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Old 09-18-2006, 04:21 PM   #1
mrwrx2002
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Default Coolingmist not working during tune

Hey guys.

I was going to throw out the problem I had and hopefully someone can tell me where it went wrong.

I installed my coolingmist stage II kit and to test flow i hooked the hose up to my windshield washer lines and the kit would spray onto the windshield at the correct psi. Before my tune, I hooked the nozzle up and drove around, the level dropped as should be expected.

We first did an all turbo tune ... worked out fine, then came the meth.

There was no hp difference or fuel richening noticed on the screen. We took off the intercooler piping and pressurized a vacuum line which sprayed the methanol into the throttle body. Everything worked but the spray seemed to start at the wrong pressure, and the start psi had to be lowered for it to work.

The car is an EJ205 with a vf34 and every other bolt on and the kit has an m6 nozzle. Is it not spraying enough to make a difference? Any help is appreciated.

- Mike

CN : during a tune spraying meth made no difference in the engine, EJ205, vf34, m6 nozzle. Why was there no difference?
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:29 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by mrwrx2002 View Post
Hey guys.

I was going to throw out the problem I had and hopefully someone can tell me where it went wrong.

I installed my coolingmist stage II kit and to test flow i hooked the hose up to my windshield washer lines and the kit would spray onto the windshield at the correct psi. Before my tune, I hooked the nozzle up and drove around, the level dropped as should be expected.

We first did an all turbo tune ... worked out fine, then came the meth.

There was no hp difference or fuel richening noticed on the screen. We took off the intercooler piping and pressurized a vacuum line which sprayed the methanol into the throttle body. Everything worked but the spray seemed to start at the wrong pressure, and the start psi had to be lowered for it to work.

The car is an EJ205 with a vf34 and every other bolt on and the kit has an m6 nozzle. Is it not spraying enough to make a difference? Any help is appreciated.

- Mike

CN : during a tune spraying meth made no difference in the engine, EJ205, vf34, m6 nozzle. Why was there no difference?
What is your MIN, TUNE and MAX setting set at?
Are you running only off boost or off boost and Voltage (Maf/Tps) ?

Also, if you have purchased the kit in the last month or so from coolingmist you would have received 2 nozzles. If your not getting enough from the m6, use the large one (approx 16 gph)


What version flash do you have? The verion 2 controller flash lights up a solid green light when its injecting. Most kits sold over the last month have the Version 2 flash. Version 3 flash will be out next week.

Please answer those questions as they are key to answering your questions.
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Old 09-18-2006, 05:05 PM   #3
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As far as min, and max ... we tried different things. For the first tune the min was set around 14 max at 18 but no difference was seen. Then at that point we took the intercooler off to see if it was working. Then set it really low to min 1 max 5 and still no difference seen. tune was set at 10 i believe.

I am running just off of boost. it is tapped off the BOV line.

I purchased the kit in January so I was given just the one nozzle.

As for the flash, i believe i have v2 since it lights solid when injecting.
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Old 09-18-2006, 05:12 PM   #4
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As far as min, and max ... we tried different things. For the first tune the min was set around 14 max at 18 but no difference was seen. Then at that point we took the intercooler off to see if it was working. Then set it really low to min 1 max 5 and still no difference seen. tune was set at 10 i believe.

I am running just off of boost. it is tapped off the BOV line.

I purchased the kit in January so I was given just the one nozzle.

As for the flash, i believe i have v2 since it lights solid when injecting.
Its not possible to have purchased the kit in January and have the new flash. We did pre-orders in december and january, the actual product was not instock until April. Further, the new flash has only been around for the last 2 months. I'm not refering to the clog nozzle detector, im referring to the actual controller box itself. It blinks when you turn the power on, but the new version goes solid when its injecting. The older version just blinks no matter what (Unless it fails the diagnostic check).

