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Old 10-12-2006, 12:45 PM   #1
Durmiente
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#87 STX

Default Help me setup the STX Wagon!

Hi all,

I heard this is the best place on the web for subie related racing info... the motorsports forum here on Nasioc.

I've posted this before on other forums (i.e. ClubWRX) but never really got the feedback that I wanted... only 1 or 2 guys really helped out.

Currently, I have

Whiteline sperical front endlinks
Whiteline rear endlinks
Whiteline 27mm 2 way adjustable front sway bar (SOLID)
Whiteline 27mm 3 way adjustable rear sway bar (SOLID)
MY04+ Subaru OEM sway bar mounts
STI replica front strut tower bar
STI replica rear strut tower bar

I want to complete the suspension within this next year... that includes tires and springs/struts or coilovers etc..

EDIT: SInce the beginning of this thread, I have added the following parts (to save you all from reading everything, unless you really want to )

5Zigen FN01R-C 17x8 et 48
Falken Azenis RT615s 235/40/17
Whiteline Steering Rack Bushings
Gutted stock uppipe
Hawk HPS brake pads


------------------------------------
First up: rims and tires.
My current DD setup and autox setup is 205/55/16 pirelli pzero neros all seasons (I know, not ideal, but whatever... started autoxing after I had them already)

I was originally planning on going with stock rims and 225/45/16 or 225/50/16 tires (hankooks or falkens), but after the last thread, I am keeping my options open... basically, what happened is that I hit a curb in an auto-x and now I only have 3 extra OEM rims... since i have to buy a replacement to run stock tire-ish sizes, i figure I ought to consider other sized rims.

So basically I concluded on the other forum that i either go with stock rims OR I go all out and get myself a set of 17x8s with 235/40/17, which seems to be a pretty popular STX setup. I am also interesteed in 16x8s with the 245/45/16 hankooks, but that is the only tire available in that size, so it might be a risky choice.... no matter what I need new rims and will need to roll the rear fenders.... so right now I have a few additional questions:

1. In looking for rims I found this 17x8 5x100 48et rim on edgeracing.com. It is $134 per rim but is a bit heavy (20.2 lbs). My question is, where do I draw the line between a good, economical choice in the right size and something that is the same size but lighter but more expensive? Basically, If I pay about $30-50 more per rim I could probably get a 17lb rim... so what weight difference makes it worth it? will I even notice the difference?

2. The above rim is pretty cheap, but Rotas come close too.... I probably should consider the Rota Slipstreams in 17x8, anyone know how much they weigh?

3. I will take any and all suggestions for light, cheap rims. I really dont want to spend that much, but that is sort of hard to do for rims and tires. Obviously the most economical thing is to pick up another stocker and run a smaller sized tire, but it seems that the increased rim width will help more than anything (am I right about this?)... even if I ran 225s on 16x8s or 17xs, they would be a lot better than 225s on 16x6.5, right?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now on to suspension...

This was my primary concern, but now it has moved down on my list as I really need tires bad (my daily driver/autox pirellis Pzero Nero M&S's are getting very bald). So I want suspension, but tires are a need more than a want, so suspension is more on the back burner for now... yet I am still researching it to find a good setup for when i get more cash (summertime maybe).

So here is what my car handles like - it feels a lot like my friend's cars that have coilovers - very little body roll, and I usually beat them in autox (they both drive fairly modified Jettas with full suspension). I really benefit from the huge sway bars... however my only complaints are as follows:

1. the car gets tailhappy in higher speed slaloms (anything above 1st gear). if it is more than 3 transitions or so, it is pretty easy to feel the rear end wanting to come out.... I've spun it twice in competitions, once at the track in a 50mph slalom and another time in a slalom in an autox that was very tight after coming through a higher speed section in mid-2nd gear. My theory is that the stock shocks are not strong/fast enough to dampen the quicker moving big sway bars... my proposed solution is better shocks or coilovers that can handle bigger bars... then maybe it wont be tailhappy. It would be nice to be able to slalom all day with the car never really getting unbalanced.

