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Old 11-07-2006, 01:30 PM   #1
f4phantomii
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Default The DIY Tune....Next Steps?

OK....looks like the fine folks working on the various open source projects for logging, tuning, and flashing the ECU are really beginning to mature the tools. Lots of ECU definitions contributed and added.

The documentation is beginning to catch up, with at least one line descriptions of the various maps and their respective functions available.

And at long last, some kind soul(s) have put together some "community" Stage 1 and Stage 2 maps for a lot of the models and these have supposedly been tested, adjusted, and refined to offer a starting point for the novice.

I forsee a tidal wave of owners on the horizon about to step into the world of the DIY tune.

This is where I see a need for the next steps in the documentation. We've suddenly (and generously) been given the ability to inexpensively tune our cars but there seems to be a lack of follow through afterwards.

I guess what I'm looking for is some guidance from far more experienced folks on what to look for after a reflash or when making adjustments. I'd like to see an addition to the various guides and documentation that, at least initially, correspond with the community Stage 1 and Stage 2 maps for each vehicle type.

For example, here's how the process would go in my mind:
  1. In stock condtion, begin data logging over several runs, ideally with differing weather conditions and at different times of day. Some recommendations on which conditions would be good boundaries would be ideal. (e.g. Hot & Wet, Cold & Dry, Hot & Dry, and Cold & Wet).
  2. Download stock ECU code and store appropriately for safekeeping.
  3. Locate most updated ECU definition for your vehicle, or your desired Stage map, and flash your ECU.
  4. Allow ECU to adjust to new maps. Resume data logging over several runs, again in varied conditions if possible.
  5. Compare data log results with "expected" results and adjust map as required for a "safe" tune.

The last step is the kicker. I've not found any place that documents what a person should look for in the data logs that might be cause for concern. I guess it would be nice if there was just a simplified list that said something like:

"Make sure EGT's don't rise above XXXX, and look for knock correction or timing pull in these areas."

Seems like there should be a relatively quick safety checklist to run through to verify nothing is seriously amiss.

Does such a thing already exist and I've just not found it yet? Or is this indeed one of the next areas that needs to be expanded into?

-Michael
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:38 AM   #2
MPREZD
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i really need to learn more about this open ecu stuff!
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:35 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f4phantomii View Post
I guess it would be nice if there was just a simplified list that said something like:

"Make sure EGT's don't rise above XXXX, and look for knock correction or timing pull in these areas."
Being new to DIY tunes I'd like something like this as well. Since I just started I want to be conservative. A beginner checklist would be really nice for peace of mind but it depends on who's giving the advice.

For example, what is a 'safe' EGT to run and when should you start worrying?
When worrying about detonation, is the KC or IAM number more important?
If EGT is ok and there are no KC numbers and the IAM figure stays at it's highest then does that mean the A/F can be leaned out or the timing advanced? And with the choice of the two which one should be modified first?
Perhaps we can have a sticky post (or an addition to Unibomber's FAQ) with answers to simple questions or nuggets of wisdom can be posted.

(I'm having fun with my conservatively edited stage 1 map!)
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Old 12-05-2006, 10:17 PM   #4
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Subscribed.

I'm very interested in this, but quite scared to touch it. I love the idea of the ease of accessport... but the 700 bones for v2 (which is what I would want to buy) is a bit steep.
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Old 12-06-2006, 01:15 AM   #5
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Tuning takes a LOT of time. You need to analyse a TON of information. Best way to start is to examine other maps, test them, datalog, do small changes, and compare logs. Be prepareed to spend weeks/months doing this. Testing also needs to be done in a safe environment, i.e. not doing 3rd gear pulls on your local street. LOTS of time.

The thing is, tuning is an art form really, thats why there is no step by step guide anywhere. Most tuners spend a LOT of time data logging and testing small changes over a long period of time before releasing a tune or using that as a new basemap. Throw in a mix of different manufacturers parts, different gas, altitude, temperature, service history, etc etc etc and the whole game is changed again. You can even get a different data variations, with the same setup, on different days, so this is where experience comes into play.
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Old 12-06-2006, 02:02 AM   #6
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what we need is a GT5 or someother racing simulation where we can tune the cars ourselves. I have learned so much from tweaking and testing suspension and whatnot from the game, it would be incredible if I could learn how to tune a car to the same extent from a game or simulation like that. Just something to where we can tweak and learn and not have to worry about blowing up my car or getting in trouble with the local authorities.
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:35 PM   #7
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subscirbed. also very interested in this and cant seem to find the info im looking for anywhere on the net.
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:53 AM   #8
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I think step 3 needs to be broken down into several parts and needs another step. It should go something like this:

3. Locate most updated ECU definition for your vehicle, or your desired Stage map
4. Review the map to make sure it looks right to you
5. Flash your ECU.

