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Old 09-23-2006, 08:58 AM   #1
crazymikie
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Default Aquamist nozzle size

I just installed an Aquamist 2d system on my wrx. I'm running 750cc inhjectors, so I went with the 1.0mm nozzle. According to the Aquamist site, with the race pump (which I have), this should flow 310cc/m (I also have a spec-c tank with that rear pump priming the front pump, so I'd imagine it's a little more in reality).

I used to see about 75% duty cycles on my injectiors- so when I calculated the nozzle size, I rounded up to 80%.

.8 * 750 * 4 = 2400 cc * 15% = 360

So it looks like ideally, I should be running something closer to 360cc.

In any case, when I've been using the system with 50/50 water/meth, I only see a shift of about .7 AFR. I would have expected to see the car richen up more than that, but maybe I'm wrong. Does this seem like what I should expect? Also, should I consider running a second nozzle/pump?

Thanks!
Mike
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Old 09-23-2006, 10:57 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
I used to see about 75% duty cycles on my injectiors- so when I calculated the nozzle size, I rounded up to 80%.

.8 * 750 * 4 = 2400 cc * 15% = 360

So it looks like ideally, I should be running something closer to 360cc.

In any case, when I've been using the system with 50/50 water/meth, I only see a shift of about .7 AFR. I would have expected to see the car richen up more than that, but maybe I'm wrong. Does this seem like what I should expect? Also, should I consider running a second nozzle/pump?

Thanks!
Mike
Mike,
Richard of Aquamist frequents the board.
but he explained to me that 10% of total fuel not the 15%
you have in your equations. You could expect a richer afr
with the 15% you're using. he requested that tuned afr
should be around 12.5~12:1.
pretty sure he will read this and reply to you.
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Old 09-23-2006, 11:44 AM   #3
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Thanks!

Actually, since the WI is based on the pulse width of the injectors, I don't think I need to factor in the duty cycle- so by my calculations, I would need

4 * 750 = 3000 / 10 = 300cc

conservatively for 10% or 450cc for 15%. Looks like I am on the lower end of the range, but I just don't see the changes I'd expect. I have a spare nozzle I may try drilling out to 1.1 mm and see how that goes.

I'll play around with it today and see what happens.

Thanks!
Mike
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Old 09-23-2006, 05:12 PM   #4
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A change of .7 is not as small as you might think. Consider that you need to add almost twice as much alc to change the a/f ratio the same amount as with petrol(gasoline), and half of your injection is water. So seeing a .7 enrichment of the a/f reading might be about the same amount of liquid as if you saw a a/f change of 2.0-2.8(guesstimating since I know you need to add a bit less alc then 2X the petrol to get the same a/f ratio) by adding just petrol(without injection). It's kinda nice to make a non-injection map to see the difference in power. Imo this is a better way of seeing the results of injection(powerwise) then looking at the a/f ratio, even though the a/f ratio can help you determine certain things.

peace

Last edited by hippy; 09-24-2006 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:23 AM   #5
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Adding 10% of water to fuel is equivalent to injecting 30% more fuel into your engine.

Here are two charts that may help you with looking up the cooling capacity of water, water/methanol.



0.7 afr shift is quite a lot.

Last edited by Aquamist; 09-25-2006 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:25 AM   #6
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Thank you Hippy and Richard.

Those charts make more sense now. I did some experiemnts with the current setup- I was able to add quite a bit of boost and still keep the post IC temps under control. I removed a bit of fuel as well and the car seems pretty happy so far.

I have StreetTuner, so I can switch back and forth between injected and non-injected maps. I'll be heading to the dyno this weekend to see if I've made an improvement.

Thanks!
Mike
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:24 PM   #7
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Hey man,
I'm in the boston area, so if you want some company when tuning, send me a pm. I'd love to see how the street tuner works and what not.

peace
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Old 09-25-2006, 06:21 PM   #8
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i sent you a PM.

let me know when you are free and let's try to meet up.

thanks!
mike
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Old 09-26-2006, 11:56 AM   #9
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Did some logging today- was hitting mid 12's for AFRs, 25PSI and a nice timing curve. EGTs go a little hot in 4th gear (1650ish) but nothing to be too concerned about.
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:24 PM   #10
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So your nozzle flows less then 6gph, you're running 25psi with a 16g, and have an a/f reading of 12.5ish with a 50/50 mix and pump gas(93 I assume). Just had to get that out there for anyone who missed it.

peace
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hippy View Post
So your nozzle flows less then 6gph, you're running 25psi with a 16g, and have an a/f reading of 12.5ish with a 50/50 mix and pump gas(93 I assume). Just had to get that out there for anyone who missed it.

peace
that's about right- i should be more accurate and say that my a/f reading is around .85 lambda. I am just too lazy to put the correct scaling on my wideband. and yes, that's 93 octane. we are lucky to get it around here

Am I crazy?

