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Old 10-27-2006, 05:10 PM   #1
ALaDDiN
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Default Boost issues . .

Hey guys, I need some help . . sooo, here goes . .

This is for my 2002 WRX Sedan with the following performace related mods: TXS Stealthback, TXS Up-Pipe, Prodrive Axleback.

About 6 months ago, I reflashed my ECU with Cobb AP stage 2. Everything was working fine, except my boost wasn't as high as I have seen on other stage 2 cars. I undestand every car responds differently, so I started to research on what I could do. About a month ago, I ditched the Cobb AP and had a tuner buddy of mine hook me up via Open ECU tuning. While road tuning, my boost gauge read ~16.2 psi and I was loving the way my car pulled. However, the very next day, I was back to seeing the usual 14-14.5psi peak boost.
Now, I am stumped . .
What could be causing this? I do not think it is the tune . . What mod could help? I am trying to stay as cost effective as possible, so try to help if you can.

Thanks.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:29 AM   #2
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What was the difference between the days? There are boost correction maps that could be causing that if the atmospheric pressure dropped enough.

Have you seen the boost go back up to normal levels and then back down since this happened?

Also, could just be your gauge acting up. Should have your friend do some logs when it isn't showing full boost and see what values the ecu is seeing from its sensors.

If he started on a base Stage 2 map from osecuroms.org then maybe you should try tightening the wastegate. If you do this then watch boost very carefully to make sure you don't overshoot targets.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
What was the difference between the days? There are boost correction maps that could be causing that if the atmospheric pressure dropped enough.

Have you seen the boost go back up to normal levels and then back down since this happened?

Also, could just be your gauge acting up. Should have your friend do some logs when it isn't showing full boost and see what values the ecu is seeing from its sensors.

If he started on a base Stage 2 map from osecuroms.org then maybe you should try tightening the wastegate. If you do this then watch boost very carefully to make sure you don't overshoot targets.
I was contemplating tightening the wastegate, but I have heard some scary stories about that. What if I was to just go out and buy a boost controller, like the Performance Boost Controller from TXS for example? Would that do the trick?
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #4
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I had to tighten mine up to 6 turns to hit my target, but then again my target is a bit higher than an ave stg 2..
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Old 10-28-2006, 03:19 PM   #5
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i wouldnt throw a boost controller on the car. Our cars dont work well with them unless you have a custom tune.
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Old 10-28-2006, 05:22 PM   #6
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Keep the stock boost control, I had to tighten my wastegate up 2 full turns to hit targets on the cobb maps. I am still hitting targets after switching to open source though. As long as you watch boost carefully then it should be alright.

I would start with 2 turns, see what it does. And then back it off or tighten it up in 1/2 turns after that depending on if you are still too low or if you overshoot. It really isn't that bad, other than burning your hands adjusting it the second time after you warmed up the car

Try to stay away from resetting the ECU as you want the ecu to keep its learned data while adjusting the wastegate.
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Old 10-29-2006, 12:06 PM   #7
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i wouldnt throw a boost controller on the car. Our cars dont work well with them unless you have a custom tune.
http://www.turboxs.com/shop_prod.php?what_category=1

I was looking at the Hight Performance Boost Controller, the one for $135.

What exactly is it about boost controllers that our cars don't like? Wouldn't it be safer than the wastegate mod since you can't really "overshoot"?

Thanks.
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Old 10-29-2006, 02:47 PM   #8
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Boost controllers can make for dangerously lean AF ratios, especially at part throttle. You most certainly CAN overshoot your boost target with a MBC or EBC, I don't know where you got the impression that you couldn't.
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Old 10-29-2006, 06:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by supermarkus View Post
Boost controllers can make for dangerously lean AF ratios, especially at part throttle. You most certainly CAN overshoot your boost target with a MBC or EBC, I don't know where you got the impression that you couldn't.
I didn't really get it from anywhere, I just assumed it. As you can see, I do not know a lot about this so I am trying my best to learn. I guess I will look a little more into the wategate mod for my car.

