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Old 11-08-2001, 05:59 PM   #26
Stanley
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Quote:
CAUSE THE FREAKIN SYNCROS ARE TOAST!!
Were you rev matching when shifting into first and moving?
I already know you're going to say: "I shouldn't have to rev match with a syncromesh transmission." But I am here to tell you that you should do it anyway if you want your first gear syncro to last.

Quote:
wind out first gear to 4K and you are barely into second gear enough to keep from stalling on a hill.
Sorry dude, but that is ridiculous unless you are taking 5+ seconds to get it into second gear and gravity has slowed your car down below 10 miles an hour...

I have 8,500 miles on my car and occasionally will downshift to first from second at 10-15mph when entering a parking lot or going up a hill in traffic. I won't sit here and type that you guys don't have a problem, but I don't and if I did I sure wouldn't expect an upgraded tranny.
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Old 11-08-2001, 06:09 PM   #27
Austin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stanley
Were you rev matching when shifting into first and moving?
I already know you're going to say: "I shouldn't have to rev match with a syncromesh transmission." But I am here to tell you that you should do it anyway if you want your first gear syncro to last.
Rev matching does nothing to help the synchro. You must double clutch to spin the first driven gear and reduce synchro wear.

Rev matching will make for a smoother transition when releasing the clutch, but won't help synchro wear.
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Old 11-09-2001, 12:53 PM   #28
Stanley
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Rev matching does nothing to help the synchro. You must double clutch to spin the first driven gear and reduce synchro wear.
OK, let's see whose transmission lasts longer.

If you are not getting satisfaction from your dealer, take it to an independent mechanic you trust. If he thinks there is a problem, document his opinion and pursue SOA. If he thinks you need some practice shifting into first, take his advice. I can't tell you if you have a problem or not sitting here at my computer, but I can tell you that rev matching for downshifts into first gear is absolutely necessary in a manual transmission.
I was able to do it in my Nissan without using the clutch...no syncro action involved there, eh?

I'm out.
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Old 11-10-2001, 04:43 PM   #29
davesill
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First, add my name to the list of those who can't downshift to first without double clutching. I've got less than 3000 miles on my car, and this just started being a problem in the past week. I haven't complained to the dealer yet.

Quote:
Originally posted by Stanley


If you are not getting satisfaction from your dealer, take it to an independent mechanic you trust. If he thinks there is a problem, document his opinion and pursue SOA. If he thinks you need some practice shifting into first, take his advice. I can't tell you if you have a problem or not sitting here at my computer, but I can tell you that rev matching for downshifts into first gear is absolutely necessary in a manual transmission.
I was able to do it in my Nissan without using the clutch...no syncro action involved there, eh?
Rev matching is unnecessary when downshifting into first, as is double clutching--with properly functioning synchros.

I've got ~300k under my belt on two manual transmission vehicles, and I never had synchro trouble or needed to double clutch to downshift into first.

If you're not having problems, consider yourself lucky, but don't assume it's due to your superior technique.

-Dave
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Old 11-10-2001, 11:06 PM   #30
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First off, I want to say that I think my car is operating as intended - I can shift into first without revmatching, it does take time but it does happen. However, I was driving around today trying to listen for noises in the engine, and was finally able to get a grinding in first gear (not intentionally, mind you)

Instructions:
1.drive in 1st gear ~20mph.
2.Clutch in, pull out of first, but not quite into neutral.
3.try first again, grind gear.

The first couple times I did this, I immediately tried to rev match, which did nothing. Here is what I figured out (I think):

In terms of notches in the gear selection, there is neutral, first gear and a space in the middle. When the syncros have to match speeds, they do thier work when you shift into the middle space. Then speeds are matched and you shift into first.
When you pull out of first, until you've gone all the way into neutral, the syncros don't reengage to keep first gear matched. Pull all the way into neutral try first again, and get syncromesh. Why it happens this way, I don't know. Don't have a transmission available to tear apart ad figure it out.

I suppose my next step should be to try this with second or third gear. If I get the same result, it is design intent, if different, I'll take it to the dealer.

Yes, all manuals are different. I remember driving trucks, and having to listen to the synchros while they spooled up. I just got the chance to drive a BMW 528, and it went into first without effort. I couldn't distinctly feel the synchro the spool was so fast.
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Old 11-11-2001, 06:59 AM   #31
NIN2001
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Default Ureeka!!

I am dropping off my WRX on Monday to get the trany fixed. Just so everybody knows it is not supposed to do what I have been telling you it is. For those of you who have a WRX if you read the manual and go to section 7 page 11 it says that you can and should shift up or down at 15 MPH this came directly from Subaru. This was what I was told by the service manager here in Orlando. So I promptly brought in the car and said "well thats great, cause I cant shift at 5 MPH from 2nd to 1st without it grinding". He test drove the car and sure enough he said "that's not right, when can you leave the car with us for 2 to 3 weeks". YAY! I don't have my car for 2 to 3 weeks

I guess it's good that they finally realized that there is a problem.

