.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:39 AM   #5666
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That is why I recommend the 1/8 BSP(British standard pipe thread) that can use the PCV valve threads.

I am not 100% sure but I think the OEM temp sensor uses that same thread size as well, or at least could be retapped for it.
Briefly compared them while I had the manifold off tonight, definitely not the same thread size. As for retapping, I'm not sure, they're about the same size but the pcv has much tighter threads.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:11 AM   #5667
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I'm not sure AVCS helps with fuel consumption...

tried turning it down to 0 and compare ?
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:30 AM   #5668
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AVCS is about getting air into and through the motor, use it for torque and spooling the turbo. With high manifold vacuum such as during cruising you can get some EGR type effects but that is not our focus.

WRick- I know when you tried my AVCS map you commented on how spoolup increased by ~300 RPM and it leaned you out a bunch since you are putting more air through the motor. That is all good for torque/spool and bad for mileage

in a very simple explanation, with low port air velocity AVCS can help get more air into the cylinders. The AVCS operation can be broken into 4 basic areas

Vacuum Low RPM- Advanced AVCS causes EGR if there is enough oil pressure to advance
Vacuum High RPM- Not trying to make torque so I turn it off
Boost Low RPM- Low port velocity lots of AVCS increases torque and spoolup
Boost High RPM- High port velocity lots of AVCS not very useful, a little bit of AVCS can be helpful sometimes if you are not turbo limited

NOTE: Just remember you can program all the AVCS you want, but if there is not enough oil pressure you cannot advance the cams all the way. Setpoint avcs and achieved avcs are two different things.

This is my power AVCS map


If I was going for mileage I would do something like this, limits air to the motor when it is not needed as much.



And for all the maniacs out there here is your anti-lag AVCS map

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:39 AM   #5669
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Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
AVCS is about getting air into and through the motor, use it for torque and spooling the turbo. With high manifold vacuum such as during cruising you can get some EGR type effects but that is not our focus.

WRick- I know when you tried my AVCS map you commented on how spoolup increased by ~300 RPM and it leaned you out a bunch since you are putting more air through the motor. That is all good for torque/spool and bad for mileage

in a very simple explanation, with low port air velocity AVCS can help get more air into the cylinders. The AVCS operation can be broken into 4 basic areas

Vacuum Low RPM- Advanced AVCS causes EGR if there is enough oil pressure to advance
Vacuum High RPM- Not trying to make torque so I turn it off
Boost Low RPM- Low port velocity lots of AVCS increases torque and spoolup
Boost High RPM- High port velocity lots of AVCS not very useful, a little bit of AVCS can be helpful sometimes if you are not turbo limited

that was exactly what I had in mind. I don't give a crap's ass for MPG's, it's already ****ty. 5% better is still ****ty. I'll take the better spool up !

And yes, I'm spooling an td05-18g 21 PSI @ 31xx RPM's. on a 2.0L.

edit :

thanks for sharing btw !

Last edited by WRick; 02-13-2013 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:22 PM   #5670
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Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
AVCS is about getting air into and through the motor, use it for torque and spooling the turbo. With high manifold vacuum such as during cruising you can get some EGR type effects but that is not our focus.

WRick- I know when you tried my AVCS map you commented on how spoolup increased by ~300 RPM and it leaned you out a bunch since you are putting more air through the motor. That is all good for torque/spool and bad for mileage

in a very simple explanation, with low port air velocity AVCS can help get more air into the cylinders. The AVCS operation can be broken into 4 basic areas

Vacuum Low RPM- Advanced AVCS causes EGR if there is enough oil pressure to advance
Vacuum High RPM- Not trying to make torque so I turn it off
Boost Low RPM- Low port velocity lots of AVCS increases torque and spoolup
Boost High RPM- High port velocity lots of AVCS not very useful, a little bit of AVCS can be helpful sometimes if you are not turbo limited

NOTE: Just remember you can program all the AVCS you want, but if there is not enough oil pressure you cannot advance the cams all the way. Setpoint avcs and achieved avcs are two different things.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and maps.

Perhaps I'm missing something, its early still, but it seems like you have too much resolution in the vacuum area of your AVCS maps.

Assuming your atmospheric pressure is somewhere around 14, you would only have about 4 columns of your map for positive relative pressure. You probably cruise at around 9 psi absolute so that would mean in your power avcs map, you cruise, spool and peak your boost @ 40* avcs. I don't think you'd spend much time if the first 4 columns of your map. They would seem to cover idle and just off idle. Is this correct or am I missing something?

