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Old 11-19-2010, 01:15 PM   #201
Ryan314
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So the OEM dealership clutch setup WILL work with any aftermarket lightweight flywheel?
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Old 11-20-2010, 11:47 PM   #202
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maybe i can add a little bit to this and also get some answers of my own. ive just resentlly install a OEM clutch kit and flywheel in my 01 RS also includeing front and rear shifter bushings, Kartboy shortshifter, and shifter linkage, clutch line and slave cylinder. at the time we decided to keep the exsisting tranny fluid while i waited for My shipment of Redline LW shockproof gear oil. before today everything felt fine and had no tranny noise or vibration, but after installing a group N tranny mount it seem to have the noise and vibration that everyone been describing.

Last edited by STMarshall; 11-21-2010 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:47 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STMarshall View Post
before today everything felt fine and had no tranny noise or vibration, but after installing a group N tranny mount it seem to have the noise and vibration that everyone been describing.
I think you answered your own question.

When you start installing stiffer bushings be prepared to deal with more NVH. It's just the way things are on our cars, they're noisy to begin with...
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:48 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan314 View Post
So the OEM dealership clutch setup WILL work with any aftermarket lightweight flywheel?
Sure as long as it is meant to fit your vehicle. Be prepared for the extra noise though. If you don't get any noise consider yourself one of the few lucky ones.
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:48 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REVNU View Post
I think you answered your own question.

When you start installing stiffer bushings be prepared to deal with more NVH. It's just the way things are on our cars, they're noisy to begin with...
yeah i understand i just wanted to tell people that even with a OEM clutch and flywheel you can still get NVH im starting to think its more about the mount then it is about the after market clutches
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:00 PM   #206
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will group N motor mounts with group N tranny mounts help get rid of NVH or make it worse im inclined to get stock sti mounts if its going to make it worse
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:18 PM   #207
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Any group N mount will transmit more noise but it would be lower frequency sound rather than the gear or rattling sounds. The noise this thread is about isn't caused my mounts though, its a metallic sound. A rubber mount will not transmit frequencies as high in pitch as what mine and many others was doing.
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:24 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STMarshall View Post
will group N motor mounts with group N tranny mounts help get rid of NVH or make it worse im inclined to get stock sti mounts if its going to make it worse
Harder bushing and mounts will make NVH worse, not less.

I initially had the noise with my exedy oem clutch and stock flywheel. Now I have a group N tranny mount and of course the noise is still there, in fact you can hear it a little better

Frederik

edit: I was too slow for 2slofouru lol
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Old 11-21-2010, 08:06 PM   #209
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yeah i understand i just wanted to tell people that even with a OEM clutch and flywheel you can still get NVH im starting to think its more about the mount then it is about the after market clutches
I don't think the problem is the mounts, but I agree it will make it sound even worse.

I think it is pretty clear that as the car comes from factory, there is a somewhat finely tuned balance between flywheel weight, original clutch springs and specs, gears backlash etc and changing the specs of one or many of those components will change this balance. Then the gears backlash wiggling front/back because the clutch cannot absorb the shocks between engine and drivetrain as good as it used to.

Imagine the springs inside the clutch that are absorbing the shocks between the drivetrain and engine. Having a different spring (different linearity and firmness) could cause the bounce to be different and maybe over-bounce, having multiple rebounds of the clutch disc instead of one single correctly dampened pulse.

Its kind of like a car's suspension (minus the shocks). Spring rates affect the bouncing speed, and can make huge changes in a car's ride (like the clutch springs changes the clutch dampening behavior)
Changing the weight of the car (comparable the the inertia of the flywheel) will also change the balance the car previously had between spring rates and car weight, and the car might end up bouncy if the car is made lighter, just like if you increased spring rates.

So it would seem logical that there is possibly combinations of clutch/flywheel other than stock that might give a good balance. I don't really see how one could predict the result of a given combination. I would suppose a ligther flywheel would need a clutch with softer springs?

The dual springs of the OEM clutch maybe have a wider tolerance to absorb small and big shocks and are probably less sensitive to clutch/flywheel "mismatch".

Anyway, that is a lot of "maybes", but that's just what's going on in my head right now. I hope nobody gets upset about me thinking out loud, wondering why the sky is blue etc

Fred
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Old 11-21-2010, 08:07 PM   #210
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Well today I did what others have said.... Put 34 in the front and 32 in the rear tires added a bit more tranny fluid to put it a bit above the full hole.

