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Old 04-06-2013, 09:00 PM   #6251
WhiteBgeye02
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true but in turn your exh gases are cooler since your running more fuel for a cooler burn. plus more timing means more heat into the head rather than the exh. retarding the timing would help with spool. heat is energy which is were the scavenging of wasted power makes a turbo useful!
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:46 PM   #6252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
true but in turn your exh gases are cooler since your running more fuel for a cooler burn. plus more timing means more heat into the head rather than the exh. retarding the timing would help with spool. heat is energy which is were the scavenging of wasted power makes a turbo useful!

You are confusing the main driving force of the turbocharger catchy as it is. The turbo could care less about temperature, all that matters is the Delta pressure before and after the turbine. Temperature is the driver for the pressure in the header but it is not the whole story. With a constant volume system increasing temperature increases pressure, giving you gains in spool. However when you change the chemical system the pressure can be the same or higher at a much lower temperature. The cooler burn of ethanol is not just because you are running more through the motor, it is cooler mainly because the adaiabatic flame temperature is lower.

I remember when the WRX first came over here and there was a split in how to tune them. Traditional tuning logic (much of it carried over from DSMs) said drop timing to help spool the car up like what you are saying. What was found with the EJ motors and their shorter stroke any significant timing drop to try and drive up EGTs caused a pretty bad loss in torque due to the low cylinder pressures. Through trial and error it was found you could make more torque and get a much smoother power band through running higher timing during spoolup. Remembering this stuff makes me feel old............

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 04-06-2013 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:08 AM   #6253
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Good stuff, Luke.

For a while, I felt that ideas about timing in EJ207 were not ready for mainstream yet.
At this point, we're far enough to where we can say it like it is, with a disclaimer:

Disclaimer:
You're still responsible with what happens to your own engine, can't blame us.
Don't think you're a master of obtaining an equivalent to USDM pump 93 AKI, by blending fuels and then not tune the car and run it like it was on USDM Pump 93.
Log your car and verify your conclusions and our conclusions.

The following applies to a stock JDM EJ207. Stock means with stock turbo and close to stock exhaust, stock everything else.

An Ej207 can run without significant knock on USDM pump 93 AKI, on factory JDM tune.

Like Luke said, JDM fuel is not something miraculous, it's only fuel, just like we have.
They do have "race fuel", but so do we:
At CAM2 pumps, in US you can buy 100 octane (AKI) unleaded race fuel at $10/gal.
Cam2 also sells 110 leaded race fuel (don't use that in our engines).

The JDM Spec C owner's manual does not call for race fuel and even mentions (exactly like the USDM Sti owner's manual), that in the event that Premium fuel is not available, the car can run temporarily and with reduced performance on regular fuel.

But again, this is for a stock Spec C. Modded, things change, just like for a USDM Sti.

Where this is going is that indeed, the EJ207 can run timing, much more so than an EJ255/257.

And there were two directions in tuning, boost based and timing based. With the 207 it's worth exploring during tuning keeping a good (even close to stock) amount of timing, while monitoring for knock, untill the knock has been ruled out.

Under my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong), a rule of thumb for a car owner that desn't do tuning, is to look at the dyno sheet.
If the amount of torque (in ftlb) is equal to the amount of power (in HP), then you have (for an EJ207) a tune that is based on a moderate amount of timing, for this engine.
If you have a smaller value in torque, than power, you probably have a timing-safe tune
If you have more torque than power (on an EJ207), you probably are running a good amount of timing.

Last edited by Vlad; 04-07-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:37 AM   #6254
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okay fair enough boys i guess my thinking was there but not in the right direction. taking a fluid dynamics class right now so should help with putting it all together. im basically basing all i know off last semester thermodynamics class.

idk if WI has great 93 but i ran my car on the stock tune for 2 days logged all of it and saw ZERO knock events. i tuned it 2 days later and actually added timing in many areas of the tune. i think the notion that you cant run a jdm ecu tuned ej207 w/o a tune comes from all the ppl who deal with 91 octane fuel.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:58 PM   #6255
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Here's one for the 207 veterans: the AVCS banjo bolt oil screen filters have been covered and I think the general opinion is to remove them when you do an engine swap. I discovered there is also a screen filter in the banjo connecting to the turbo supply line. If this filter has enough debris in it could this be a contributing factor in my turbo bearing failure last Barber trackday? Oil starvation in a high rpm track situation with a plain bearing turbo sounds like my demise. Opinions?
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:08 PM   #6256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
okay fair enough boys i guess my thinking was there but not in the right direction. taking a fluid dynamics class right now so should help with putting it all together. im basically basing all i know off last semester thermodynamics class.

