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Old 11-08-2006, 09:39 PM   #1
pjhe
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Default twin scroll turbo with dual ball bearing options

what's out there? i've heard garrett makes some...
i'm looking for non-rotated perferrable
and i want a true twin scroll turbo, not a twin scroll header that feeds a standard housing turbo


so what's out there, i'll listen to rotated ideas too as long as they are no bigger then gt30-ish, as personnally i'm interested in spool (full spool by 3800rpms at the lastest and 3200-3400 being the tarket for full spool with it starting around 3000rpms), and big fat torque bands...


so list any and all twin scroll dual ball bearing turbos that are out there and their spool and power characteristics...
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:01 PM   #2
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You can buy a GT30R with a twin scroll turbine housing (.78 A/R) off of atpturbo.com. However that is just the turbo, you'd need to get twin scroll headers, an uppipe, and a downpipe fabbed. Might be able to use something like the APS twinscroll headers and just have to fab the uppipe section.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:10 PM   #3
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i can have plumbing all done at work (god i love my job and mandral benders)
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:58 PM   #4
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thanks for the heads up on that, the gt3071 def seems like it'll be the way to go
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:21 PM   #5
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not sure if this is in your price range but its what you are looking for. everything you need. http://www.automasterofwestchester.c...product_id=117
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:00 AM   #6
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price isn't a problem i'll wait and save...
i'll def have to contact them and see if i can get certain pieces of/from that setup...
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:40 PM   #7
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IMO, the APS TSR70 would be a better kit than the Automaster and cheaper.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:51 PM   #8
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^I agree. It looks like there is a lot more piping on the Automaster header. The APS design is very similar to the Subaru twin-scroll header, where the runners are as short as possible, given the limited space in the engine bay and around the oil pan.

AVO has posted about a stock location twin-scroll series of turbos. They bolt-up to the stock JDM header and twin-scroll downpipe.

APS may also have a twin scroll version of the SR56 in the works, according to some posts in iwsti.

The stock location turbos from IHI that are twin scroll are the VF36, VF37 and VF42. The 36 and 42 are dual ball bearing, according to the MRT site. Power Enterprise has a turbo based off of the VF twin scroll series that incorporates a larger compressor wheel. On my 2004 STi, the VF37 delivers 1 bar at 2700 rpms (at over 5000 ft in elevation), so there is definitely room to add a bigger compressor wheel and still reach your spool goals.

HKS may also have some twin-scroll turbos available. But, these might be hard to get ahold of outside of Japan.
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:36 PM   #9
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thanks for the knowledge alpine!!
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Old 11-09-2006, 03:23 PM   #10
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If you're going 30R, I'd get the 3076 instead of the 3071. Slightly large comp wheel, plus the anti-surge housing.
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Old 11-09-2006, 03:27 PM   #11
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www.rallitek.com has the AVO twin scroll set ups with everything you need.
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Old 11-09-2006, 04:14 PM   #12
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negative on the 3076, that housing doesn't spool as nicely for my application/desire compared to the 3071 housing
the 3076 is a great turbo, but i want insta-spool haha
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:28 PM   #13
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I was going to suggest the twin scroll housing on a 3071r, but apparently i've been beat to the punch!!!

edit: garrett also makes an internally gated twin scroll called the gt32 i believe.
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:49 PM   #14
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you didn't miss the punch by much though i was just looking at the gt32 with both the 42 and 51 wheels...
it'll be a tough tough call between the 3071r and the gt32...
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:53 PM   #15
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whats the advantage to going with a gt32 with an EWG versus using the 3071r which is already designed for an EWG?
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:22 AM   #16
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ok i am also interested in this answer and also where can you get a twin scroll gt32 kit and also is the gt32 and the 3071 stock location? or are they rotated
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:44 AM   #17
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The VF38 and TD04HLA are also stock location twinscroll ball bearing turbos. Titanium turbine shaft as well. Definitely Instaspool®. 1 bar below 2000rpm with a 2.5L.

They aren't terribly large though, but you could stuff a larger compressor in there.