This caused the deceleration noise to significantly reduce and shifted the noise to only be right around the 2000 RPM range instead of more around 2500.

So if you have this noise at least give it a shot. I may even go 3 lbs difference front to back to see if that does anything more.

Much happier after trying this. Not perfect but much better.

By the way I have Group N mounts, tranny and engine, and Extra-S fluid.
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Old 11-22-2010, 11:07 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by REVNU View Post
I think you answered your own question.

When you start installing stiffer bushings be prepared to deal with more NVH. It's just the way things are on our cars, they're noisy to begin with...
I think we're confusing two different issues here. NVH from stiffer mounts is not the same as the drivetrain noise we are talking about. The issue is definitely related to clutch parts: I've had N mounts for years, no issues. Clutch kit gets swapped out for Exedy OEM (same flywheel), noise is there.
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Old 11-23-2010, 02:51 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowphun View Post
I think we're confusing two different issues here. NVH from stiffer mounts is not the same as the drivetrain noise we are talking about. The issue is definitely related to clutch parts: I've had N mounts for years, no issues. Clutch kit gets swapped out for Exedy OEM (same flywheel), noise is there.
If you read back quite a few pages I'm quite sure I know what the issue/topic is about. I have the dreaded "Crude Transmission..." as do many of the other posters in this thread.

What I was trying to say is that if you have the drivetrain noise, installing stiffer bushings is NOT going to help your problem. I guess I should have made that more clear.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:07 PM   #213
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We'll see soon. Its a clutchmasters kevlar with an aluminum flywheel. Its actually lighter than my exedy fw and the pressure plate is also smaller and lighter. There is one small ingredient you may not have considered... it is a fwd setup so the center driveshaft won't be oscillating and contributing to the dreaded noise. I'm curious to see how it goes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by REVNU View Post
I wouldn't count on it. A lot of people still get the noise even with the OEM flywheel, myself included. It's the CLUTCH assembly that is the problem, the LW Flywheel just amplifies the "problem".

If you don't get any noise consider yourself very lucky.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:36 AM   #214
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I can add my pennies to the pile here.

I have 2 swapped cars under my belt now.

The first one is my 2006 WRX with full 2005 STi 6MT swap.
The second one is my 2006 FXT with full 2007 STi 6MT swap.

In the WRX I am using a stock resurfaced flywheel and an RPS StreetMax clutch with street disc and absolutely ZERO noise whatsoever!

In the FXT I am using a stock resurfaced flywheel and an ACT SB4-HDSS clutch set up and here is my story with that.

The noise was so bad that I have done the following to try and resolve it.

(1) had a custom 2 piece drive shaft fabbed up to the tune of $600.00++
(2) went back to a different stock STi driveshaft
(3) replaced the used 2007 6MT with a brand new 2007 6MT straight from Subaru
(4) swapped out the rear diff with a 2008 STi R180

Now keep this in mind.

I did ALL of the above steps in the order they are posted and NOTHING fixed the noise.

All told, I have spent $5750.00 trying to solve the problem and NOTHING has fixed it.

I was (until I read this entire thread 5 minutes ago) convinced that 2007 6MT's are crap compared to 2005 and I basically attributed that to the gear ratios since BOTH 2007 tranniies I have had in my car made the EXACT same noise.

When it is all said and done, I will not have spent that much money because the parts I have sold have all but paid for the parts I replaced but still, I spent the money up front before I sold any of the old parts off, primarily because I am not a douche who would sell bad parts.

Anyway, I am now a bit embarrassed to admit all of this, because somewhere in the back of my mind I thought it could have been the clutch but I doubted my initial instinct and instead went with the more expensive fixes first.......what a waste of time and money.

So, here are the facts.

BOTH flywheels in my cars have been resurfaced by the same machine shop who has been doing machine work for me for more than 30 years.
I would venture to say there was no problem there.

The RPS clutch in my WRX (6MT) is dead silent and has exceptional pedal feel and handles the 380+ HP at the wheels I have been dyno'd at.

The ACT clutch is a piece of shat and is not worth the metal it is made out of, and I will NEVER purchase another ACT product as long as I live.

I am NOT 100% certain that IF I swap out the ACT clutch with an RPS that my noise will go away, but I am going to buy one and try it because this noise has also made me want to sell my beautiful Forester and buy an EVO, or something else, because I hate this noise so much it makes me sick.

I have replaced (nearly) the entire drive train chasing this noise.

