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Old 11-07-2006, 05:23 PM   #1
EvolvedAK
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Lightbulb The Big bang/evolution, intelligent design, ect debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post
Oh boy, I think we need a new thread lol
Ask and you shall receieve my good friend. I like these kind of discussion public views and such is interesting. Were all friends here and should have a good rounded discussion. Anyways lets continue on, now with a designated thread.

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Originally Posted by 03bluwrx View Post
i still think that all schools should teach both concepts, evolution/creation.. and let the students make thier own opinions on which one happened...the only problem with this that i can see is finding a teacher who isnt biased towards either one :/


that and stupid ppl and organizations getting involved... but that happens already as it stands, so that wouldnt be anything new.


god forbid a student/child/teenager form thier own opinion.
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
thank you, scott. well said.
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Originally Posted by Ralph Swan View Post
Just to clarify no one is looking to teach "Creationism "rather" than Evolution", the argument is whether or not to offer Creationism "in addition" to Evlolution.
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Originally Posted by Danfd View Post
First of all, Creation is a Christian belief not a scientific one, The Public schools in this counry are not christian schools. So why would you teach christian beliefs in them? If you want, have them teach Evolution, and emphisis that it is a theory, and not fact (which is absolutly rediculous, you might as well tell me gravity isnt proven, because it too is a theory.) If you are going to teach one religions beliefs, you damn well better teach all the others too. Public schools and Religion should be absolutly seperate, Childern should never, NEVER be tought that any one religious belief is factual in any way. if you want your kids to learn Creationism then send them to church or to a chrisitian school, Public schools are no place to be teaching christianity, not only because it's unconstitutional but because not everyone is a christian and should never be forced to learn christian beliefs portrayed in a manner which would make them believe it is factually based in any way.

I mean what's next, teaching that the world is only 6000 years old in geology class?
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Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post
What they should do is have specific classes in high school on different religions, it is your option to take one. I took a Greek Mythology class in HS, it was pretty cool and interesting to learn their beliefs. Otherwise I agree that if you teach one you have to teach them all.
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Originally Posted by Danfd View Post
and that would be totaly fine, but that is completly differnt than teaching creationism in science class
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
sorry, but many people believe creationism as a scientific theory too. science hasn't disproven this "theory" nor has it disproven "evolution." how can one say that neither could happen?

you cannot say that just because it is a public school you should not teach anything that may have some sort of ties to Christianity or the Bible? then we shouldn't learn about US history or any other history for that matter. if we want a more well rounded education, then teach it ALL, not just what you feel is science. it's no different than people screaming to ONLY teach creationism in the public schools. let kids make their own decision.

sorry, but i find most of your posts to be quite offensive. i don't care for people who scream about diversity then ridicule others for their beliefs. you don't see me forcing my religious or politcal beliefs on you, basicly eluding that because you don't agree with me you are somehow stupid. how could you POSSIBLY believe something other than what i do?? *gasp* you are entitled to your opinions just like i am. do NOT tell me that because i believe something other than what you feel is "science" or factual based theories, that somehow i am intellectually inferior to you. science is just that: theories. the great thing about it is that we learn new things every day, some things that are disproven while others just create more questions.

sorry, but your posts rub me the wrong way...
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
creationism is a scientific theory. whether you agree with it or not does not change that it is still a theory.

however, this thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with creationism vs evolution or creationism as a scientific theory. so how on earth did we even get to this discussion??

oh right! your comment:
"anyone who wants to teach Creationism rather than Evolution in public schools.... should not be taken seriously."

thank you for "taking it THERE."
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Originally Posted by Danfd View Post
umm what scientific evidence is there that supports creationism? and you're telling me you arint forcing your religious beliefs on me, yet you are in favor of teaching CHRISTIAN teachings in a public school... do you not see the hypocracy here? You can tell me creationism is real all you want, but dont try and say it's science or has anything to do with science, and WTF does the history of the U.S. have anything to do with anything in this topic? I can and I will say that nothing in the Public schools should be tought from a christian belief.

Are you saying that every muslim, every buddhist, every hindu and the countless other religious beliefs that are represented by children in public schools should just be taught some other religions scripture just because there are more christians in america? I never once ridiculed you for your beliefs, go believe what ever the hell you want, You can believe that the world is flat and is the center of the universe for all I care, but dont try and bring your BELIEFS into a scientific class. Creationism is in no way a scientific theory, even the pope would not try and argue that point. It really doesnt matter how many "people believe creationism as a scientific theory too." It definitaly does not make it in anyway a valid or legitiment thing to be teaching in a classroom. Do you know the meaning of "Scientific Theory?" it requires a hell of a lot more than just some one saying they think thats how it works. School is no place to be teaching unfounded beliefs as facts. If there was any scientific evidence besides blind faith that supported it in ANY way I would be all about teaching it as another possibility, but there is not. Therefore it is nothing more than an unfounded belief based of faith alone, which has absolutly no buisness being tought in any way as related to facts.