idk if WI has great 93 but i ran my car on the stock tune for 2 days logged all of it and saw ZERO knock events. i tuned it 2 days later and actually added timing in many areas of the tune. i think the notion that you cant run a jdm ecu tuned ej207 w/o a tune comes from all the ppl who deal with 91 octane fuel.
On the stock rom my car pulled 6 degrees from 6-7k. Probably time of year has a play in it as well with the gas companies changing up their blends for winter.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:54 PM   #6257
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Originally Posted by momotaro19 View Post
Here's one for the 207 veterans: the AVCS banjo bolt oil screen filters have been covered and I think the general opinion is to remove them when you do an engine swap. I discovered there is also a screen filter in the banjo connecting to the turbo supply line. If this filter has enough debris in it could this be a contributing factor in my turbo bearing failure last Barber trackday? Oil starvation in a high rpm track situation with a plain bearing turbo sounds like my demise. Opinions?
seen it happen recently. guy got a new shortlblock. they didnt flush the system right and debriss filled both filters which feed turbo and avcs. he got a code for overadv valve timing which means its getting no oil. 5 miles later hhe heard a rattle which turned out being his turbine/compressor hitting the housings in his brand new vf39. subaru covered it by giving him a new one but the filters were clogged right up! the tiny hole in the banjo bolt in the top of the turbo feed is pretty small as well on the 04 sti. not sure if the jdm ones have larger holes. the hole in it for my td04 was about twice as large.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:26 PM   #6258
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Originally Posted by APS04silverwrx View Post
gc8 2.2 liter with sti heads and different pistons/rods is my plan. good torque rev to 8500- 9000 grand etc!!! the motor that is in the legacy like 98 or whatever bet with much better heads and turbo etc

You do this... because you are stupid.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:02 PM   #6259
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I searched but couldnt find the pn for a v7 set of rings. Anyone?
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:54 PM   #6260
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So my motor is in, started and drove it out of the garage to free my lift up until tonight. I didn't have time to diagnose anything, but this is my issue:

Starts up, idles around 2k for fifteen seconds, kicks into limp mode and runs like garbage obviously. Version 7 conversion, plugged into USDM ECU at the moment. Kicked the obvious TGV codes. I ran out of coolant so it's quite low.

First things first, filling the rest of the coolant tonight. Then I'm going to plug the JDM ECU in. Then I'm going to swap over idle control valves to see if it fixes the issue. After that, I'll get deeper into things and see what's causing the issue.

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Old 04-08-2013, 02:57 PM   #6261
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u will need a new gasket if you take off the iacv. the orings are impossible to get back in the small slots from all the heat cycles they go thru. they are 9 dollars from subaru dealership
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:01 PM   #6262
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Originally Posted by 96SubyImpreza View Post
So my motor is in, started and drove it out of the garage to free my lift up until tonight. I didn't have time to diagnose anything, but this is my issue:

Starts up, idles around 2k for fifteen seconds, kicks into limp mode and runs like garbage obviously. Version 7 conversion, plugged into USDM ECU at the moment. Kicked the obvious TGV codes. I ran out of coolant so it's quite low.

First things first, filling the rest of the coolant tonight. Then I'm going to plug the JDM ECU in. Then I'm going to swap over idle control valves to see if it fixes the issue. After that, I'll get deeper into things and see what's causing the issue.
God that looks good
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:04 PM   #6263
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
u will need a new gasket if you take off the iacv. the orings are impossible to get back in the small slots from all the heat cycles they go thru. they are 9 dollars from subaru dealership
Already stocked up!! I work for subaru :3 hahaha