There is NO WAY IN HELL this noise/vibration is acceptable or "normal".
Those of you who convince yourselves that it is, are settling for mediocrity.

I will most likely buy a new OEM flywheel as well just to be on the safe side, although I do NOT think the flywheel is the culprit. I truly believe that it lies within the pressure plate and friction disc's of shiddy junk clutch components.
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:46 AM   #215
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I can add to this also. Mine has made the noise ever since i put in a act street clutch and flywheel 3yrs ago. My tranny broke 3rd gear a few months ago and thought it would be the opportune time to fix the problem.

Had the gears replaced with Albins but the damn place that put the tranny in didn't replace the OEM flywheel like i stated or the OEM Clutch. They also stuck in a exedy clutch instead of OEM. They assured me the noise would not be there after all was said and done.

The noise IS still there.
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:00 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post

I will most likely buy a new OEM flywheel as well just to be on the safe side, although I do NOT think the flywheel is the culprit. I truly believe that it lies within the pressure plate and friction disc's of shiddy junk clutch components.
I think there are a people that are changing only the flywheel and are getting the same problem. Basically, the fact that a given aftermarket clutch+stock flywheel combination does not do the noise is not an indication that this clutch will always be noiseless with all flywheels. But it does give a good hint that the RPS clutch seems to have a more efficient dampening because you did'nt have any noise.

If you think of how the clutch works I think it's not likely a friction material issue because it does the noise when fully engaged. It would more likely be the tranny itself that emits the noice because it receives the rotational vibrations that the aftermarket clutch is now unable to dampen (because of different/less engineering).

I think the stock clutch have a wider range of rotational vibration dampening, i.e. can dampen different kind of vibrations. The RPS probably has better dampening than the ACT too so that probably gives less chances of having the sound.

It would be nice to take all the experiences of everybody in this thread and make a kind of grid to quickly see who got it with which clutch and flywheel. That will maybe pinpoint the more silent setups etc.

Fred
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:38 AM   #217
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^^
Thats a good idea Fred,

I can tell you that my Forester will make that noise at idle while the car is warming up and that if I depress the clutch, the noise goes away.

It is a lot more noisy when the car is cold @ idle than it is when the car is warmed up and I can hear the noise dissipate as the tranny winds down when the clutch is depressed.

In other words, when first started, I hear some of this noise, then when I depress the clutch the noise goes away after the trans internals have stopped spinning. Because of the oil thickness when cold, it takes about 1.5 seconds for the noise to go away, and as soon as I let the clutch out, I hear the noise again.

So, I can only surmise that it is in fact as you (and others) have mentioned, the poor damping characteristics of the ACT friction plate and most likely the pressure plate.

There is just no way in hell I am going to live with this annoying noise.
I have FAR too much money invested in swapping my car, suspension and engine upgrades to have something that sounds like a Model T Ford at low rpm. It is heinous.

<edit> I just thought I would edit this and explain myself a little better.

The noise in my car is from 2000 to about 2500 rpm when "lugging" or bogging" the car down in a higher gear, like 3rd or 4th for example.

I do a lot of driving in this range when I am on the freeway commuting to work and back in LA traffic, you really have no choice but to be at that rpm in those gears unless you want to be shifting every 3-5 seconds.

I do not get *as much* of the noise on decelleration as I do when running at 2000-2500 in 3rd or 4th.

When I do get the noise, it feels/sounds like the tranny is going to vibrate itself out of the car for the brief moments that it makes that god awful sound.

I also have every group-n mount and bushing known to exist throughout my driveline, and also have TiC tranny crossmember bushings etc.

Last edited by Team Scream; 12-02-2010 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:01 AM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
^^
Thats a good idea Fred,

I can tell you that my Forester will make that noise at idle while the car is warming up and that if I depress the clutch, the noise goes away.

It is a lot more noisy when the car is cold @ idle than it is when the car is warmed up and I can hear the noise dissipate as the tranny winds down when the clutch is depressed.

In other words, when first started, I hear some of this noise, then when I depress the clutch the noise goes away after the trans internals have stopped spinning. Because of the oil thickness when cold, it takes about 1.5 seconds for the noise to go away, and as soon as I let the clutch out, I hear the noise again.

So, I can only surmise that it is in fact as you (and others) have mentioned, the poor damping characteristics of the ACT friction plate and most likely the pressure plate.