Getting back to the point, it sounds to me that the 6 GPH is not enough flow for you. If you have the controller on setting 10, that gives you 100% of the duty cycle at max boost. Thats my guess based on what I am seeing.
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Old 09-18-2006, 05:56 PM   #5
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.....Getting back to the point, it sounds to me that the 6 GPH is not enough flow for you. If you have the controller on setting 10, that gives you 100% of the duty cycle at max boost. Thats my guess based on what I am seeing.....
So you're saying a 6gph nozzle showing know difference on a tune with a vf34 is normal? Imo it is not normal, and the problem probably has nothing to do with the nozzle. The a/f ratio didn't change at all with injection on and a 50/50 mix? Where are the tank and pump mounted? Is the controller hooked upto the battery, or right off an ignition wire? I mean, it's nice to hook up some pressure to the controller and make the system pump some injection, but it's different to actually know it's injecting when the car is running(which we do not)...... There should be a noticeable change in a/f ratio(maybe .5 midrange, maybe more?) while running 50/50, even with that tiny nozzle(which imo is not so tiny especially for your setup).

peace
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:08 PM   #6
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CMTech I guess I have the older flash, not sure if it is steady upon injection but it definitely blinks when the ignition is turned on.

either way the 6gph should show a change if it is spraying... even if it is minute .. I may have to look into getting a new flash? and a nozzle?

Hippy

no change at all which i found odd as did the tuner.
5050 meth, even water shouldve made a difference.
tank is the windshield washer tank, pump is at a lower level than the tank in the fenderwell.
controller is hooked up to the ignition


is there a better vacuum line to read the pressure off of
i have it on the bov line
fuel pressure line?
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:12 PM   #7
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Water might not(I'm not really sure) make a diff in a/f ratio, but you should definately notice a drop in egt's, be able to raise the boost, advance the timing, and/or lean out the a/f ratio, even with a 3gph nozzle. Many people on here have talked about how their systems haven't worked, and it seems to relate to where their tanks and pumps are mounted. Your pump seems to be in a good place....... If I was you, I'd try using a different tank location(outside the engine bay), cause that might just be the problem(I'd bet on this being the problem). The problem could also be with your tuner.

I would also hook the controller upto a relay that's turned on by the ignition, not hooked directly upto an ignition wire. I know it probably makes no difference(especially to the problem at hand), but it's good practice(imo). I mean, you know this isn't the prob cause the fuse hooked upto the ignition wire hasn't popped yet, but it might the next time you hook something upto it.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 09-18-2006 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:23 PM   #8
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CMTech I guess I have the older flash, not sure if it is steady upon injection but it definitely blinks when the ignition is turned on.

either way the 6gph should show a change if it is spraying... even if it is minute .. I may have to look into getting a new flash? and a nozzle?

Hippy

no change at all which i found odd as did the tuner.
5050 meth, even water shouldve made a difference.
tank is the windshield washer tank, pump is at a lower level than the tank in the fenderwell.
controller is hooked up to the ignition


is there a better vacuum line to read the pressure off of
i have it on the bov line
fuel pressure line?
Hi, I wasn't inferring you NEED to get a new flash. Flashing the controller is something we can do (there is a fee for the flashing and new calibration) but I dont recommend it unless you need to. Performance wise it makes NO difference. Just a difference in the light and the ability to lock the settings on the controller with the software. Besides, our Version 3 flash is going into production and will be here in a week. This has functionality for future devices we are developing for the controller.

Getting back to your question. You said
Quote:
the level dropped as should be expected.
Based on that statement you are saying its injecting and you are getting no results. In that case I suggested to get a larger nozzle. A nice test is to do the following:

remove the nozzle from piping, remove any methanol from the tank. turn the key to the car to the ON position (dont run the engine). Ground the pump to the chasis. (thats the black wire on the pump). Look at the spray pattern. Make sure its spraying nice. Not often, but on a rare occasion we have seen defective nozzles. We have seen some that they did not drill the pattern in the pill and it causes no atomization, etc.

If you do this test and it sprays nice, I will tell you again to get a larger nozzle. If it doesn't spray right your nozzle is FUBAR.

Thanks!

Also, I would check to make sure your boost source is good. The system will inject based on when it reads the boost. If its a bad location and the signal is not strong it can cause issues. If I have compeltely missed the point please let me know and I'll try to help further.