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God that looks good
Thanks man! For most people the Chargespeed kit is ugly and over the top. Never cared about that much, it's such a great car. And currently runs 275's, soon to go bigger.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:18 PM   #6264
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I just got my 2nd v9 jdm engine running yesterday. For some odd reason my throttle cable wasn't reaching, I had it extended as far as it would go but at the point the throttle body was almost 1/4 way open. I took it for a test ride a few minutes ago running good just smells pretty bad, gasoline wise.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:42 PM   #6265
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I searched but couldnt find the pn for a v7 set of rings. Anyone?
same as the 205 rings in standard bore, .25 and .50 oversized
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:03 PM   #6266
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All of guys running a stock wrx 5spd(as I am going to.....for now) with a V8, when are you seeing full boost? I would imagine it has a little more lag considering the wider gearing.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:06 PM   #6267
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I'm running a stock 5 speed, but I just got my engine in a few days ago, just took a test run today.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:22 PM   #6268
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Longer gears give you more load so you get more boost at lower RPM.

Just think, you make boost at a lower RPM in 4th gear compared to 2nd.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianDelphiki View Post
All of guys running a stock wrx 5spd(as I am going to.....for now) with a V8, when are you seeing full boost? I would imagine it has a little more lag considering the wider gearing.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:24 PM   #6269
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Update: fixed, runs like a top. Swapped idle control valve, tossed in the v7 ecu, topped coolant off. Good to go. Now to get my front end together and run some avcs wires.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:39 PM   #6270
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Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Longer gears give you more load so you get more boost at lower RPM.

Just think, you make boost at a lower RPM in 4th gear compared to 2nd.
So with wider gearing, what's the downside? I understand what your saying my crappy five speed, is like a six speeds lag at higher gears/low rpms/high load. The logic I applied was longer gearing = lag increased but time hitting full boost also increases.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:54 PM   #6271
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wrong^ longer gears load the engine higher so the exh gas volume increases compared to the rise in rpm when in a shorter gear. this means the turbo can spool faster with longer gears. basically you will spool faster in 3rd rather than 2nd in the same transmission. most ppl w/ vf37 turbos on 5mt trans will see 20psi by 3200rpms w/o cats in 3rd any slower than that and there is potential low end torque left on the table. in 4th gear it should be at 3000 or slightly less. also realize that this fast spool comes form having a three port or mbc setup, or both. also dont think going into 4th gear at 2k rpm is great for the engine because its not. loading an engine up for spooling may be great but the lower end hates it. the higher the load the more wear and tear the engine takes.

gears are all about utilizing the power the engine can output w/o tearing the engines bearings apart. kinda like when your automatic car with cruise control downshifts when it goes up a substantial hill or when pulling something. it doesnt have enough power at that low rpm and high gear so it downshifts to a calculated gear prob 1 or 2 gears down and thus the engine is at a higher rpm. at the higher rpm it makes more hp and torque. this higher output makes it so the car can stay at speed as well as haul the load with ease.

hope this explanation helps
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:02 PM   #6272
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i guess to answer your downside to the 5mt compared to a closer geared 6mt is acceleration. with the given same power a 6mt will ussually do better in autox since its a corner to corner type of racing so close gears to get that car up and going fast is the goal. on the flip side a 5mt will be faster in a drag since once you get into 3rd gear the 5mt w/ these engines take you over 100mph. i think like 105ish but dont quote me. on a 04-06 wrx trans you need to take 4th gear to the top almost to get the same speed so it requires more shifting. also the longer you can load the engine inside the power curve so 4k plus rpms the better you are off. my friend has a 07 sti w/ the longer 4th gear. we did many side by side highway pulls. his car is at 20psi, ej257 and ewg which helps a ton on the top. mine is ej207 ppg 5mt and 22psi. even with less displacment i pull on him every time since i can stay in a gear longer. i am switching to a 07 6mt as well so we can race again and see how it turns out. he is prob making a bit more power but his car weights more so we will see. should be a dead nuts race with the same trans. the quicker shifter will pull.