So if you are having the same problem described in this post, it's not a Subaru normality it is a defect and if this is common throughout all Subaru's then I think we should all get together and get new trany's.

If you still want to think this is normal then go ahead no skin off my teeth. But realize this whoever told you that is was normal for your transmission to grind going into gear at a reasonable speed that the gear was designed to operate in LIED TO YOU!!!!

Please keep the e-mails comming I am compiling a list and passing it on to Subaru as they come in and they are very happy to recieve them so that this can be documented don't be supprised if you get a recall letter soon.

Nick
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Old 11-11-2001, 03:57 PM   #32
Stallion
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Nick,
You know to add me on the list right? I'll e-mail you with the vin info and stuff. Whoo hoo, maybe I'll get a third tranny

Rick
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Old 11-11-2001, 06:32 PM   #33
Austin
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Default Re: Ureeka!!

Quote:
Originally posted by NIN2001
So if you are having the same problem described in this post, it's not a Subaru normality it is a defect and if this is common throughout all Subaru's then I think we should all get together and get new trany's.Nick
There's a good chance you'll get your tranny repaired under warranty, but if you think SOA is going to dole out new trannsmissions to anyone with a first gear synchro problem, you're chasing a rainbow. IMHO
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Old 11-11-2001, 06:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: Ureeka!!

Quote:
Originally posted by NIN2001
"well thats great, cause I cant shift at 5 MPH from 2nd to 1st without it grinding".
Well, your car grinds going into first, thats a little different than the people who are saying that the car won't go into first above 5mph but it doesn't grind at all when shifting into first under 5mph.
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Old 11-12-2001, 03:00 AM   #35
NIN2001
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Default Re: Re: Ureeka!!

Quote:
Originally posted by SoLo OnE


Well, your car grinds going into first, thats a little different than the people who are saying that the car won't go into first above 5mph but it doesn't grind at all when shifting into first under 5mph.
Actually... the car has trouble going into first at almost any speed within the Subaru recomended guide lines this includes speeds under even 5 MPH. As I said in an earlier post "In your WRX manual the thick one, Section 7 page 11 tells you the proper operating speed of the manual gear box as even pointed out to me by Subaru technical support, and the cars are supposed to shift up or down into first starting at 15 MPH". If anyone is having the problem of not being able to shift into first at all e-mail me about this as well I am sure this is a related issue after all it is still a shifting problem.

Please remember to include the last 8 digits of the VIN and a detailed description.

For those of you not content to actually listen to the drible handed out by the dealers and Subaru tech I and many others thank you.

On another note, not related to the WRX issue anyone who has an impreza that is still under warranty and is experiencing the same problem with the trany as well as other model Subaru's please let me know as well. The information provided to Subaru may fix this for past present and future Subaru owners and make the owning of a Subaru that much better.

Just to make a note I think some of you don't realize I LOVE MY CAR!!! And for those of you who may think I am just some newbie kid that hasn't clue. I am a 30+ year old business owner and car buff I am currently working on http://www.SubaruTuner.com:8080 and http://www.WRXTuner.com:8080

This may be my first Subaru and I may have only had it a short while, but I'm in love and am going to work hard to provide all Die hard Subaru owners with a place to go to exclusively get Subaru parts and accessories.

Thanks again,
Nick

Nick@WRXTuner.com

Last edited by NIN2001; 11-13-2001 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 11-27-2001, 08:54 AM   #36
Brad B.
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I agree with Nick. My WRX has started grinding 1st gear at any speed above zero. I have about 6000 miles on it, and it started about 500 miles ago and has progressively gotten worse. Anyone that thinks "grinding metal" is normal is crazy. I feel sorry for anyone that has had to deal with this their whole life becuause they were so hip to buy Subaru's since they were born.
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Old 11-27-2001, 02:57 PM   #37
NIN2001
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Exclamation It's Fixed!!! and smooth :) with a twist

Ok, I got my baby back after about a week and a half in the shop. Well I will say this, Allen my service tech at Subaru was shocked as was I when not even the slightest bit of metal was found in the tranny and the gears were all in tact!! Apperently and this is all speculation because Subaru won't actually admit this or fix this unless you complain and won't listen to "this is normal" or "All Subaru's do this" Allen my awesome service tech and Bill my awesome service manager who is also an ASE Master Technician both said in dealing with Subaru tech over the phone they were very secretive about the tranny issue. Bill said "I hate all this secrecy just tell us what's wrong then we'll fix it". Once the new gears and syncros came in guess what same part # different part in the box!! Subaru has change the part as was apparent. So now my tranny shifts AWESOME no grinding at all (Yet).