Thanks.
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Old 10-30-2006, 04:29 PM   #10
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Christain from Cobb tuning wrote a pretty good guide to the stock boost management system somewhere. A search might find it. I highly recommend checking their forums out for Cobb specific tuning hints.
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermarkus View Post
Christain from Cobb tuning wrote a pretty good guide to the stock boost management system somewhere. A search might find it. I highly recommend checking their forums out for Cobb specific tuning hints.
Got it. Thanks!
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Old 11-04-2006, 09:29 PM   #12
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Default i need help too......

i just got my 06 sti...im still learing about the car.....i just want to know how mush boost is it in a stock car......and what is its max.....i know its bad to put a boost controller.....whats the best way to get more boost pls help
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:23 AM   #13
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^^^ Stock boost on a STI is 14.5 psi. Using a boost controller to turn up the boost is not recommended. Cheapest way to increase boost AND be safe about it is to buy the open port cable and flash on a Stage 1 map from osecuroms.org. This will run you less about $80 if you've already got a laptop.

It looks like the Stage 1 flash has a target of 16.8 psi of boost. If you put on a downpipe and flash stage 2, then the target is 18 psi.
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:18 PM   #14
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Here is a recent data log from the recent map my friend made me.

Code:
(RPM)	Abs	MAF	Ign	Knk	Rel	WG	FPmp	(AFR)
	PSI		Tmng	Crctn	PSI	DUTY		
2570	5.804	15.31	36	0	-8.561	1.18	33.33	14.7
2586	6.82	18.43	41	0	-7.545	2.35	33.33	14.81
2596	7.11	18.78	40	0	-7.255	3.14	33.33	14.59
2599	7.545	20.02	40	0	-6.82	3.14	33.33	14.7
2609	7.98	22.76	39	0	-6.094	5.88	33.33	14.59
2649	9.722	29.91	36	0	-4.643	10.59	33.33	14.59
2652	11.027	32.02	35	0	-3.337	13.33	33.33	14.47
2678	11.898	36.03	34	0	-2.467	14.51	33.33	14.36
2710	15.525	50.89	26	4	1.161	23.92	66.67	13.55
2750	16.976	55.7	20	5	3.192	33.33	100	15.04
2794	18.718	62.76	19	4	4.353	39.61	100	12.29
2859	20.604	71.42	16	5	6.239	49.02	100	12.98
2914	21.91	76.55	14	5	7.545	55.29	100	11.83
2976	23.796	85.91	13	5	9.431	64.71	100	12.29
3031	25.247	95.16	11	5	11.318	74.12	100	11.83
3125	27.133	100.99	11	5	12.769	80.39	100	11.37
3230	28.294	106.7	10	4	13.929	81.18	100	11.25
3289	28.584	106.69	10	4	14.22	81.18	100	11.25
3351	28.875	109.57	10	4	14.51	81.18	100	11.25
3421	28.875	112.49	10	4	14.51	81.18	100	11.25
3501	28.875	118.19	10	4	14.51	81.18	100	11.25
3625	28.729	121.4	9	4	14.365	81.18	100	11.25
3657	28.875	126.59	10	4	14.51	81.18	100	11.25
3771	28.875	129.63	11	4	14.51	81.18	100	11.25
3797	29.02	133.84	11	4	14.655	81.18	100	11.25
3902	29.165	137.62	12	4	14.8	81.18	100	11.25
3979	29.165	141.18	12	4	14.8	81.18	100	11.25
4074	29.165	140.89	13	4	14.8	81.18	100	11.25
4144	29.165	142.37	12	4	14.8	81.18	100	11.25
4225	29.02	147.19	13	4	14.655	80.78	100	11.25
4345	29.02	151.5	12	4	14.655	80.78	100	11.25
4360	29.02	155	13	4	14.655	80.78	100	11.25
4467	29.02	160.09	14	4	14.655	80.78	100	11.25
4573	29.165	160.41	14	4	14.8	80.78	100	11.25
4632	29.165	165.3	15	5	14.8	80.78	100	11.25
4729	29.165	164.96	15	5	14.8	80.78	100	11.25
4789	29.165	170.08	15	5	14.8	80.78	100	11.25
4899	29.02	168.71	15	5	14.655	80.78	100	11.25
4934	29.02	174.86	17	5	14.655	80.78	100	11.25
5074	28.875	178.27	18	4	14.51	80.78	100	11.25
5116	28.729	180.36	19	4	14.365	80.78	100	11.25
5237	28.729	181.1	19	4	14.365	80.78	100	11.25
5315	28.729	185.82	20	4	14.365	80.78	100	11.25
5357	28.584	187.28	20	4	14.22	80.78	100	11.25
5478	28.439	190.2	20	4	14.075	80.78	100	11.25
5486	28.294	195.67	20	5	13.929	80.78	100	11.25
5564	28.149	196.04	20	5	13.784	80.78	100	11.25
5695	27.859	194.94	19	5	13.494	80.78	100	11.25
5774	27.859	195.67	19	4	13.494	80.39	100	11.25
5827	27.714	196.04	19	4	13.349	80.39	100	11.25
5901	23.651	169.2	21	0	9.286	16.47	100	11.37
PLEASE DO LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK . .

Thanks

Last edited by ALaDDiN; 11-09-2006 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 11-09-2006, 04:14 PM   #15
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First off, what gear was that log in?

I am trying to disect that log, and I've come up with some ideas. I'll start off and say that I am still learning the boost control system.

But from what I see the WGDC was at 81.18 and then it drops .40 shortly after hitting 14.8 psi of boost the first time. Your atmospheric pressure seems to have been at 14.365 psi so that map should be ok.

Ideas I have:
1. Target boost might not be as high as you think, seems to me the ecu is targeting 14.6 psi
2. The wastegate compensation maps might need work, I am not sure if your friend made any adjustments but he could have accidently put negative values in the positive correction. This would lower boost rather than raise it.

I know the OSECU Stage 2 rom has much higher max wastegate duty cycles (near 90%) to get up to a target of 17.4 psi of boost. Either way your boost seems low even for that duty cycle.

Is it possible to get your friend to give us a screenshot of the Target Boost, Max Wastegate, and both Wastegate compensation maps? I'll try to get a log this weekend of the 04 WRX to give a comparison to yours.
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Old 11-09-2006, 04:30 PM   #16
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This pull was in 3rd gear, and the target boost, from what I remember, was set at 16.5psi.

I was actually thinking about picking up a stg2 map from OSECU, but their maps are all 91oct. Any idea how my car would react to that?

I will stop by my friends shop this weekend or early next week to get those screenshots for you.

BTW, by looking at that log, would you say I need to adjust my WasteGate Arm???
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Old 11-09-2006, 05:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALaDDiN
This pull was in 3rd gear, and the target boost, from what I remember, was set at 16.5psi.

I was actually thinking about picking up a stg2 map from OSECU, but their maps are all 91oct. Any idea how my car would react to that?

I will stop by my friends shop this weekend or early next week to get those screenshots for you.

BTW, by looking at that log, would you say I need to adjust my WasteGate Arm???
Well, I have a OSECU Stage 2 map loaded on the 04, it is a 91 octane map but we run 92 octane on it. I will eventually lean it out alittle and slightly more timing to get it tuned for 92 octane. The OSECU base maps are a great place to start from.

I can't really tell from that log if you have to adjust your wastegate arm, because I am running the OSECU Stage 2 map and it has a max wastegate duty cycle of nearly 90% to get to target boost and you are way below that number. But I do need to get a log of what the actual duty cycle is to compare to yours.

I have flashed 3 seperate cars with the OSECU Stage 2 basemaps and they all reacted differently, the 04 WRX Auto reached target boost in only 3 pulls. The 02 WRX Auto took alittle bit of tightening of the wastegate to hit target. The 02 WRX Manual would not hit target boost even with the wastegate tightened nearly all the way (though boost response was greatly improved , with no boost spiking either). I was supposed to retune the boost maps on the 02 WRX manual this weekend but the owner will be putting on a VF39 soon so I am preparing to tune for that instead.
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:46 PM   #18
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I'm no expert but your knock correction values seem a bit low to me given your timing, starting around 3200 RPMs. I've seen maps that have much better timing on 93 oct. Are you running on 93? You might be running too hot and the ECU is pulling timing. Try bumping your AFR lower gradually as you get closer to redline which will keep you cooler and give you better timing, less knock.

Also, your WGDC should be higher. Try to gradually adjust it higher and see if you start getting closer to your target boost.

Did your friend adjust Turbo dynamics or boost compensation maps? I don't think you will need to based on your atmospheric pressure.
The stock ECU is very powerful and will give you lots of options to get you to the right place. I would hold off on the other controller.
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:33 AM   #19
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Master2192, do try to log a 3rd gear pull on your stage2 wrx if you have time. I am very interested in seeing how your tune is.

Ziggyrama, I appreciate your previous suggestions and hope you can clarify a bit more for me . . .