2. The car rotates if I don't push it too hard, however it will still understeer if I reach the limit, especially in sweepers. At full stiffness (29f/29r) the car does better but I can still notice a hint of understeer at times (something that as I driver I am getting better at not encountering or avoiding, i.e. straightening the wheel if I am going to fast and slowing down before I turn, instead of just continuing to understeer). however, it would be nice for it to be neutral or maybe even slightly oversteer if I enter a corner too fast. power on oversteer would be nice to achieve, but i dont even know if that is possible with AWD...

So for suspension, I have one of three options in mind:

1. entry level coilovers, such as the Helix DNAs or Megan Racing coilovers... both are 8k/6k rates and are about $1k. both are dampening and ride height adjustable. The megans come in 12k/10k for the same price but that's probably just a tad bit too stiff for the road...(more on this later)

2. KYB AGX struts mated to STI v7 pink springs, with camber plates. however these, like the coilovers, ARE NOT wagon specific and will make me lose 0.7 degrees of negative camber up front. that sucks!!!

3. Koni Inserts with ground control coilovers and camber plates... i prefer this option the most, as it allows me to design the suspension completely in terms of the length and rate of all the springs. it also allows me to keep the stock shock body and actually maintain decent camber without having to use a longer sedan strut.

My primary concern is attainging a good allignment range (I would like to run 3degrees neg. camber up front, as I heard this is great for autox. for a wagon, it is probably difficult to attain, but I would love to hear your feedback.

My car is 100% daily driver as well. I know that the 12k/10k megans with the 17x8s and 235/40 would probably make the car close to national-type setup (I know the coilovers aren't great compared to others but I can't spend oodles of money on this, I am just a student). However, with such rates would i even be able to drive the car on the road? i also am worried about coilovers getting blown, so I almost would prefer a setup that is good but is reliable at the same time... once the suspension is in and adjusted i really dont want to have to replace it... want to just do it right the first time and be done with it

If coilovers can be reliable and give me decent allignment #s, I prefer them, as they are cheaper and are an all-in-one package.

--------------------------------------------
Power

Currently the subie is stock here.

I really see no need for more power... I've been beaten by saturns with awesome suspension.... I don't really run big autox courses (most are 1st gear with some 2nd) so my power really is never an advantage. however, i HATE courses that utilize 2nd for just small sections... I have a hard time getting it back into 1st... i can do it but feel like I am just wasting time doing so... so my theory here is to do specific mods that will give me more torque with less lag so that 2nd gear can be used for tighter courses.... thus not necessitating the downshift.

-uppipe (this might happen soon, either OE gutted or STI OE pipe)
-crank pulley (for more low end torque before the turbo spools)
-smaller diameter tire (this would make me have to shift sooner than 35mph, but would the added "torque/gearing" in second really be worth it? would second gear suffice for most courses?
-other mods that increase low end?

later on down the road
-catted DP with manual cutout AFTER the cat (would this be STX legal?) I see it as just a means to a "cheap" turboback since I don't want my car to be super loud on the road anyways.

so.... ideas?
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Last edited by Durmiente; 05-24-2007 at 08:42 PM. Reason: updated mods on car
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:10 PM   #2
BlkWRXWag
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17 x 8 Rota + suspension option #3
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Old 10-12-2006, 01:44 PM   #3
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You'll hear a few different opinions, and I really don't know what your budget is but I'll try to help out with what makes sense for a student who still wants to autoX.

1st off, you need to address your brakes. Get yourself a set of hawk HP pads, goodrich lines, and dot4 fluid to increase the boiling point. Go check out Ken at WRXBrakes in the vendor area. He's a brake guru around here and owns a wagon that he personally tracks himself. He'll put together a package for you that make sense. Don't forget to tell him I sent you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
17x8s with 235/40/17
Yup, that's what you want... and buy the lightest set you can afford. Adding rotational weight is one of the worst things you can do for performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
2. KYB AGX struts mated to STI v7 pink springs, with camber plates. however these, like the coilovers, ARE NOT wagon specific and will make me lose 0.7 degrees of negative camber up front. that sucks!!!
Sorry, but that's wrong. I've got AGXs on my wagon. You need to get the GC8 fronts for proper camber correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
My primary concern is attainging a good allignment range (I would like to run 3degrees neg. camber up front, as I heard this is great for autox. for a wagon, it is probably difficult to attain, but I would love to hear your feedback.
Eccentric camber bolts can get you 3 degrees, and if you lower the car you'll need to get a set for the rear too. I'm running 2-1/4 degneg. up front and 1 deg neg in the rear right now. If you're running it mostly on the street, I wouldn't recomend more than that because of excessive tire wear. But that's up to you.