Last edited by nekdut; 11-11-2006 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:17 AM   #18
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neither the 3071r or the gt32 are stock location turbos. To my knowledge, gpmoto makes a gt32 kit as well as crawford (however i just found out the crawford kit is not a true twin scroll setup, as it uses a single up pipe, but it is stock location it looks like). The gt32 can be had as an externally gated setup, but that would add a bit of complexity to an already thought out solution in the form of the internally gated setup, IMHO. The 3071r is a complete custom job, however it may/may not bolt to the twin scroll APS header, but only comes as an EWG setup if you want twin scroll. Both of these turbos can be sourced from atpturbo.com. And in my opinion, if you're going to do that much work and are dead set on twin scroll, spend the extra couple hondo and spring for the dual BB 3071r (or 3076r) twin scroll, and you won't regret it. I believe clark did a test on the gt32 kit and it spooled very respectably i believe. I can't find it now, but i think it had green power with close to stock spool, and the 3071 being a tad more efficient all around (hotside, compressor side and dual BB) it should spool even quicker. (sorry, got long winded)
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:34 AM   #19
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I would wait about three more months on this. There seem to be many, many twin scroll turbo kits which will be released in the very near future (APS, AVO, ATP, etc...) and many have multiple turbos to choose from. I'm sure within 3-4 months test results of some of these kits will be showing up on this forum. You said you can wait so I would wait and see what's available soon, and then if you don't like what you see go the custom kit route you were thinking about.
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:29 AM   #20
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wrxhard you nailed my thinking on the head, there not long winded either just good info... I'm thinking about buying an APS header and having my fab guy do a clone with a different flange on it that'll be gt30r friendly

and silver i'll def be waiting til after the first of the year to start picking up components (to use and admittly copy the design of with minor tweaks for my useage, note to vendors and manufacturers i won't be selling the clones i make, just shortening plumbing length or making the plumbing with with the fmic i plan on using and or with the rotated intake manifold and or using different materials...)
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Old 12-14-2006, 05:32 AM   #21
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i didnt think the GT32 was ball bearing...

I am planning to do a twin scroll with a GT3076r or a GT3582r and I expect to have full boost around 3500 or 3800, respectively, although thats obviously just speculation. There's a thread in the Built Motor forum right now where a guy has a T/S GT40r and is claiming full boost around 4000 rpm... if thats true its really impressive.

Last edited by Wrinkleboi; 12-14-2006 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:00 PM   #22
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[quote=Wrinkleboi;16321476]i didnt think the GT32 was ball bearing...
QUOTE]

it isn't. sorry, i didn't mention that in my rant
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Old 12-14-2006, 03:25 PM   #23
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this was exactly what I use to look for. after doing research, I haven't seen any spool improvements with ball bearing turbos.

whether twin scroll helps is hard to tell. we'll find out when these rotated kits come out.
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:40 PM   #24
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GT32 or twinscroll GT3071R

GT32 - 64mm turbine wheel(76 trim), 71mm compressor (52 trim)
oil cooled, internal wastegate

GT3071R - 60mm turbine wheel (84 trim), 71mm compressor (56 trim), oil & water cooled + Ball bearing CHRA, requires external wastegate

GT3071 compressor can produse more boost pressure (above 17psi) at lower aiflows airflows and flow more HP more efficiently than the GT32...
to boil it all done the GT3071R twin scroll (based on GT30R technology) should easily out spool the GT32 as well as out perform on top end..

Last edited by WaXed; 12-14-2006 at 08:44 PM. Reason: info
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaniegenie View Post
this was exactly what I use to look for. after doing research, I haven't seen any spool improvements with ball bearing turbos.

whether twin scroll helps is hard to tell. we'll find out when these rotated kits come out.
is ball bearing better than journal bearing?

there is some information around to say it spools up faster.... lower friction
quite believable and I guess this is still debateable

A big benefit from Ball Bearings is they can take thrust loading.... I believe this is a big plus for a turbo... better oil sealing at the end of the journals and less friction from thrust washers...

All the high end IHI VF turbo's are BB... I think IHI do this for good reasons? it just costs more to produce....

I think if you got a bicyle with ball bearing wheels and took it for a ride then rode one with non ball bearings you will quickly realise it takes less effort with BB...

I personally believe once the turbo is spooled and on boost the difference is "negligible" as the energy lost on shaft friction is very small in relation to the actual power going through the shaft.. turbine/compressor operating efficiencies would be making the differences then
I think dyno plots would show this which gives the idea of no gain for Ball Bearing
but we are talking about improvement to spooling which is all important for a high performance street driver

Last edited by WaXed; 12-14-2006 at 08:58 PM. Reason: spelling
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