So basically I could (A) purchase an OSECU stg2 map, or (B) tweak my current tune a little. I just have a couple questions . . .

About how low should I drop the AFR's around redline, and how rapidly should they be dropped? ?

So making my car run richer and richer as revs get closer to redline should fix both the knock AND the ignition timing?

A WGDC of ~90% and a target boost of about 16.5 - 17psi is good for a stage2 wrx . . right?



Thanks a bunch for helping a NooB learn this stuff.
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:46 AM   #20
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No problemo. Ok, so for your questions:

1. You can start around mid 11s for AFR around 3000 which is where you are right now. Now, taper your AFR gradually down to lower 10s as you approach 6500 RPMs. So, around 5500, you want to be around 10.5. This is starting point. Once you adjust your AFRs, do another data log and check your timing and know correction again. They should improve. You can then fine tune and correct base don your judgement. Also, look at your injector duty cycle to see how close you are to maxing them out. You're probably safe but it's just a good idea to check.

2. Running richer means running cooler so your EGTs will be lower. This should allow you to advance your timing which will give you more power. If you run too hot, your ECU will pull timing. This becomes more critical as you climb through your RPMs.

3. Yup, 90% is about right with 16-17 psi. Beyond that, the stock turbo becomes more and more inneficient. If you go higher, things start to get messy.
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Old 11-12-2006, 05:28 PM   #21
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Alright, here is part of a log of 3rd gear. This car is an auto so that is why the rpms start so high. See how wastegate duty cycle is at low 90s-high 80s?

Code:
(RPM)	Coolant Temp	(g/s)	IAT (F)	Timing (BTDC)	KC (BTDC)	Boost (PSI)	(AFR)	WDC (%)
4507	188.6	175.56	71.6	7	0	16.831	11.25	90.2
4576	188.6	174.52	71.6	7	0	16.831	11.25	90.98
4576	188.6	175.9	69.8	7	0	16.831	11.25	90.98
4604	188.6	176.24	69.8	7	0	16.686	11.25	90.98
4624	188.6	176.24	69.8	8	0	16.831	11.25	91.37
4667	188.6	178.65	68	8	0	16.831	11.25	91.37
4688	188.6	178.99	68	9	0	16.831	11.25	91.37
4735	188.6	183.58	68	10	2	16.831	11.25	91.37
4759	188.6	185.81	68	10	2	16.831	11.25	91.76
4808	188.6	184.69	68	11	2	16.686	11.25	91.37
4836	188.6	185.43	66.2	11	2	16.831	11.25	91.37
4902	188.6	186.54	66.2	11	2	16.686	11.25	90.2
4918	188.6	190.25	66.2	11	1	16.686	11.25	89.8
4944	188.6	191.36	66.2	12	1	16.686	11.25	89.8
5000	188.6	192.11	66.2	12	1	16.686	11.25	89.8
5064	188.6	192.11	66.2	12	1	16.541	11.25	89.02
5050	188.6	195.81	66.2	13	1	16.396	11.25	89.02
5116	188.6	196.55	64.4	12	1	16.396	11.25	89.02
5151	188.6	197.3	64.4	13	1	16.251	11.25	88.63
5183	188.6	200.29	64.4	13	1	16.251	11.25	88.24
5187	188.6	201.05	64.4	14	1	16.251	11.25	87.06
5248	188.6	201.43	64.4	15	2	16.106	11.25	87.06
5256	188.6	202.62	64.4	15	2	16.106	11.25	87.06
5289	188.6	206.19	64.4	15	2	15.961	11.25	87.06
5349	188.6	205	64.4	15	2	16.106	11.25	87.06
5353	188.6	207.78	64.4	15	2	15.961	11.25	87.06
5392	188.6	207.39	64.4	15	2	15.961	11.25	87.06
5454	188.6	207.39	64.4	15	2	15.961	11.25	87.06
5474	188.6	208.58	62.6	15	2	15.961	11.25	87.06
5506	188.6	208.58	62.6	15	2	15.816	11.25	87.06
5289	188.6	91.21	62.6	16	-3	4.498	11.25	41.18
5169	188.6	17.44	62.6	12	0	-8.271	11.25	0
5040	188.6	21.29	62.6	12	0	-9.722	12.06	0
5003	188.6	19.13	62.6	12	0	-10.012	19.98	0
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