all in all it makes me sad and a little frightened to see people who seem to think christianity is the only true belief and everything else should be shoved aside for it's sake.
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
i am not FORCING anyone. why is it that you are so afraid to teach ALL aspects of science?? how is creationism any different from being taught the Big Bang Theory? or Evolution? stop name throwing and pointing fingers.

again, just because i disagree with your point of view, you are going to attack me? right... but you're not forcing YOUR beliefs on me? i've never called you names or said you were somehow unintelligent. i just do not care for your tactics of name calling. believe what you will just as i will do likewise. there is no need for you to get hostile.
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Originally Posted by Danfd View Post
I'm lost as to where I called you any names?

Just for sanity's sake, I'm just going to recommend you look up what science is, and what a scientific theory includes. As well as what Theology is. I believe you are mistaking and blending a little bit here.
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
no, i would disagree. however, again, you are entitled to your opinions just as i am. and as for name calling, basicly, you just like to elude that anyone who believes in creationism or wants to offer it as a POSSIBLE theory should not be taken seriously. i'm sorry, not sure what that means to you, but in context school, it would be a negative remark. you don't have to actually say "you are an idiot" to understand what you're meaning by your previous remark.
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Originally Posted by Danfd View Post
ok a Scientific Theory. "
As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.

Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.

A fact is something that is supported by unmistakeable evidence. For example, the Grand Canyon cuts through layers of different kinds of rock, such as the Coconino sandstone, Hermit shale, and Redwall limestone. These rock layers often contain fossils that are found only in certain layers. Those are the facts."

A Theological Belief in no way falls under this, simply because there are no facts that back it up. Therefore it is NOT Science, True or False, it simply does not fall into the realm of scientific theories.
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Originally Posted by Ralph Swan View Post
I would agree that this needs it's own thread if it is to continue and some very interesting points.

With that said both sides have "scientist" that have hard findings to support their side... whether you believe in the "Big Bang/Evolutionary Theory" or the "Theory of Inteligent Design" both are theorys and have science (and yes one does use ancient scripts to add to the support) and niether have been proven 100%.

As this discussion has illustrated, when you get average people together this will be discussed less on the basis of facts and more on the opinions of Religion vs. Secularism or political opion. One thing that is true... both rely on faith.

That's all for me... maybe more if this goes to another discussion.
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Originally Posted by AKSubie View Post
well my opinion is creationism shouldnt be taught in SCIENCE class. a seperate theory class yes. the problem I see with creationism is it is a door way for religion and peoples ability to influence (force) their views onto young impressionable minds without those minds being able to learn for themselves.

Consider this, in a science class:
Teacher is discussing evolution, how species adapt to new surroundings over time, or are products of their surroundings, "lets also not forget these creatures as well as ourselves coudl have been created" lil sally in the corner says "created by who Mr Johnson?" what do you think the "typical" response will be? "aliens" ?? nooo, more likely a form of some higher being from the teachers own personal beliefs. THAT is the rub I see. get ANY religious conotation out of being created and you are golden, however that is likely never to happen..
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
i'm done discussing this with you for now. however, if i had more time i would be happy to discuss it without the FORCING my beliefs on you and vice versa offline.

i in no way plan to dissuade you or even say your thoughts and rationale are incorrect. i just simply disagree. rather than make this into some long drawn out issue in a thread that has nothing to do with this, i digress. i don't really have the time to debate with you regarding science, facts, findings, etc. as Ralph has pointed out, both sides have much SCIENTIFIC evidence to support theories. That is what science is all about after all. It's not about religion, politics or otherwise.

have a good day...

does anyone have any popcorn left??
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Old 11-07-2006, 05:39 PM   #2
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Doesn't seem like much of a debate to me. More like personal choice and the right to personal opinion. I think this might be opening up a can of worms.

Maybe we could get all the Evolution people and all the Intelligent Design people and have a Royal Rumble!!!



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Old 11-07-2006, 06:07 PM   #3
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wow brian..... you have a lot of time on your hands! LOL

maybe a little later, but right now, I'm booked busy with work!
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Old 11-07-2006, 06:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by AKLGT View Post
wow brian..... you have a lot of time on your hands! LOL

maybe a little later, but right now, I'm booked busy with work!
21 days with just nothing. If im not on the computer than I'm on the treadmill downstairs. haha
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Old 11-07-2006, 06:37 PM   #5
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Intelligence is realizing that you know nothing.