IMO, camber plates would be ideal so you can change your settings for street and track as needed.

And if you're student on a budget, don't get coilovers. AGXs, Konis, (or JDM inverted struts) with pink springs would be ideal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
-uppipe (this might happen soon, either OE gutted or STI OE pipe)
I'll sell you mine that I just gutted. That will help you with the downtime of the swap since it's pretty involved. And do the DP at the same time while you have everything apart. You don't want to do this twice. PM me if you're interested in my UP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
later on down the road
-catted DP with manual cutout AFTER the cat (would this be STX legal?)
Sorry, the cutout is not legal.

You may want to look into the 6gun balljoint extensions later on also. I believe they're STX legal, and will help your camber curve, especially if you touch the struts and springs to go lower.

I also forgot to mention...

You want a slight amount of oversteer for autoX so you can properly get the ass around and set up for the next turn. Understeer is the enemy. Try going with the lower swaybar setting in the front and a stiffer setting in the rear. Then run a lower tire pressure in the front and more in the rear. I know... it seems like you should do the opposite, but trust, me, it's the way to get oversteer. Even setting it up neutral is better than for understeer. And you'll need to play around with the tire pressure in relation to your suspension setup to find the sweet spot.

Good luck, have fun, and be safe.

-Chris

Last edited by chrisarella; 10-12-2006 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 10-12-2006, 02:20 PM   #4
BlkWRXWag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisarella
You'll hear a few different opinions, and I really don't know what your budget is but I'll try to help out with what makes sense for a student who still wants to autoX.

1st off, you need to address your brakes. Get yourself a set of hawk HP pads, goodrich lines, and dot4 fluid to increase the boiling point. Go check out Ken at WRXBrakes in the vendor area. He's a brake guru around here and owns a wagon that he personally tracks himself. He'll put together a package for you that make sense. Don't forget to tell him I sent you.
Incorrect - stock brakes are just fine for AX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisarella
Yup, that's what you want... and buy the lightest set you can afford. Adding rotational weight is one of the worst things you can do for performance.
Top cars at Nationals were running Rotas or 5Zigen, both cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisarella
Eccentric camber bolts can get you 3 degrees, and if you lower the car you'll need to get a set for the rear too. I'm running 2-1/4 degneg. up front and 1 deg neg in the rear right now. If you're running it mostly on the street, I wouldn't recomend more than that because of excessive tire wear. But that's up to you.

IMO, camber plates would be ideal so you can change your settings for street and track as needed.

And if you're student on a budget, don't get coilovers. AGXs, Konis, (or JDM inverted struts) with pink springs would be ideal.
Camber bolts alone will not get you 3 deg. You need camber plates. If you're on a budget, just get springs, camber plates and OEM shocks. Save for Konis later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisarella
You may want to look into the 6gun balljoint extensions later on also. I believe they're STX legal, and will help your camber curve, especially if you touch the struts and springs to go lower.
Not legal in STX
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:32 PM   #5
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do not get choice #1 for suspension. all those cheapo coilovers are complete crap.

i have a nationals winning suspension for sale too if your intersted. KC used this same setup on his STX winning wagon.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1065107
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:54 PM   #6
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RA's are not very friendly at all on the street. heck my flex's arn't that friendly too. I vote agx or koni set up a few people locally here had good luck with them
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryfist View Post
do not get choice #1 for suspension. all those cheapo coilovers are complete crap.

i have a nationals winning suspension for sale too if your intersted. KC used this same setup on his STX winning wagon.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1065107
That is an AWESOME deal for those and they are a great setup when they are dialed in like those are. They were on teh car I drove two years ago and even though they weren't dialed in they were a nice setup. Yeah they are harsh on the street but honestly if you want the setup for STX it isn't going to be super nice on the street but you can still daily drive it.