I added step 4 because you really should review anything that goes on your car. The maps you download were tuned on another car so they are only guaranteed for that car. Chances are that the variations between cars are small but you should really overview someone else's map first before putting it on.

As far as fine tuning as last step, there are some general guidelines as to how one should proceed with fine tuning. Ofcourse, some may dispute this order but I believe this is the correct and safe way to tune on the road:

1. Establish safe fueling and timing. Keep the mixtures rich and timing relatively low. If you're using someone else's map that has been tuned, you could still do this to be safe since your attention will be elsewhere at first.

2. Establish your boost. Set your target boost across the RPM range. Adjust your wastegate duty cycles to match your target boost. If you're using a tuned map already, review the maps and make sure that they make sense to you.

3. Log the car in partial throttle and WOT, review the logs and look for spikes and oscillations. Keep an eye on EGTs although they should not be an issue at this point. If you have them, adjust your maps to compensate. This is where experience and instincts come in a bit. You have to adjust based on your judgment. Drive again and repeat until you are satisfied.

4. Establish fueling. Go through your fueling map and dial the numbers in where you think you should be. This is where everybody is all over the place. Generally, most do mid to high 10s at WOT and high loads and smooth out the numbers from there. Log the car and watch the EGTs. If you lean this out, they will probably climb and can do so rapidly. This is where your WBO2 is critical to get it right. You can't rely on the stock O2 sensor. Drive the car and record numbers. Shoot for a smooth curve. Check to see what the mixture is vs. what you dial in in the map and adjust accordingly. Drive and repeat until you got the fueling right.

5. Drive the car and record timing. Normalizing the KC table helps a lot in spotting trouble areas when reviewing the logs. This is optional but I found it extremely useful. Log the IAM and KC and adjust the table where the ECU is pulling timing. Once you eliminate knock, raise the timing where you think ECU is happy. If you start knocking, lower it back down again. Again, watch your EGTs closely. Raising timing will raise your EGTs most of the time. Drive the car and repeat until you feel satisfied with the timing.

These steps are a good way to start. There's a bunch of other things that go along with them but those are the basics. By other things, there are compensation tables that you need to be aware of and they will be of some importance at every step you do, turbo dynamics, tip in enrichment, atmospheric pressure compensation, etc. There are also closed loop tables but that's another story. Feel free to comment.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:05 AM   #9
JustinS STi
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This is a topic I'm very interested in as well. For me the first hurdle is learning the basic logic behind how all the maps inter-operate. Scoobypedia is a good start:

http://scoobypedia.co.uk/index.php/K...ECUTuningGuide

and the Enginuity forum is a good place to discuss:

http://www.enginuity.org/viewforum.php?f=15

I think for a lot of the basic concepts we can look outside the Subaru world, too. Besides the Tactrix fun I've been having with my STi and other local Subies, I'm contemplating a MegaSquirt alpha-N setup on my Mustang.

Here are some books I'm looking at:
http://www.amazon.com/Induction-Perf...e=UTF8&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/Street-Turboch...e=UTF8&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-...e=UTF8&s=books

Here are some tuning guides I've found in different places:
MegaSquirt
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtabcon.htm
Holley Commander EFI
http://www.holley.com/data/Products/...99R10149-7.pdf
LM-1 tuning
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/Stan2.php

If you guys know of others please share! Also email lists, nntp groups, etc...

Justin
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:57 AM   #10
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the biggest hurdle ive had with tuning and understanding my datalogs are the numbers. What exactly are good numbers to have for certain aspects of the engine? what kind of timing at what points, where should my KC be, so on and so forth. I think when I understand that, then I can start working on the basics for tuning. If anyone has any place to read up on those, I would be exstatic. I dont want to just start asking if theres somewhere I can find out on my own first.
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Old 12-12-2006, 09:07 PM   #11
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subscribed!

I actually just had a local guy upload an OS map on my car on sunday. It runs great. I would love to be able to do this myself. The links above that Justins STi posted look promising. No time to read right now, though. will do later for sure.