I try not to favor knowledge sought through limited perspective at this early point in the human understanding. With that being said I tend to favor the interpretive revisions of research to the comparatively static displays of organized faith. (personally)

What you believe in is far more personal than your public standard of applicable knowledge. Most especially given the many modern variables involved. This is not a burden the public education system is even capable of supporting now or in the near future. It is a moot point.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:16 PM   #6
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every one should just follow Zeus and the other Greek gods again, those were such good times
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:06 PM   #7
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I like boats!
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:11 PM   #8
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I like boats!
That's YOUR opinion. Keep it to yourself!! Don't try and force your beliefs on me!!!!



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Old 11-07-2006, 08:36 PM   #9
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I have the right so say what I want, its a free country and if I want to say that I love Boats. Then I will do so.

You should love boats to.. they have a sharp end that goes forward and birds like to fly beside them....
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Old 11-07-2006, 09:01 PM   #10
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Old 11-07-2006, 09:10 PM   #11
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and some come with the viper v-10 .

Personally, I think that public high schools should offer both evolution and creationism for the students that don't wanna go to a church run school yet still belive in their religion. That is a choice the students should make but by doing so you open the argument of since they offer this class why don't they offer x class? and before you know it there are more classes being offerd than there are teachers. I think that there should be options for the students that have religious belifs and go to public schools but by doing so would creat more problems than it would solve in my opinion.

This argument has been discussed over and over I'm sure in the ASD and is nothing new to them. The ASD is run as impartially as possible but never-the-less, still run by human beings. They still have their beliefs and try as you can, you can never be totally impartial to your beliefs. So for now, those that want to learn and be tought with religous beliefs have the option to go to one of the religious schools or the "regular" high schools until they can mabey, one day, come up with a solution.

Montana
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:17 AM   #12
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in 1951 the catholic church adopted the big bang theory to be in accordance with the bible. the big bang theory is pretty much universally accepted now

/argument of the big bang theory
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:24 AM   #13
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I like boats!
Poseidon liked boats too
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Old 11-08-2006, 01:00 AM   #14
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just as a final thought, I assumed you guys already knew this, but I'm probably wrong.

Teaching Creationism in Public schools is agianst the constitution of the United States of America.
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Old 11-08-2006, 01:11 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by AKLGT
sorry, but many people believe creationism as a scientific theory too. science hasn't disproven this "theory" nor has it disproven "evolution." how can one say that neither could happen?

you cannot say that just because it is a public school you should not teach anything that may have some sort of ties to Christianity or the Bible? then we shouldn't learn about US history or any other history for that matter. if we want a more well rounded education, then teach it ALL, not just what you feel is science. it's no different than people screaming to ONLY teach creationism in the public school
lets make sure we're on the same page here. were talking about creationism and evolution being taught in a public school in a science class right and were not talking about a religion class.

what other matters should science be interested in besides matters of FACT? US history and almost every other history is backed up by evidence created through years of research, different accounts, and numerous books; Christianity on the other hand is taught to be the ultimate truth and is the word of god. Religion can in no way be taught in a scientific setting because it completely rejects the scientific method; it is taught that the bible is the ultimate truth, the word of god. For example, 45% of Americans believe that the universe is less than 10,000 years old, that certainly isn't based on any sound scientific theory or any facts at all.
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Old 11-08-2006, 01:51 AM   #16
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evolution is a THEORY not SCIENCE. If science could prove it we'd know what the missing link was. Uh it wouldn't be missing. Evolution should not be taught in science anymore then creationalism (sp) Both if you will could be considered nothing more then theory. Now I believe in God and creation which yes requires faith. But to believe in science is to believe in the facts... and there are no facts that prove there is no God. There are no facts that prove there was a "big bang" which IMO is a crack pot answer to the question that can not be answered. If anything science proves that there is no way everything could have simply evolved out of "nothing" Evolution is not a proven fact and therefor should not be taught in schools as truth no more then creation.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:20 AM   #17
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evolution is a THEORY not SCIENCE. If science could prove it we'd know what the missing link was. Uh it wouldn't be missing. Evolution should not be taught in science anymore then creationalism (sp) Both if you will could be considered nothing more then theory......
Evolution is theoretical science, with hundreds of millions of years of fossil evidence along with recent advances in genetics indicating that it is a viable explanatory and predictive model. There is much more to learn and to add to the theory, but pretty much the entire scientific community finds it a useful avenue of logical thought and research.

Creationism is an alternate belief system that is found is many religions, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. But I suspect that most folks here might be referring to the Christian creationism belief system.

The point was, I think, that the nature of the US is to avoid teaching or supporting one particular religion's views over another's --i.e., "freedom of religion", while still teaching and pushing the boundaries of the mathematics and sciences that a modern technological society depends on.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:21 AM   #18
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if their only going to teach about creation it should only be about the Greek Gods.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:23 AM   #19
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if their only going to teach about creation it should only be about the Greek Gods.
Better yet a Subaru factory highlighting the evolution of the company. Everyone is happy.