There is just no way in hell I am going to live with this annoying noise.
I have FAR too much money invested in swapping my car, suspension and engine upgrades to have something that sounds like a Model T Ford at low rpm. It is heinous.
For me that is a different noise. As long as I remember I always had this noise when cold and the clutch is released (tranny moving). I think this is normal and I dont believe it is related much to the clutch dampening but I might be wrong. Are you saying that at cold temperatures, with stock clutch you did not have this cold tranny noise?

After all as you said at below freezing temperatures the oil is certainly very thick and the oil going through the gears probably make this noise. It goes completely away when warmed up so I am not concerned about this.

Also it certainly doesnt sound as bad as the rattle when coasting aroung 2500-3000k, and it is not the same kind of noise. But I guess it's not impossible that this sound too is amplified.

Fred
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:14 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
I can add my pennies to the pile here.

I have 2 swapped cars under my belt now.

The first one is my 2006 WRX with full 2005 STi 6MT swap.
The second one is my 2006 FXT with full 2007 STi 6MT swap.

In the WRX I am using a stock resurfaced flywheel and an RPS StreetMax clutch with street disc and absolutely ZERO noise whatsoever!

In the FXT I am using a stock resurfaced flywheel and an ACT SB4-HDSS clutch set up and here is my story with that.

The noise was so bad that I have done the following to try and resolve it.

(1) had a custom 2 piece drive shaft fabbed up to the tune of $600.00++
(2) went back to a different stock STi driveshaft
(3) replaced the used 2007 6MT with a brand new 2007 6MT straight from Subaru
(4) swapped out the rear diff with a 2008 STi R180

Now keep this in mind.

I did ALL of the above steps in the order they are posted and NOTHING fixed the noise.

All told, I have spent $5750.00 trying to solve the problem and NOTHING has fixed it.

I was (until I read this entire thread 5 minutes ago) convinced that 2007 6MT's are crap compared to 2005 and I basically attributed that to the gear ratios since BOTH 2007 tranniies I have had in my car made the EXACT same noise.

When it is all said and done, I will not have spent that much money because the parts I have sold have all but paid for the parts I replaced but still, I spent the money up front before I sold any of the old parts off, primarily because I am not a douche who would sell bad parts.

Anyway, I am now a bit embarrassed to admit all of this, because somewhere in the back of my mind I thought it could have been the clutch but I doubted my initial instinct and instead went with the more expensive fixes first.......what a waste of time and money.

So, here are the facts.

BOTH flywheels in my cars have been resurfaced by the same machine shop who has been doing machine work for me for more than 30 years.
I would venture to say there was no problem there.

The RPS clutch in my WRX (6MT) is dead silent and has exceptional pedal feel and handles the 380+ HP at the wheels I have been dyno'd at.

The ACT clutch is a piece of shat and is not worth the metal it is made out of, and I will NEVER purchase another ACT product as long as I live.

I am NOT 100% certain that IF I swap out the ACT clutch with an RPS that my noise will go away, but I am going to buy one and try it because this noise has also made me want to sell my beautiful Forester and buy an EVO, or something else, because I hate this noise so much it makes me sick.

I have replaced (nearly) the entire drive train chasing this noise.

There is NO WAY IN HELL this noise/vibration is acceptable or "normal".
Those of you who convince yourselves that it is, are settling for mediocrity.

I will most likely buy a new OEM flywheel as well just to be on the safe side, although I do NOT think the flywheel is the culprit. I truly believe that it lies within the pressure plate and friction disc's of shiddy junk clutch components.
ACT makes quality products.. In fact - in my experience - it's RPS that has a reputation for making a terrible product.. I've only used one of their clutches - never again.. - So I don't have a lot of personal experience with them - other than they were about on par with the rest of the chinese knockoffs on the internet.

If you are so interested in getting things right at all costs - then why would you EVER run a re-surfaced flywheel.. I don't care who the machine shop is - just don't. You aren't saving yourself anything.. The cost of a new flywheel is absolutely negligible... The cost of my time driving to the machine shop to drop off - then pick up the flywheel carries a higher cost than just buying a new one..

How do you have the transmission mounted in the FXT? The noise is not a function of the clutch - unless you factor mass into the equation.. The more mass you have spinning on the flywheel the less you hear.. RPS clutches are garbage in my opinion - maybe it weighs 10 lbs more than the ACT?
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:53 PM   #220
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Check your tire pressure!!!!!! 34F 32R it really helped the vibration i was getting from under the car
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:36 PM   #221
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Check your tire pressure!!!!!! 34F 32R it really helped the vibration i was getting from under the car
I always run higher tire pressure in the front about 2 psi difference because the front of the car is heavier, I have always run it that way so I can't really tell if it helps in my case, maybe it would be even worse with equal tire pressures!