Last edited by crazymikie; 09-26-2006 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:58 PM   #12
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Haha. I'd rather just leave it too, just cause I'm use to looking for certain readings. Having the reading be richer with alc would throw off my targets. Maybe lambda would be cool though?

peace
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Old 09-27-2006, 05:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
Did some logging today- was hitting mid 12's for AFRs, 25PSI and a nice timing curve. EGTs go a little hot in 4th gear (1650ish) but nothing to be too concerned about.
After the cobb conversion, does the factory ECU retain the ability to modify timing?
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Old 09-27-2006, 08:54 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
After the cobb conversion, does the factory ECU retain the ability to modify timing?
Yes. It retains all factory capabilities. The thing that StreetTuner allows is for you to change any of the mappings.

As far as timing goes, I can modify the fixed 'base' timing table and also modify the knock correction 'dynamic' table as well. So I can change how much timing the car is targeted to run as well as the range or authority that the car has to further advance timing past the values in the base table.

The ECU will still remove timing when it encounters engine noise.

My timing looks the same pre and post water injection, except I am running 3-5 PSI more boost and fueling went from about .75 lambda to .85 lambda.

I can try to get some logs today and post them up.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks!
Mike
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:34 AM   #15
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You guys just got me thinkin. What if a safety device was hooked upto a relay(or something) that turned the power off on a minor device(like map sensor) and in turn got the ecu to run limp mode? You guys think that this would be a good a way to use a safety device with an accessport(or any stock reflash)? I guess limitting the boost would still work on reflashes and be kinda the same concept, but the ecu would do that automatically once in limp mode(I think). Or, what if it sent a signal which made the the ecu think the boost was too high, or the egt's were too high, or whatever? Random I guess... I wanna look at your car sooooooo bad man! <dances>. Do you have the dds3?

peace

Last edited by hippy; 09-27-2006 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:28 PM   #16
crazymikie
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No dds3 for me

I was thinking about the limp mode thing- it would be cool because you would have different boost control and a different fuel map, but the only catch would be that I think you need to reset the ECU to get it out of limp mode. Not a huge deal, but it would be annoying if you have to keep relearning (of course this is based largely on how the car is tuned).

I currently have an LED hooked up to the clog detection. I am eventually going to wire up the BCS to bleed off boost when there is a problem. For now, I'm just trying to watch a wideband, EGT gauge and a little red LED while ripping down the highway getting logs

I think there would be a few ways to put the car into limp mode- I have to think about this further. It could be pretty interesting.

I hope my car proves to be as much fun as you think now....
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:49 PM   #17
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It is possible to wire up a 5-pin relay to cut boost via the the FIA2's Fault detection circuit. YOu are driving a dash led fr the time being.

If you can modify the coolant sensor map, you can use the same principle to fool the ECU into thinking the engine is cold and it should inject more fuel. Other possibilities such as IAT correction, MAP sensor correct and even MAF sensor correction - they are all voltage dependant sensors.

Last edited by Aquamist; 09-27-2006 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:53 PM   #18
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Here is a diagram how boost can be lowered with the FIA2 upon detect a WI fault.

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Old 09-27-2006, 02:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
It is possible to wire up a 5-pin relay to cut boost via the the FIA2's Fault detection circuit. YOu are driving a dash led fr the time being.

If you can modify the coolant sensor map, you can use the same principle to fool the ECU to think the enggione is cold and inject more fuel. Other possibilities such as IAT correction, MAP sensor correct and even MAF sensor correct - they are all voltage dependant sensors.

MAF is a very interesting option. By fooling the car to think it's seeing more air than it really is, you will cause it to enrich and decrease timing.

Hmmmmm

Thanks!
Mike
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