Last edited by 02redwagone; 11-08-2006 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:29 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Mavrik View Post
evolution is a THEORY not SCIENCE. If science could prove it we'd know what the missing link was. Uh it wouldn't be missing. Evolution should not be taught in science anymore then creationalism (sp) Both if you will could be considered nothing more then theory. Now I believe in God and creation which yes requires faith. But to believe in science is to believe in the facts... and there are no facts that prove there is no God. There are no facts that prove there was a "big bang" which IMO is a crack pot answer to the question that can not be answered. If anything science proves that there is no way everything could have simply evolved out of "nothing" Evolution is not a proven fact and therefor should not be taught in schools as truth no more then creation.
you realize gravity is a Theory too? All of science is theories...
Have you people never been outside, or looked at nature? Evolution is as evident as sunshine on a clear day.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:47 AM   #21
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evolution is a THEORY not SCIENCE. If science could prove it we'd know what the missing link was. Uh it wouldn't be missing. Evolution should not be taught in science anymore then creationalism (sp) Both if you will could be considered nothing more then theory. Now I believe in God and creation which yes requires faith. But to believe in science is to believe in the facts... and there are no facts that prove there is no God. There are no facts that prove there was a "big bang" which IMO is a crack pot answer to the question that can not be answered. If anything science proves that there is no way everything could have simply evolved out of "nothing" Evolution is not a proven fact and therefor should not be taught in schools as truth no more then creation.
how can you say it science? its based on over 100 years of research, its a hell of a lot more science than religion and faith are. By definition faith is completely NOT science and has no place in a science classroom.

How are you going to call the big bang theory a crack pot answer when you are going to blindly believe (which is what faith is) in the idea that god created the universe and all living things. yeah there are no facts that prove that the big bang is how the universe was created, but i challenge you to find just 1 shred of evidence that the big bang theory never happened. All observational evidence we have today points to the fact that the big bang probably happened. Either god created the universe and made it look like the big bang happened, or thats how the universe was created. In 1951 the catholic church adopted the big bang theory to be in accordance with the bible.
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:01 AM   #22
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Sooooo, for those that believe in creationism, where did the dinosaurs come from? Cause if God just put the bones there in the ground for sh**s and giggles, he has waaaayyyy to much time on his hands.
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:12 AM   #23
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dino is not proof of evolution. they are a dead species fossilized by the great flood. According to what we christians are taught, there is no new thing under earth that was not created before the flood. This leaves a lot open and suggests its quite possible technology so far advanced from were we are today existed. We're cloning sheep... who knows what could be done.

You want one shred of proof the big bang did not happen. Show me one shred of proof it did?

I'm not catholic and they are not the only religion out there.

As for it being a crack pot idea, I stand by it. I have read many evolution books and grew up in a religious setting. I sat in on debates is school on this and evolution always lost.

I'm "blindly" believing in creation while you are "blindly" believing in a big bang and that you evolved from the missing link the seporates you from crap eating monkeys.

Show me something that proves evolution?

Gravity a theory? No its a proven fact. You just can't prove God in his infinite powers created it with the world or if some big bang created it.

So you challenge me, I return the challenge. You will not believe the bible so I don't need to mention anything from it. The weight is on you.
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:27 AM   #24
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just as a final thought, I assumed you guys already knew this, but I'm probably wrong.

Teaching Creationism in Public schools is agianst the constitution of the United States of America.
Show me where. Like many areas of the US Constitution, Supreme Court Judges are brought in to "interpret" the meanings of passages.

I can point to many decisions that are still hotly contested in both the individual State and Federal Supreme Courts and ALL are interpretations.

You will not find the teaching of creationism in the US Constitution and thus any mention of "Religion and the Federal Government" are up for interpretation.

If a law maker ever wanted to make an Amendment to the US Constitution outlining this (and thus not open to interpretation) it would take years and "Good Luck" getting it to every pass.

You bring up a point that is regularly addressed by Americans however you are mistaken.

I would encourage everyone (this is not a knock on you Danfd) to pick up a copy of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights at Barnes and Nobles (only $4.98). Regardless of political party you agree with it is a great resource.
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Old 11-08-2006, 03:43 AM   #25
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you've clearly never heard of seperation of church and state?

on another note,
dinos fossilized by a flood? I honestly hope this is a joke that just doesnt translate into text... did Noah just not like the dinosuars or what? You want proof of evolution, dont go trying to look for "the missing link" which basically has been found in the earlier species of human, look no farther than animals in your back yard... have you never seen a moth that has EVOLVED to look like it has a large eye, or a humming bird that has EVOLVED to be able to get it's food from flowers, the facts are right in front of you.

Gravity IS a theory, look it up, as is 99.9% of all science.

Next yer gonna try and tell me that the world is only 6 thousand years old and that it's the center of the universe...

Last edited by Danfd; 11-08-2006 at 03:56 AM.
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