Last edited by CMTech; 09-18-2006 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:49 PM   #9
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At 20psi, he should be able to run 16% or more injection to petrol everywhere in the rpm range. No reason he shouldn't be able to see results with that. Imo the problem probably has nothing to do with the size of the nozzle, unless it's too big. Also, why does it seem like you're always recommending larger nozzles to people with mild setups when your magical controller is supposed to be able to compensate for more power?

hippy
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:02 PM   #10
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At 20psi, he should be able to run 16% or more injection to petrol everywhere in the rpm range. No reason he shouldn't be able to see results with that. Imo the problem probably has nothing to do with the size of the nozzle, unless it's too big. Also, why does it seem like you're always recommending larger nozzles to people with mild setups when your magical controller is supposed to be able to compensate for more power?

hippy
Hippy,

I have decided to let you do our support for us. It appears you know more than us.

mrwrx2002, I would recommend that you call hippy with any questions you have, Furthermore, PM him. I dont doubt for a second he is more qualified to provide our support.

In the event that you prefer our support please call us or email us and we will help you.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:15 PM   #11
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Thank you both for your help. If you see this thread pop to the top of the list again I'd appreciate the help.

I don't mean to ask a question and start a pissing match between the two of you.

Coolingmist makes a great product... I'm just trying to figure out why my configuration isn't working properly. Maybe CM's suggestion of a larger nozzle IS the solution to the problem, maybe it isn't but let me be the deciding factor in the effectiveness of that solution.

You both are very knowledgeable about methanol injection, and I hope I can use each of you as a resource in the future.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:18 PM   #12
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Sorry, everything I say is wrong, and everything coolingmist says is right. Furthermore, I think you should get one of their new 16gph nozzles that sprays into the incoming air because the one you have is neither big enough, nore advanced enough in technology to work correctly. You could try using cooler liquid(having a tank outside the engine compartment) if that doesn't work, but maybe it will because more liquid will keep the pump cooler for longer if it's cooler then the pump. I guess using a bigger nozzle really can solve everything. I'm being sarcastic if ya couldn't tell.

For what it's worth, I have tuned my wrx with a vf34 and injection. For some people, picking nozzle size doesn't depend on mods, but on a gut feeling that they will make another $15 by advising someone to get it. I don't think the nozzle size is the problem, even though one that flows more then 6gph might help the problem as stated above. Good luck either way.

On another note, people post on here to get more then one opinion. If someone wanted coolingmists advice, they would be wise to call coolingmist. It's kinda amusing that cooling decides when he's gonna try and bs the answers to questions I bring up, and how other times he justs rejects them cause he knows he can't bs around the answer that he's wrong. Course he is the only one qualified to answer questions about his systems, or that's what he said in another thread. Hey cooling, how many cars have you tuned with a 6gph nozzle? How about with the 16? Have you ever tuned a car, let alone a wrx? What makes you think that you know what you're talking about? Cause you make injection systems after copying and changing other peoples ideas, and you can tell what size nozzles people use by what you sell? How many size nozzles do you normally sell? Why do you think he should use a bigger nozzle? Do you not think that the tank being in the engine compartment could be the problem? What am I missing?

hippy

Last edited by hippy; 09-18-2006 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:20 PM   #13
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Thank you both for your help. If you see this thread pop to the top of the list again I'd appreciate the help.

I don't mean to ask a question and start a pissing match between the two of you.

Coolingmist makes a great product... I'm just trying to figure out why my configuration isn't working properly. Maybe CM's suggestion of a larger nozzle IS the solution to the problem, maybe it isn't but let me be the deciding factor in the effectiveness of that solution.

You both are very knowledgeable about methanol injection, and I hope I can use each of you as a resource in the future.

Call us or email us for further help. Unfortunately I have better things to do at 9:15 PM than argue with hippy. All I care about is that our customers get the support they need. I cant do that effectively when every single thread we try to help we get criticized by the same player. Thanks very much for your support. You have our email and phone (dont PM please). When you call ask for John. He is our on-site tuner. Explain your situation to him and see what his answer is.



Thanks.

Last edited by CMTech; 09-18-2006 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 09-20-2006, 03:55 PM   #14
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I don't mean to ask a question and start a pissing match between the two of you.
unfortunately that kind of comes with the territory in this forum... hippy in every topic replying to every comment by anyone, and fighting every word that comes out of Coolingmist's mouth.