Of course I'd just sell the wagon and buy Jason's complete car. That is one great setup he has on his car and is wonderfully setup.
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:14 PM   #8
angryfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb View Post
That is an AWESOME deal for those and they are a great setup when they are dialed in like those are. They were on teh car I drove two years ago and even though they weren't dialed in they were a nice setup. Yeah they are harsh on the street but honestly if you want the setup for STX it isn't going to be super nice on the street but you can still daily drive it.

Of course I'd just sell the wagon and buy Jason's complete car. That is one great setup he has on his car and is wonderfully setup.
i dont think that they are super harsh on the street, but i like riding on stiff suspensions. they are definitly not harsh enough not to daily drive. all of us (me, kc, hoppe, etc) used to drive on these to and from events back when we didnt have trailers.

of couse the optimal thing would be jsut to buy my car ... but just giving him some options
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:22 PM   #9
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Agreed, back and forth to work, or back and forth to events, the RAs with 10K/12K were fine to drive on... expecially ont he same routes back and forth to work... you know where the 'gotchas' are.

Example: I used to make sure I was at least in the middle lane going over this one portion of highway near my house... it was a bridge over a stream. The expansion 'dropoff' on the other side was fine for a normally sprung car.... but on the wagon... *whoomp* it felt like the car dropped a foot or two. (It was just sudden). You feel everything... but with stock seats as a cushion, it was not violent to the body. Onramps... offramps... solid. Minor bumps... solid.

--kC
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:46 PM   #10
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Wait a week or so and KC's old RA's will be available without the wagon attached. And add another vote to the "10/12's aren't too harsh for commuting" tally. On my commute, I eventually knew where I could and where I couldn't sip my coffee. Otherwise, no big deal.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:45 PM   #11
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I'll look into those RAs but a bit out of my price range. plus like i said before i need to get tires first. out of curiosity - you mentioned that there are 5 sets of springs with them... you mean you have 20 springs total and they are rates 6,7,8,9,and 10k? i take it the coilovers are dampening adjustable and ride height, or are they preload and rebound instead? how many miles do you have on them, and what are you estimating the rebuild needs for the shocks (how often and how much does it cost?)

Chrisarella - The KYBs also sound really good to me. I had heard that the GC8 fronts work better than normal KYBs, but I also heard that they arent a real complete solution. Do aftermarket eccentric bolts work different when compared to stock eccentric bolts to get better allignment? or did you just replace the second normal bolt with an eccentric bolt?

Chrisarella - what tire pressures do you run? I usually run 40f/44r and that seems to be better than if I flip it (the only thing I ever tried). Sometimes i run 42f/46r but that was once and it didnt really seem to help any.

why is the cutout illegal in STX? I see no reason why if it comes after the cat... it would basically be like running the car with no cat-back exhaust attached, which is basically the same as going out and buying the whole 3" system. as mentioned before I want my car to be quiet on the road, so that is why I dont want an actual full exhaust. Cops here are really anal about that.