It makes sense that there is less noise with lower rear tire pressure as it kind of reduce the play in all the gears by keeping a "tension" in the driveline (front wheels moving slightly faster than the rear so it reduces the play in the geartrain).

Is'nt the factory specs for tire pressures something like 30-32 anyway ? (same difference of psi) Don't quote me on the exact values I'm not exactly sure.

Fred
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:07 AM   #222
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ACT makes quality products.. In fact - in my experience - it's RPS that has a reputation for making a terrible product.. I've only used one of their clutches - never again.. - So I don't have a lot of personal experience with them - other than they were about on par with the rest of the chinese knockoffs on the internet.
Actually, that statement is a bit of a stretch there bud.
I have been to the RPS manufacturing facility and seen first hand how they make their clutches and I can tell you with absolute certainty that it is ACT that is a knock off copy and not RPS.
I am kicking myself for buying this piece of crap ACT clutch right now..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post
If you are so interested in getting things right at all costs - then why would you EVER run a re-surfaced flywheel.. I don't care who the machine shop is - just don't. You aren't saving yourself anything.. The cost of a new flywheel is absolutely negligible... The cost of my time driving to the machine shop to drop off - then pick up the flywheel carries a higher cost than just buying a new one..
Because the machine shop is reputable and is a stones throw away from my house, and because I have used them before with 100% success on my other 6MT equipped car. (I have 2 cars with 6 speed trannies). And since I had already had success using a resurfaced flywheel ($40.00) it made perfect sense to do try it again.

You can make whatever claims you want, but in my "opinion" which is based on personal experience, the RPS clutch out performs the ACT on every level.
take up, release, pedal feel, silence, and works with absolutely ZERO clutch shudder...
This P.O.S. ACT clutch shudders and generally feels like you would expect a Chinese knock off to feel....... like crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post
How do you have the transmission mounted in the FXT? The noise is not a function of the clutch - unless you factor mass into the equation.. The more mass you have spinning on the flywheel the less you hear.. RPS clutches are garbage in my opinion - maybe it weighs 10 lbs more than the ACT?
um... with a transmission mount?

I am using ALL Sti components in the Forester, cross members, mounts, everything.
I also have the spacers removed from the front crossmember (engine cradle) which allows the STi driveshaft to be perfectly aligned with the R180.
(The correct way to do a 6MT swap into a Forester).

We shall see,
When I replace the clutch here in a few weeks, I will report back with my findings.
I am reasonably certain that once I get this P.O.S. ACT clutch out of here, I will be as quiet as my other 6 speed car.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:51 AM   #223
frederik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post

How do you have the transmission mounted in the FXT? The noise is not a function of the clutch - unless you factor mass into the equation.. The more mass you have spinning on the flywheel the less you hear.. RPS clutches are garbage in my opinion - maybe it weighs 10 lbs more than the ACT?
I can't argue on the quality of the brands as I never tried and see them first hand. But I don't agree that the noise is not a function of the clutch, I think it is pretty clear that a clutch replacement for not OEM or a flywheel replacement for not OEM can both cause the noise to appear.

I did'nt count but quite a few of us (including myself) have the noise with only the clutch replaced (OEM Exedy kit in my case).

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Old 12-03-2010, 07:15 AM   #224
Nat
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A matrix of options would be neat to see. I had my OEM flywheel resurfaced and an OEM Exedy installed a few months ago and it makes noise. I wish I had paid the extra $$ for an OEM clutch as well as the noise drives me nuts. It's not too loud and not always repeatable, but it's definitely there.
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Old 12-04-2010, 06:32 PM   #225
Team Scream
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I need to take a step back and relax my position on this a little bit.

After speaking with someone else who not only has an SG Forester swap like mine, AND has also done more swaps than you can count easily, (in my case at least) the noises could be completely un-related to the clutch.

Also, because I have not actually tried any other clutch in my FXT, I cannot necessarily blame the ACT clutch.

Until I have actually solved the problem, I am simply making assumptions.

Anyway, I need to apologize for my earlier statements that ACT was a poor product, I simply do not know what it is yet.

My noise is so frustrating that I over reacted once I bought in to the "it's teh clutch" theory.

It very well may be, but I do know for certain I have not replaced the clutch yet....

Last edited by Team Scream; 12-04-2010 at 06:49 PM.
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