I had to plug the guys at Bill Bryan Subaru they actually went to bat for me and stood up for what was right if you plead your case firmly, sincerely and calmly to your dealer I don't doubt they will do the same for you.

I say yet because I don't know if it will last I hope it does and want it too, I just hope that this fix by Subaru is permanent one and was thought out and engineered correctly.

I would still like everyone with a problem to e-mail me with the last 8 of there VIN # and the problem they are having in detail I am still passing this on to Subaru if you go to your dealer and have the same problem I had in the begining let me know and I will see who I can contact to help.

Also just so everyone understands the Lemon Law, your car needs to break 3 times and be in the shop for at least 2 weeks total before you can Lemon law it. I don't want to, as I have said in the past, and I don't want to have to go through the head ache of trying to get a six speed but would if this continues to be an issue.

Keep the e-mails comming I have compiled about 20 cases so far of the same thing, and counting.

Nick

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Old 11-27-2001, 03:19 PM   #38
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So you're saying the grinding didn't hurt the transmission? Can any of the early model Subie owners confirm or deny this--by which I mean has anyone with this problem run up 150k+ miles on their original transmission?

For all the people who are calling this "normal" for Subarus, do you mean the grinding isn't doing anything bad or that all Subaru owners are expected to rev-match/double clutch everywhere?

If this really is a harmless quirk I might be able to live with it but the grinding sounds like *damage* to me. With my luck this will translate into a complete tranny rebuild at 15 feet past 30k miles. That prospect does put a crimp in my otherwise high pride of ownership.

Kapwi

btw...my car grinds into first gear from a stop maybe 5-10% of the time. And yes, the clutch is in. It doesn't happen often enough to be reliably reproducable but it does happen often enough to be really annoying. Maybe Nick's crusade will get a TSB out so I don't have to keep trying to convince people that it's not all in my head.
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Old 11-27-2001, 03:26 PM   #39
AaronBBrown
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Quote:
Originally posted by PrezzieBaby
WHY !?!? would you downshift into first. Most cars do have a lot of resistance when you try to do that...because you're not supposed to!
I know someone said who cares...and I agree...but I'm still going to answer the "why" question...

I know you're in CA...but I live in Ithaca, NY...The city is built on the side of a hill - a very steep hill. Try coming up said hill and making a left hand turn onto an even steeper hill in second gear. Good luck getting up the hill without lugging your engine to death.

That is why you need to downshift into first. Yes, the Subaru tranny takes some gentle coaxing to moving into first, but it is often necessary.

And, I cannot find it in my owners manual where it says "don't downshift into first." It says that I shouldn't skip gears when downshifting, or downshift at high revs...nothing about first gear being bad.
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Old 11-27-2001, 05:07 PM   #40
Austin
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Quote:
Originally posted by AaronBBrown
And, I cannot find it in my owners manual where it says "don't downshift into first."
Because it doesn't say *anywhere* in the owners manual not to downshift into first. If anyone on this board tells you to "read the owners manual" or "learn your car" ask them what page on the owners manual it says not to downshift into first... shuts 'em up every time.
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Old 11-27-2001, 06:36 PM   #41
Keith99RS
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Angry

***, It gets tiring sometimes seeing the same recurring threads that lead to griping about the WRX trannies. It appears some people complaining have never owned Subaru's before and view the WRX as a $50K sport sedan like a M3 BMW. Guess what? It's not! The built quality and smoothness of this car was never meant to rival the high end sport sedans. There is a reason why the car cost $25K or so. Even still the perfomance for the buck offered by the WRX is great when compared to it's competitors. Fact of the matter is a lot of these complaints would be swept under the rug if this car were a 2002 RS. I noticed that most people reporting problems have WRX's and not RS's. It would be logical to assume horsepower has nothing to do with the down shift problem and if it would be poorly designed syncos one would think a lot more Subaru's would be affected. Also, don't forget that the WRX has been selling in Europe and Japan for years before coming here and with the following they have achieved, Subaru can't be building a piece of junk. As far as getting replacement STI 6 speed trannies get real!!!!!

Just had to vent, this subject and the WRX vs. anything with 4 wheels (or sometimes 2) are really getting annoying and degrade into nothing but insult matches.

Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Old 11-27-2001, 10:09 PM   #42
Austin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keith99RS
***, It gets tiring sometimes seeing the same recurring threads that lead to griping about the WRX trannies.
Then don't read them. If your tranny is good, ****.