You're mileage map example is closer to what I'm running now. I'm working up and down from around 20* avcs at cruise, ramping up quickly starting at loads around 1.2 then tapering down similar to what you have. This seems to have the best off boost response, best spool and great top end. I'm just trying to find the best cruise values now, mainly to maximize efficiency for road trips.

I did some experimenting last night. I used a pretty flat stretch of road with two small bridges at each end to use as start/end points. There was plenty of room to get my speed set coming from either direction. I tested each change in both directions and averaged the results. I tested four different cruise avcs values: 10, 20, 30 and 40. Timing was kept at 48*, average speed was kept at 62 mph, turning 2760 rpms in 6th with the JDM 6MT. I'm running E85 blended at 70% ethanol. My AFR at light cruise loads is 15.6 (gas scale).

10* showed the highest average IDC and lowest average mpg, about 17.7.

20* & 30* were pretty similar. 20 had a lower IDC but 30 showed a higher mpg, around 18.3

40* had a lower IDC than 10* but a lower mpg, around 17.5

I couldn't see any noticeable different in EGTs. They stayed at 1250* for all the tests.

My mpg values assumes that the romraider definition for fuel consumption is correct and that I have fairly accurately created my own formula to account for running E85.

I'm going to work a little more between 20* and 30* to see if I can find the lowest IDC and best mpg and then I will start working on timing at whatever avcs value seems best.

Last edited by WRXt4cy; 02-13-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:46 PM   #5671
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Quite observent......

I am playing around with using AVCS to alter how the car engine brakes or how to limit engine braking all together so I can get better cruising-coasting transition. It makes the car much easier to drive smoothly around town rather than having to be on then off the throttle.

There is plenty of resolution and the ECU will extrapolate far smoother than I have the patience to calculate and develop my own curve. You also move across the MAP range rather quickly so you end up jumping up to ~12-13 PSIa basically any time you are on throttle so the transition from one AVCS setting to another is determined by the response of the AVCS system, fast at high RPM and slower at low due to oil pressure differences.




Also, you posted your mileage data but you did not put any standard deviations. Without knowing how significant the differences in the results are between each test you cant really judge if you are measuring a true phenomena or just observing the variance in the data. If the averages all fall within the standard deviations then your test shows they are statistically the same result. Your standard deviation is going to have to be well below 0.5 MPG for your data to mean anything and I just don't think it will be.

Don't make me go all ANOVA on your ass!

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 02-13-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:03 PM   #5672
WRXt4cy
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Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Quite observent......

I am playing around with using AVCS to alter how the car engine brakes or how to limit engine braking all together so I can get better cruising-coasting transition.

There is plenty of resolution and the ECU will extrapolate far smoother than I have the patience to calculate and develop my own curve.
Ahh, now that's interesting. I didn't put much thought in that aspect of it.

I didn't mean to imply that you need more resolution. I'm just use to seeing more of a balance. To be honest, there is probably more benefit to having more vacuum/low load columns of AVCS than for boost/higher loads.

What have you found so far with the engine braking? I would think high AVCS would reduce engine braking.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:18 PM   #5673
WRXt4cy
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Question for you guys:

What is the known/verified compatibility between version 8 and version 9 (maybe v7 too?) roms and ECUs?

For example, I have a version 8 ECU with ROM ID A4TE002B (03 JDM STi). Can I flash a map based on ROM ID A4TJ121S (05 JDM STi S204) to my ECU or am I likely to brick it doing this?

According to ECUFlash, they share the same memory model and flash method.

My primary interest in doing this would be to avoid the 300 g/s MAF limit I have with the current rom without the need to do the scaling hack. (I know, I know.. speed density but in case MAF based tuning is desired I'm still wanting to know).

I've Google'd around and searched this thread and didn't have luck finding any info on this subject.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:29 PM   #5674
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I know, I know.. speed density

stop ****ing around and carberry this.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:33 PM   #5675
WRXt4cy
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stop ****ing around and carberry this.
I know, I'm ready to switch. I just need to find some time to dig out the manifold IAT sensor and find out what size the threads are so I can get a replacement.

My wife DD's the Spec C currently so down time on my fiddling with it has to limited or I don't hear the end of it.
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