(I try to listen to the vendors)
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Old 09-20-2006, 04:12 PM   #15
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i have the same problem with my smc kit. it barely sprays, and the problem might be the size of the nozzle. we'll see when i get a chance to put the bigger nozzle on my car.
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Old 09-20-2006, 05:15 PM   #16
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b4437 please do let me know when you do add a larger nozzle ... that might help me in seeing what goes on

as for my update ... I turned the system on last night and the clog nozzle detector shows that its spraying when it is supposed to ... but why the tune fruited no hp I still dont know.

Thanks guys
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Old 09-22-2006, 12:13 AM   #17
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going with M10 nozzle on my new setup. will post results
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Old 09-22-2006, 06:08 AM   #18
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I'll try to say this again without bashing anyone. Here's a link to a thread.... Well respected tuner, bigger setup then the person who started this thread, using a 5gph nozzle(smaller then 6gph nozzle) and seeing what he seems to think are good results. A bunch of other people on here who also tune their cars(like me) make decisions based on info they've collected, and from what I've seen, none of them use a 16gph nozzle. Truth be told, I've never heard of anyone who tuned their own car with a 16gph nozzle. People(tuners) use 5gph nozzles and run 350whp. This would mean that these people(tuners) might use a 10gph nozzle on a 700whp setup, and a 16gph nozzle on a 1100whp setup. Not many wrx's run 1100whp, and maybe that's why no one who I've heard of who tunes their own wrx uses a nozzle anywhere near that big.

Point-> If you're not seeing results with a 6gph nozzle on your car with a vf34, chances are the problem is not that the nozzle is too small. Course this is just my opinion, and I'm no expert.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 09-22-2006 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 09-22-2006, 06:35 PM   #19
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I agree with you hippy ... I was just going to see how it would work for him.

I am looking into other options but for now I am running it and seeing the level drop as I drive. I'm just gonna have to do a lil trial and error

thanks again
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:21 PM   #20
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well,i got the m10 installed and it's now working fine. it's weird,the m10 hole looks smaller than the previous one i got.
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Old 09-22-2006, 07:55 PM   #21
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Coolingmists statement about the nozzle being defective might be valid, but I wouldn't bet on it. You could test the flow of the nozzle to make sure. Just take the nozzle out and point it into a measuring cup, ground the pump with the ignition on, and see how much it flows in 15 or 30 seconds. My bet is more then you think(compared to what you should be flowing with that nozzle) since 6gph really isn't a lot of flow. If it does flow what it should, the tank location might be the problem. Course that might not be it either. Maybe the injection kit is working fine, and the problem is with your tune? What exactly did your tuner try to change in the tune once the injection was on?

To the post above, what does "working fine" mean? Does it mean you had your car tuned and are making more power everywhere in the rpm range with it then with the 6gph nozzle? Was your car tuned with the 6gph nozzle? For what it's worth, these kits(smc and cooling) came with 1 size nottle for a long time(6gph I think). People didn't seem to think the size of the nozzle was a problem back then(which was maybe 3 months ago and prior). Coolingmist even advertised that people could gain power(like getting a bigger turbo) without needing a bigger nozzle because of their controller.

To benw - Buyer beware. Not that a big nozzle will kill your car(course it could), but if you knew what was going on(no offense) instead of relying on the word of a vendor, you might not get a huge nozzle that you will never need, and possibly never use fully.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 09-22-2006 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 09-22-2006, 09:19 PM   #22
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hey hippy get a life.i am sorry but every time some one posts about a coolingmist kit you have to try to speak for them.did you design their kit?are you affiliated with them? if not maybe you should stay out of their business.i own a coolingmist kit and i have spoke with them on the phone they know what they are doing as they have put together a excellent kit that works well.maybe you should sell your diy kit so people can call you and ask for you advice. i really do not care what you reply as i will not come back to this post so flame on.
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Old 09-23-2006, 05:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy View Post
To benw - Buyer beware. Not that a big nozzle will kill your car(course it could), but if you knew what was going on(no offense) instead of relying on the word of a vendor, you might not get a huge nozzle that you will never need, and possibly never use fully.

