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Old 11-10-2006, 12:46 AM   #26
AcquaCow
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Originally Posted by MorallyBass View Post
I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last couple of days.

My roommate has similarly designed Focal tweets and he's religious about his mounting in the sail panels. I'm quite happy with the soundstage produced with the stock locations (given proper aiming), which seems to sit right about the center of my dash (with time correction).

When I sit in his car, the sail panels seem to produce a much brighter sound, even with his -6db of attenuation on them. I'm not a big fan from that little bit of anecdotal evidence. I may experiment with placement of my own tweeters, but I'm more than a little skeptical.

Any of you in the Bedford/Waltham area willing to demo the joys of your sail panel install?
I had focal tweeters on my sail panels before my current setup and I can say that the focals are just BRIGHT all around...doesn't matter where you put them.

Inverting the phase on the focal tweeters helps soften them a bit, but not enough for me.

I had to swap them out for silk dome tweeters instead.

I don't think it's the location that's making them sound bright to you. The sail panels are physically farther away from your head than the stock locations...if anything, they should sound LESS bright there.

My focals in the stock locations were just painful to listen to.

-- Dave
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Old 11-10-2006, 09:41 AM   #27
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Yeah, Focal's are just too damn bright sounding. Of the few sets I've listened too I kept thinking "where's the banshee?"
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:14 PM   #28
MorallyBass
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I spent the lunch break doing a little more tweaking on the setup, lowered my crossover points for the fronts/sub down to about 65-70hz, very happy. I also dialed in another db of attenuation on the tweeters, for a total of -4db right now in the stock locations. I am loving the way this sounds.

After listening to my friend's sail panel setup, I'm going to call BS on Sail Panel being better than stock unless one of you can prove otherwise.
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:24 PM   #29
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What kind of proof do you want? Unless you're comparing the same speakers, how can you tell one setup from another?

Unless you listen to NPR all day, I don't see any advantages to the stock location.
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:30 PM   #30
MorallyBass
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Maybe we'll just have to chaulk it up to personal preference...

My roommate has a set of Focal 165KFs, with tweeters on the sail panels, I'm running 165K2Ps in the stock location. Not exactly apples to apples, but the tweets are very similar.
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:43 PM   #31
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We had a good discussion here a while ago about speaker pathlengths and how having the tweeters 2x closer to your head than the woofers masks frequencies from the woofers, screws with the sound stage, and other important things.

I'll find it later when I get my car back on the ground.

-- Dave
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:33 PM   #32
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Quote:
After listening to my friend's sail panel setup, I'm going to call BS on Sail Panel being better than stock unless one of you can prove otherwise.
Science?

Loudness is directly based off distance. A closer speaker will be louder even though it's outputing the same overall loudness as the further speaker.

-compensation:
physical: woofers and tweeters placed at the same distance or appropriate for their sensitivity / software-electronic: attenuation

Generally, a passive crossover will have some tweeter level settings, say +2dB, 0dB, -2dB to allow you some attenuation control of the tweeter loudness to compensate for the twetter being too close or too far or potentially the tweeter having too high or too low of a sensitivity compared to the woofer. In an active setup, the user has individual control of each woofer and tweeter volume level, offering the greatest control.



Sound waves travel at the speed of sound. A closer speaker will get to you first and the audio from a farther away speaker will reach you at a noticably later time. The farther the difference, the greater out of sync the speakers are.

-compensation:
physical: speakers set at the same distance from the user / software: time alignment

The only ways to get the sound from all the speakers to your ears at the same time is to physically place them at the same distance from you or to compensate for a closer distance by delaying the output using time alignment software.


Speakers have a dispersion pattern that radiates the sound outward. Top end frequencies get lost as the speaker becomes more off-axis. This is based off the speaker's diameter and the angle off-axis as well as cone shape and any other physical attributes. A speaker very off-axis will have a greatly different upper frequency response of a very on-axis speaker.

-compensation:
physical: aiming the speakers so that the on/off-axis angles are about the same for each speaker / software: EQing to counteract the upper frequency loss, proper x-over points to keep speakers of a certain size outside of the "loss" upper frequency range(dependent on size)
To have both the left and right speakers sound the same, you need to have both aimed with about the same amount of off-axis angle. HUs with individual L and R EQing can individually compensate for different off-axis angles. The loss point is specific to the speaker's diameter, ex. a 6.5" woofer starts to drop off at 1kHz. Below this point, there is little frequency response change on or off axis. However, most play up to 2kHz or even 3kHz, so off-axis influence can be major. This applies to both woofers and tweeters as a 1" tweeter will start to lose top end form being off-axis at about 6500Hz. The dome shape of most tweeters help though as it promotes a dispersed pattern. It's why large domed dust caps and phase plugs on larger woofers help extend top end usability.
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Old 11-10-2006, 06:50 PM   #33
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^^^ Excellent post.

Not even going to bother looking up the old one now

-- Dave
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:24 PM   #34
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For mounting in the sail panels, the tweeters should be pointing at eachother?

Have a set of Polk db6501 components up front with the tweeters mounted in the stock location. Going to be putting in an amp soon and while Im in there, curious to know what would be a more optimal position.

These tweeters are bright. Turned them down to -3db to help with harsh sounds.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:51 PM   #35
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Above 2kHz the main way your ears localize is by relative intensity... pointing them across the car is one way to help place the left channel off-axis while placing the right speaker on-axis. Try it, it might work for you.
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:10 PM   #36
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I might try it. On the driver's side though, wouldnt the tweeter be aimed directly at the 'hump' over the instrument cluster. Just thought that might cause some nasty reflections.
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:45 PM   #37
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Then try up towards the dome light
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