-joel
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:03 AM   #12
JustinS STi
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Here is Cobb's tuning guide:
http://tinyurl.com/sszbj

and their writeup of how boost control works:
http://tinyurl.com/sl8kr

Justin
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:25 PM   #13
quazimoto
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This is a pretty good book and includes most current EM systems..
http://www.themotorbookstore.com/engine1.html
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Old 12-15-2006, 01:30 PM   #14
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Subscribed as well. I'm running a Cobb vf39 map on my 06 right now, but I'm seriously considering giving up on Cobb and going OpenEcu. I want to log for awhile and see how the car is measuring up before I really even start looking at the maps and I'm curious what fields I need to be logging?
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:12 PM   #15
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You should be logging engine load, rpm, IAM, WGDC, relative manifold pressure (psi), KC, total timing, and TPS at a minimum.

Load is based on MAF vs RPM
All fueling and timing are based on load vs RPM
Boost is TPS vs RPM

Open/closed loop delays seem like they are pretty good from the factory on the 06s. You will probably notice that your IAM is maxed out and that you're running very rich. This is normal on just about all "off the shelf" maps because of their application in so many different setups.
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Old 12-21-2006, 04:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gethin View Post

The thing is, tuning is an art form really, thats why there is no step by step guide anywhere.
Sorry this just annoys me. It is not an art form, it is science.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:54 AM   #17
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I agree, it is a science. Results can be measured! That alone plants tuning cars firmly in a scientific realm. There are right and wrong approaches and results. There are clear goals and metrics to be set. There are clear trade-offs. There is plenty of scientific and mathematical background available.

"Art" seems to be a word used by those who fiddle and use trial and error to tune cars without understanding what is actually going on. You can tell there are two different mindsets and/or ability levels out there for sure. There are those who didn't "get it" in science class.

Tuning a car is an engineering discipline, not a liberal arts discipline. The approach should be planned, results should be predicted, results are measured. The method and approach itself should be scientific. Predict, record, adjust, fix your model.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:09 AM   #18
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sweet thread
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:28 AM   #19
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Subscribed. Did a nice stage 1 today with a flash from enginuity . Simple as hell. I used a fellow members cable but I think Im gonna purchase my own. DIY tunes FTW!!!!
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Old 04-01-2007, 12:49 PM   #20
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what map did you go with? Have you logged it?
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:44 PM   #21
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Then feel free to write a step by step guide


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoby View Post
Sorry this just annoys me. It is not an art form, it is science.
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:50 PM   #22
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If it's a simple a+b+c=d then why do so many cars get broken during tuning even by experienced professional tuners? I agree that of course that most of it is measuring, recording and analysing data in a scientific manner but surely there is some feeling in there too? Dont you think even the most experienced tuners say sometimes "well let's just try this 'insert tweak here' and see what happens" ?

After all, cars are tuned by humans, not robots?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
I agree, it is a science. Results can be measured! That alone plants tuning cars firmly in a scientific realm. There are right and wrong approaches and results. There are clear goals and metrics to be set. There are clear trade-offs. There is plenty of scientific and mathematical background available.

"Art" seems to be a word used by those who fiddle and use trial and error to tune cars without understanding what is actually going on. You can tell there are two different mindsets and/or ability levels out there for sure. There are those who didn't "get it" in science class.

Tuning a car is an engineering discipline, not a liberal arts discipline. The approach should be planned, results should be predicted, results are measured. The method and approach itself should be scientific. Predict, record, adjust, fix your model.
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:29 PM   #23
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Perhaps I'd better explain myself by saying you should have some reasonable expectation going in what is going to happen. If you change a part, or a major part of a major table, you should perhaps predict how that is going to interact. You should have a goal going in as to what to keep track of in outcome.

That should keep you busy enough that you're not going on "gut instinct" or "feel" or whatever.

I don't see any room left over to call it art.
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:29 PM   #24
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Maybe i'm using "art" in some funny way to express the skill in the mastery of a medium (tuning the ecu)

That's my excuse anyway! haha!
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:14 PM   #25
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An important step is to download the most recent ROM version or somebody else's "great base map" (buyer beware), then COMPARE it to your own saved base (stock) map. You need to identify and understand the changes from your baseline (stock) map.

You really need to datalog, have access to a wideband O2 sensor and EGT to do a good job of self tuning.

I really like Jeff's UTI program for datalogging (with UTEC) and figuring out fueling. Here is a great online charting program for folks creating cvs files through Enginuity or EcuExplorer:
http://www.waygate.net/plotter/

Jeff has a beta version of his own Log Analyzer program available on his web site. Unfortunately, it times out in a few minutes, making it impossible for me to evaluate if it is more useful than the free online charting tool above.
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