peace
I went with m10 based off David from Coolingmist's recommendation also a Forester owner with my same combo used it with great success on 91 octane which I will also be using. I'm pretty sure David wouldn't recommend a nozzle that would "kill my car." BTW mine is a just a single stage 150psi kit with a checkvalve. No solenoid, no controller.

can we get a user-toggleable hippy filter in here?
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Old 09-23-2006, 02:25 PM   #24
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Coolingmists statement about the nozzle being defective might be valid, but I wouldn't bet on it. You could test the flow of the nozzle to make sure. Just take the nozzle out and point it into a measuring cup, ground the pump with the ignition on, and see how much it flows in 15 or 30 seconds. My bet is more then you think(compared to what you should be flowing with that nozzle) since 6gph really isn't a lot of flow. If it does flow what it should, the tank location might be the problem. Course that might not be it either. Maybe the injection kit is working fine, and the problem is with your tune? What exactly did your tuner try to change in the tune once the injection was on?

To the post above, what does "working fine" mean? Does it mean you had your car tuned and are making more power everywhere in the rpm range with it then with the 6gph nozzle? Was your car tuned with the 6gph nozzle? For what it's worth, these kits(smc and cooling) came with 1 size nottle for a long time(6gph I think). People didn't seem to think the size of the nozzle was a problem back then(which was maybe 3 months ago and prior). Coolingmist even advertised that people could gain power(like getting a bigger turbo) without needing a bigger nozzle because of their controller.

To benw - Buyer beware. Not that a big nozzle will kill your car(course it could), but if you knew what was going on(no offense) instead of relying on the word of a vendor, you might not get a huge nozzle that you will never need, and possibly never use fully.

peace
it was hardly spraying witht the old nozzle and the pressure was at 160psi. since,i installed the bigger nozzle it is now spraying with the pressure at less than 100psi. the car is not tuned yet. i can see white smoke coming out of the exhaust when it's spraying. my tuner told me the nozzle was too small for my setup. that's why i didn't make any power on the dyno with the smaller nozzle cause it was hardly spraying. he spent an hour tuning it and the alcohol was still full. we'll see how it goes with the bigger nozzle in a few weeks.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:58 PM   #25
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...my tuner told me the nozzle was too small for my setup. that's why i didn't make any power on the dyno with the smaller nozzle cause it was hardly spraying. he spent an hour tuning it and the alcohol was still full...
No liquid missing from the tank would indicate no flow, not a nozzle that's too small. Let's say you have a 2 gallon tank, and your 6gph nozzle was spraying at the lowest flow it can(3gph as far as I know) for 10 minutes of that hour. Your tank should have been 3/4 full after the runs. If you ran 6gph, it would be half full. If you have a 1 gallon tank, your tank would be half full with the 3gph rate(after running for 10 minutes), and totally empty with a rate of 6gph. The long and short of it(imo) is, if your tuner thinks you need a bigger nozzle because there was no liquid missing from the tank, it might be a better idea to switch tuners then nozzles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benw View Post
I went with m10 based off David from Coolingmist's recommendation..... I'm pretty sure David wouldn't recommend a nozzle that would "kill my car." BTW mine is a just a single stage 150psi kit with a checkvalve....
People with adjustable kits can lower the flow of a 16gph nozzle to 8gph. With your kit, you're stuck at the max flow of an adjustable system(with both systems using the same nozzle). According to my calculations, you will not be able to run less then 22% injection to fuel(with an m10 nozzle while running 20psi of boost), and that's with your fuel injectors running max flow(assuming they're 800cc injectors). At lower then max flow of your fuel system, you will be running a higher percent of injection to fuel. Many tuners would never run 22% injection to fuel, let alone have it be the lowest possible flow for a persons setup. Your setup on the other hand could end up running 50% injection to fuel in lower rpm ranges(like 4000rpm). Imo if a monkey saw a list of all the possible nozzle sizes you could use(not just from coolingmist, but all the m(misting) nozzles), it could probably pick one at random that would be a better size for your setup then the one dave picked. Course dave only sells two sizes of nozzles, so maybe that's why you're ending up with an m10? I do wish you luck in your endevors(seriously), and I'm just trying to help.....

peace

Last edited by hippy; 09-23-2006 at 05:01 PM.
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