thanks for all the feedback and keep it coming...
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Old 10-12-2006, 07:25 PM   #12
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Most sites have a decibel limit, having a cutout would most likely go above that limit. Locally I belive the limit is 95 or 98 db.
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Old 10-12-2006, 07:34 PM   #13
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That, and the exhaust must exit behind the driver.
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
Chrisarella - The KYBs also sound really good to me. I had heard that the GC8 fronts work better than normal KYBs, but I also heard that they arent a real complete solution.
I think there was a misunderstanding. The GC8 front is the version of KYB AGXs you'd buy for the front of your wagon because the mounting hole locations on the bottom of the strut are the same... along with the GD sedan rears which are the same fit on the wagon... so you'll have 4 perfect fitting AGXs when you're done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
Do aftermarket eccentric bolts work different when compared to stock eccentric bolts to get better allignment? or did you just replace the second normal bolt with an eccentric bolt?
You replace your stock eccentric bolts with the aftermarket ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
Chrisarella - what tire pressures do you run? I usually run 40f/44r and that seems to be better than if I flip it (the only thing I ever tried). Sometimes i run 42f/46r but that was once and it didnt really seem to help any.
I have 225/40/18 Khumo Ecstas so I think we'd run different pressures. But for reference, I run 36 in the front and 40 in the rear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
why is the cutout illegal in STX? I see no reason why if it comes after the cat... it would basically be like running the car with no cat-back exhaust attached, which is basically the same as going out and buying the whole 3" system. as mentioned before I want my car to be quiet on the road, so that is why I dont want an actual full exhaust. Cops here are really anal about that.
KC and boundy3 are both right. It doesn't matter that the cutout is behind a cat, the noise level and exiting positing are both an issue. You may find an event that will allow it, but not here on LI, NY. And I believe the SCCA rules says that you're exhaust must pass local sound and emission laws to compete in street classes.
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Old 10-12-2006, 10:53 PM   #15
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i have flex's for sale. pm me if you're interested.
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Old 10-13-2006, 01:09 AM   #16
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where did you find those big sway bars?
more specifically the front
all I've been able to find for the wagon is 22mm adjustable
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Old 10-13-2006, 01:53 AM   #17
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Check out this thread for info on the KYB AGX GC8's on wagons...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...on+kyb+agx+gc8
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Old 10-13-2006, 02:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_poser View Post
where did you find those big sway bars?
more specifically the front
all I've been able to find for the wagon is 22mm adjustable

the front is an STI bar... I'm one of the few guys running it on a wagon. works if you use spherical endlinks which allow better fitment. Got it from JnJ Associates. http://www.jnjassociates.biz/

As for the cutout.... I was gonna do it at the end of the downpipe (which should be after the driver) or even closer to the muffler... there is a perfect point right where the pipe curves before the muffler that we can weld it in. I dont think it would be that loud. I ran the car w/out a muffler at an auto-x once and it sounded really good, but wasnt that loud. with a high flow cat i am sure it would sound similar, as the cat and turbo still muffle sound. Even if it doesnt add that much performance gain, it is always good to be able to hear the engine better just so you know where you are at in the rev band. the car is pretty quiet stock... but i think hearing the boxer rumble has some kind of positive psychological effect on me too.

I've heard some ass-loud cars locally, and if they are ok to run mine definitely would be... who knows, though, maybe the wrx would be really damn loud if i actually had a high flow cat instead. i'll have to try it.
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Old 10-13-2006, 08:50 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by chrisarella View Post
And I believe the SCCA rules says that you're exhaust must pass local sound and emission laws to compete in street classes.
Not really. The exhaust on any ST car has to be legal to the rules... (both the rulebook and event site... quieter is better!) not to the local laws.

However... the local/state laws come into play at inspection time or if you live in a state that cares about exhaust sound and you get pulled over (but only if you're going to drive the car on the road.) That has nothing to do with SCCA rules.

It's a balancing act; some states are more lenient than others. So in effect, a Cali WRX would have a harder time competing nationally if they 'had to' follow local rules vs a state without a care how loud a car is. It wouldn't be fair on a national rules level to say that you have to compete in a car thats set up to local laws... heck, up here in New England with events in a couple different states with different laws each, it would put a NH car at a bigger advantage over a MA car... since MA follows the CA emission standard. See what I'm getting at?

So no, a car doesn't have to be 'street legal' per the local laws to compete... but it's a good thing to attempt to keep the police happy.

--kC
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Old 10-13-2006, 08:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durmiente View Post
the front is an STI bar... I'm one of the few guys running it on a wagon. works if you use spherical endlinks which allow better fitment. Got it from JnJ Associates. http://www.jnjassociates.biz/

As for the cutout.... I was gonna do it at the end of the downpipe (which should be after the driver) or even closer to the muffler... there is a perfect point right where the pipe curves before the muffler that we can weld it in. I dont think it would be that loud. I ran the car w/out a muffler at an auto-x once and it sounded really good, but wasnt that loud. with a high flow cat i am sure it would sound similar, as the cat and turbo still muffle sound. Even if it doesnt add that much performance gain, it is always good to be able to hear the engine better just so you know where you are at in the rev band. the car is pretty quiet stock... but i think hearing the boxer rumble has some kind of positive psychological effect on me too.