Quote:
Originally posted by Keith99RS
I noticed that most people reporting problems have WRX's and not RS's.
*clears throat*

Quote:
Originally posted by Keith99RS
Subaru can't be building a piece of junk.
Where's that 'I believe' button? I want to push it too.
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Old 11-28-2001, 10:22 AM   #43
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At 5k miles, I have yet to grind my tranny. However, I can't get into 1st at anything faster than a full stop unless I double clutch. Should I take it in to fix it? To be honest, it doesn't bother me all that much now that I've gotten used to it. But, I don't want to be stuck with a bum tranny.
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Old 11-28-2001, 10:42 AM   #44
Austin
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Quote:
Originally posted by no_rex_yet
Should I take it in to fix it?
Yes. Why? Because you paid for a warranty on your new fully synchromeshed transmission and it's not operating like a synchromeshed transmission should. Your tranny is operating like a tranny with no first gear synchro, which is not what you bought.

As for the whole tranny being bum... it's not. They're fine units, just need a little TLC on the first gear synchro.
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Old 11-29-2001, 07:24 PM   #45
Stanley
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Quote:
and view the WRX as a $50K sport sedan like a M3 BMW
Well, I can't speak for the M3, but I have a good friend who owns both a M6 and a M5. You cannot shift into first on either of those cars when moving unless you rev match...sorry Austin, that's just the way it works.
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Old 11-29-2001, 09:04 PM   #46
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Allow myself to quote... myself.
Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
They do *not* all do this. I now have TWO subarus in my driveway that do not do this. BOTH of those subarus can downshift into first while moving, because they both have functioning first gear synchros.
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Old 12-01-2001, 02:31 AM   #47
NIN2001
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Angry OK I created this to get results

I understand that a lot of you are loyal Scoobie owners, I am now as well and LOVE MY CAR!!! I don't think I can stress this more. I have had people that own 2.5 RS' and they say it's normal... why... Because the dealer told them so and or thier friend said "Mine does it and so does thier's and the dealer said" I just want to have a car that works the way it's supposed to.

For the person who seems to think that I am comparing my car to a BMW I'm not I own one of those too, it's older but I can down shift it, it's a 320is 4cyl turbo as well.

I would, and have asked that anyone with a 2.5RS with the same problem e-mail me as well because with all the people that are having this argument that it's normal may have the same design flaw as us WRX owners.

Please read my post prior to this one it will explain what was done.

And I did baby my car after it started grinding, so the damage was minimal and as I reported almost not existant.

I am attaching the dealer warranty paper work that I was given to show what was done so you can show your dealer as well.

I am not sure but I think I said this before a quote from the service manager (Bill) at Bill Bryan Subaru said "This thing now shifts smoother than the new one's on the lot" I have to agree it is better then when it was new. It is soooo smooth now and I can even put the car in 1st and everything at reasonable speeds.

Just a note the car will go into gear at 25 to 30 MPH and so you know NO I DIDN'T LET OUT THE CLUTCH! just wanted to see what the limitation was for down shifting to first and NO I DIDN'T HAVE TO FORCE IT INTO GEAR!

Sorry bout the yelling just wanted that to stand out so those who wish to tell me that it's not supposed to do that DON'T!

Keep the e-mails coming!

Nick

Nick@WRXTuner.com


Last edited by NIN2001; 12-01-2001 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 12-01-2001, 03:40 AM   #48
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I have wrx and i only downshift in to first while creeping downhill at like 5mph to keep the car from rolling fast for whatever reason, howevr i have downshifted one time into first while i was going 20mph. but whenevr i downshift i always try to blip the throttle to match revs and then i quickly slid the clutch out immediatly after this so it feels smooth(sometimes) i think by matching revs it lessons the impact on the gears(syncros).. and it sounds cool too
But sometimes my shifter can be soo notchy is feels really uncool. But then other times it feels nice and smooth.. wassup with that?? I guess i should post in the transmission forum

Last edited by PaulRex; 12-01-2001 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 12-01-2001, 03:43 AM   #49
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You got a new clutch under warranty too! nice
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Old 12-01-2001, 08:36 AM   #50
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To those of you who say you shouldn't need to downshift into first, you must have never driven in really hilly areas. I HAVE tried turning on and going up certain hills in second, guess what? I stalled because it was either hit the hill at a high speed=bottom out or downshift into first, I think ill take the downshift into first option, when my car lets me that is.

Just last night I came upon one of those hills and I slowed down to about 5 mph and I had the clutch in the whole way, the shifter was in neutral for about 5 seconds while i slowed down and then I tried to put it into first, thats when i heard gh;asdhfj;fja;, or the best I coudl describe is the painful ear wrenching grinding sound. Followed by another wiggle to get it into first I could finally do so.

Last, If I try to shift into first at any other speed than below about 2 mph, I can get into first, sometimes it grinds and other times I have to wiggle it shake it or force it to get into first, no other way to describe it but it doesnt like to go into first. Now last night I got a CEL for whatever reason, i dont know? but its going in today and im going to tell them to look at the synchros for first.

Well thats my ranting.

Bryan
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