6mt=autox trans 5mt=drag trans. ppg 4 speed dogbox in 6mt trans is the best drag trans for a subaru!
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:19 AM   #6273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
wrong^ longer gears load the engine higher so the exh gas volume increases compared to the rise in rpm when in a shorter gear. this means the turbo can spool faster with longer gears. basically you will spool faster in 3rd rather than 2nd in the same transmission. most ppl w/ vf37 turbos on 5mt trans will see 20psi by 3200rpms w/o cats in 3rd any slower than that and there is potential low end torque left on the table. in 4th gear it should be at 3000 or slightly less. also realize that this fast spool comes form having a three port or mbc setup, or both. also dont think going into 4th gear at 2k rpm is great for the engine because its not. loading an engine up for spooling may be great but the lower end hates it. the higher the load the more wear and tear the engine takes.

gears are all about utilizing the power the engine can output w/o tearing the engines bearings apart. kinda like when your automatic car with cruise control downshifts when it goes up a substantial hill or when pulling something. it doesnt have enough power at that low rpm and high gear so it downshifts to a calculated gear prob 1 or 2 gears down and thus the engine is at a higher rpm. at the higher rpm it makes more hp and torque. this higher output makes it so the car can stay at speed as well as haul the load with ease.

hope this explanation helps
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
i guess to answer your downside to the 5mt compared to a closer geared 6mt is acceleration. with the given same power a 6mt will ussually do better in autox since its a corner to corner type of racing so close gears to get that car up and going fast is the goal. on the flip side a 5mt will be faster in a drag since once you get into 3rd gear the 5mt w/ these engines take you over 100mph. i think like 105ish but dont quote me. on a 04-06 wrx trans you need to take 4th gear to the top almost to get the same speed so it requires more shifting. also the longer you can load the engine inside the power curve so 4k plus rpms the better you are off. my friend has a 07 sti w/ the longer 4th gear. we did many side by side highway pulls. his car is at 20psi, ej257 and ewg which helps a ton on the top. mine is ej207 ppg 5mt and 22psi. even with less displacment i pull on him every time since i can stay in a gear longer. i am switching to a 07 6mt as well so we can race again and see how it turns out. he is prob making a bit more power but his car weights more so we will see. should be a dead nuts race with the same trans. the quicker shifter will pull.

6mt=autox trans 5mt=drag trans. ppg 4 speed dogbox in 6mt trans is the best drag trans for a subaru!
Thanks for the insight. I had heard numerous times that a 5mt with this motor is 'laggy' but I guess the people saying that were autoX'ers. Im not looking to drag, just spirited driving and seeing how long I can make this tranny last with the motor pushing around 300ft/lbs. And I know how that high load/low rpms is a killer. Not first hand, but Ive my research.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:05 AM   #6274
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
i guess to answer your downside to the 5mt compared to a closer geared 6mt is acceleration. with the given same power a 6mt will ussually do better in autox since its a corner to corner type of racing so close gears to get that car up and going fast is the goal. on the flip side a 5mt will be faster in a drag since once you get into 3rd gear the 5mt w/ these engines take you over 100mph. i think like 105ish but dont quote me. on a 04-06 wrx trans you need to take 4th gear to the top almost to get the same speed so it requires more shifting. also the longer you can load the engine inside the power curve so 4k plus rpms the better you are off. my friend has a 07 sti w/ the longer 4th gear. we did many side by side highway pulls. his car is at 20psi, ej257 and ewg which helps a ton on the top. mine is ej207 ppg 5mt and 22psi. even with less displacment i pull on him every time since i can stay in a gear longer. i am switching to a 07 6mt as well so we can race again and see how it turns out. he is prob making a bit more power but his car weights more so we will see. should be a dead nuts race with the same trans. the quicker shifter will pull.

6mt=autox trans 5mt=drag trans. ppg 4 speed dogbox in 6mt trans is the best drag trans for a subaru!
Just curious on this. Aren't you also staying in a gear longer though also due to the higher rev of an 207 rather than lower rev on a 257?
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:07 AM   #6275
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I have the stock BA code 5 speed on my 02 bugeye, I would have to drive a swapped ej207 car with a 6 speed to see what feels better. The 5 speed works fine for me, I've noticed that there is no need to rev the engine to 8,000 rpm, I like shifting at 7,000 rpm. Seems like there is nothing to gain by ringing it out higher in the rev range. I just have the stock twin scroll with what most would consider to be a stage 2 setup putting down 300 foot pounds of torque by 3700 rpm. I do fear the 5 speed won't last, I do my best to be civilized to it, minimize shift shock and no clutch dropping. I'm using subaru s gear oil and checking the oil level on a regular basis. So far so good, we shall see.
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