I've heard some ass-loud cars locally, and if they are ok to run mine definitely would be... who knows, though, maybe the wrx would be really damn loud if i actually had a high flow cat instead. i'll have to try it.
SUggestion... just run a straight pipe out the rear instead of a turndown. A few extra bucks, and only a couple extra lbs at most... it really quiets it down further.

Many regions are losing sites due to sound... it's up to everyone to try and quiet it down if possible, even tho the rules say 'it's legal'.

Happy site owners and neighbors don't complain as much when people do their best to quiet exhaust sounds.

You're already proven that you're not building a car that's going to be fully setup... putting a pipe that exits out the back will not rob you of anything.

--kC
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:27 PM   #21
Durmiente
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yeah... well it will probably just be a cutout before the muffler like i originally intended... so it will exit pretty close to the rear, maybe a foot away.

i think ideally i could run a txs stealthback with a stock muffler and then just open the muffler up for races... the stealthback alone i think is filled with sound deadening material or something... so should be relatively "quiet" compare to other systems... of course that all means lots of money anyways.

this was just sort of a side project we were gonna do for fun... it is good to know it won't re-class me. its not really up there on my list of to dos anyways.

back to the essentials.

I priced rotas at $700 for a set on subydude (not sure if that includes shipping) plus you need the lugnuts which are $2.25 each (so $45 for a set). by comparison i can get some wheels off edgeracing.com for about $536 a set and I believe they include lugs and all mounting hardware IF you get tires in a package deal. shipping is about $112 if i recall correctly. seems like a better deal, but the rims are 20.2 lbs each like i mentioned earlier, when compared against the (lighter) rotas at ~17lbs each??? (i am looking at the 17x8s slipstreams btw).

there are 5zigens on edgeracing 17x8 17lbs for about $169 per wheel, putting them about $6/wheel cheaper than subydude's rates on the slipstreams. that is still too expensive for me... i just wish there was a way i could get these cheaper... oh well.

anyone think the 20lb wheel is worth it? 3lbs isnt that much, and wasnt sure how much of a difference it will really make...
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Old 10-14-2006, 06:02 PM   #22
Durmiente
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bump... i'd really like to know if you guys think about the weight of the wheels i am looking at currently, and if it matters...

the raze wheels are 17x8 et 48 and are 20.2 lbs and are $134 each

the 5zigens are 17x8 et 48 and are 17lbs and are $169 apiece. (on sale, usually $230)

The 5zigens are $35 more per corner and $140 more for a set.

Is saving 3 lbs per wheel worth $35 a corner? will i notice it?
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Old 10-14-2006, 09:16 PM   #23
tuskenraider
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Quote:
Is saving 3 lbs per wheel worth $35 a corner? will i notice it?
The 5Zigens are worth the extra coin. Good affordable wheel. You'll be saving weight in the best place and doing it right the first time. No one can say if you would notice it as it seems driver "butt dyno" dependant and you'd need to drive them back to back on the same tire to compare which most don't have the opportunity to do.
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:28 PM   #24
flyboymike
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Go for the wheels used. My Rotas, used, cost about as much as a set of new Rotas, but they included Bridgestone Potenza S-03 tires with about 80% treadlife remaining, a decent enough tire to get started on. It was like saving $400.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:46 AM   #25
Durmiente
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider View Post
The 5Zigens are worth the extra coin. Good affordable wheel. You'll be saving weight in the best place and doing it right the first time. No one can say if you would notice it as it seems driver "butt dyno" dependant and you'd need to drive them back to back on the same tire to compare which most don't have the opportunity to do.
sounds to me to not really matter then... it would be nice to get the lighter wheels but that is a lot more $$$.... I will have to give it some more thought though.

used would be great... but I would like to do it locally, never really bought something from someone on a forum before... and nothing on ebay, already checked
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